How the hell do you learn Jumpin' Jack Flash?

[BigRedX]

I would have thought that the most obvious explanation for the tuning would have been that the first guitar take was done without any reference tuning other than it was in tune with itself, and then everything had to follow on from that.

In these days where everyone has a digital tuner, we forget that when JJF was recorded the only tuning references around were tuning forks, pitch pipes or if you were lucky a properly tuned piano in the recording studio. And TBH none of them really had the guaranteed accuracy of a decent digital tuner that we all take for granted now.

Plus there's a whole load of other factors that come into play. If you include a non-tuneable instrument in the track then everything has to take it's tuning from that. My first band back in the late 70s use two air-powered chord organs. Neither was at "concert pitch" and neither was in tune with the other. Which ever one sounded best on the track was the one we used, and we would just retune to match. That meant that none of our recordings were in "concert pitch" and not all of them were off by the same amount.

To the OP either use some software to retune the track to the key you want it to be it, or retune your bass to mach the recording and quit worrying!

Edited December 1, 2010 by BigRedX

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='KevB' post='1043437' date='Dec 1 2010, 10:09 AM']If the sheet music is in B and when you hear it it's somewhere below B but not quite proper Bb either then they would have to have slowed the tape down to get that effect.[/quote]

If time alteration were the culprit, it's more likely (in this circumstance) that they played it in B flat and it was sped up until it sounded nearer B, then someone else did the notation and assumed it was just B out of tune. It's always possible they tuned down a semi-tone originally. I don't really know much about the stones though so that's just hypothetical.

[quote name='essexbasscat' post='1043489' date='Dec 1 2010, 10:44 AM']I never saw an electronic tuner until more recent years. Until then, I'd guess EVERYONE tuned every musical instrument by ear alone. I've come across tons of recordings from the 60's and 70's that are 'off' by standard tuning. Just re-tune the bass.[/quote]

I think this is more likely. So long as everyone's in tune with each other and the vocalist is ok, it doesn't really matter whether or not A=440Hz. Concert pitch is just a standard, it doesn't make the music sound better in any way. There's even relatively recent recordings I've heard (can't think of any at the moment, but I remember hearing them in college) where the musicians have tuned up to each other and they're not in concert pitch.

[JTUK]

OP...just follow the main gtr riff and then root notes with a step between.

I really don't get the obsession with following a line perzactly...
It is more important to get your line to work with your drums.

That way, you sound instantly tight and you just check the format of the song and you're done
.... and move onto the next song.

[essexbasscat]

Seem to remember from Orchestral days that everyone tuned to the pitch of the Oboe, as that instrument's tuning can't be altered. If this is correct, then tuning would pretty much be fluent from place to place anyway.

Training for the ear. Great stuff.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1043490' date='Dec 1 2010, 10:45 AM']I would have thought that the most obvious explanation for the tuning would have been that the first guitar take was done without any reference tuning other than it was in tune with itself, and then everything had to follow on from that.[/quote]

And, of course, that could change over the course of multiple 'takes' of the song.

Tony Visconti says that Marc Bolan never used any sort of reference tuner and always tuned up as the recording sessions went on. No matter what his initial tuning, by the end of the session he'd be at least a tone higher and each successive take would be microtones higher than the previous one.

Apparently it made doing subsequent overdubs a complete nightmare.

[Marvin]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1043541' date='Dec 1 2010, 11:12 AM']OP...just follow the main gtr riff and then root notes with a step between.

I really don't get the obsession with following a line perzactly...
It is more important to get your line to work with your drums.

That way, you sound instantly tight and you just check the format of the song and you're done
.... and move onto the next song.[/quote]

It was the end of a bad day and trying to fit too much in at the end of it. Should have gone to bed really
It's a straightforward song. Whoever played the bass on the track didn't get too fancy with it so it's no great shakes to play something that sounds right and tight.
Cheers

[JTUK]

ha ha... it is The Stones, they can still sound awful now so everyone just ditches that reference and does their own thing.
Of course, some abortions back then took on a character all of their own...and you can't get near it.

Try some old blues dwellers style...impossible, a lot of the time.

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Low End Bee' post='1043328' date='Dec 1 2010, 08:58 AM']I used to have this problem a lot back in the days of black & white and horseless carriages. When I was trying to learn a song by playing along with the record and I found it was out of pitch or speeded up to a stupid key like Bb,[/quote]
Probably due to the then state-of-the-art rotational accuracy of the gramophone player

[Cat Burrito]

[quote name='icastle' post='1043225' date='Dec 1 2010, 01:24 AM']Easy - just retune your bass to the tune and put it back when you're done... [/quote]
Absolutely! A lot of these older recordings are like this, as said. A bit annoying but not the end of the world. It's only Wyman after all, I'm pretty sure there are no advanced harmonics on unusual frets

[Low End Bee]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='1043576' date='Dec 1 2010, 11:35 AM']Probably due to the then state-of-the-art rotational accuracy of the gramophone player [/quote]

Listen. Those wax cylinders rotated very accurately if I wound the handle in time.

[casapete]

Makes sense guitar wise for it to be in B too - chorus opens up those D, A and E chords nicely,
especially when in open tunings. A classic recording for me, and not an electric in sight apparently.

There's a great bit in the 'Stones in the Park' where the band are tuning up in a backstage caravan with
their ears against the guitar necks, moments before going out to play in front of 200,000 people! So if you
want to hear the Stones really out of tune...........

Anyone any thoughts on Keef's biog? Am just reading it now, and generally disappointed with most of it.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='casapete' post='1043653' date='Dec 1 2010, 12:14 PM']Anyone any thoughts on Keef's biog? Am just reading it now, and generally disappointed with most of it.[/quote]

Just about to start Chapter 6 and enjoying it. It's a very subjective account (obviously) rather than a particularly historical approach but, hey!, it's [i][b]his [/b][/i]life.

It helps if you've already read one of the better biographies of the Rolling Stones.

[casapete]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='1043874' date='Dec 1 2010, 02:59 PM']Just about to start Chapter 6 and enjoying it. It's a very subjective account (obviously) rather than a particularly historical approach but, hey!, it's [i][b]his [/b][/i]life.

It helps if you've already read one of the better biographies of the Rolling Stones.[/quote]


Yeh, I've read a few. For me Keith's book sounds just like a rambling conversation - all the time I'm reading it
I find myself hearing his voice! Some stuff I did n't know, some of which I'm surprised by (his account of his son's death etc).
Whatever, still a legend in my eyes.

[spinynorman]

[quote name='Marvin' post='1043121' date='Nov 30 2010, 11:10 PM']The damn thing's out of tune FFS. I thought it was punk that was played primarily out of tune. I knew there was a reason I hated the Stones


/rant[/quote]

Paint It Black is the same problem.

For JJF, find an MP3 of a live version by Johnny Winter. There'll be some proper bass on those.

[chris_b]

[quote name='spinynorman' post='1043930' date='Dec 1 2010, 03:25 PM']....For JJF, find an MP3 of a live version by Johnny Winter. There'll be some proper bass on those....[/quote]
I believe that'll be Tommy Shannon on bass.

[Legion]

Get a fretless and intonate wherever you like

[YouMa]

The correct way on guitar is very bizarre it involves open tuning which is then dropped again slightly,i have never tried playing it on bass but i should imagine the tuning could be slightly altered.

[Michaelg]

its quite an easy track

[Slipperydick]

[quote name='casapete' post='1043653' date='Dec 1 2010, 12:14 PM']Makes sense guitar wise for it to be in B too - chorus opens up those D, A and E chords nicely,
especially when in open tunings. A classic recording for me, and not an electric in sight apparently.

There's a great bit in the 'Stones in the Park' where the band are tuning up in a backstage caravan with
their ears against the guitar necks, moments before going out to play in front of 200,000 people! So if you
want to hear the Stones really out of tune...........

[b]Anyone any thoughts on Keef's biog? Am just reading it now, and generally disappointed with most of it.[/b][/quote]

Does ramble on a bit, I had to read it a couple of pages at a time. One of those books you read in the toilet...or is that just me ???

[JTUK]

[quote name='Michaelg' post='1043993' date='Dec 1 2010, 04:18 PM']its quite an easy track[/quote]


errr..not like that

[casapete]

[quote name='Slipperydick' post='1044018' date='Dec 1 2010, 04:52 PM']Does ramble on a bit, I had to read it a couple of pages at a time. One of those books you read in the toilet...or is that just me ???[/quote]


Yup, agreed.

[thebeat]

I've just had a llisten to the version on 40 licks and it doesn't sound so very far out of tune... if at all.

[lojo]

[quote name='Marvin' post='1043121' date='Nov 30 2010, 11:10 PM']The damn thing's out of tune FFS. I thought it was punk that was played primarily out of tune. I knew there was a reason I hated the Stones


/rant[/quote]


I find occasionally when learning stuff by ear off you tube etc you have to tweak your tuning slightly to come in line with the audio

Its not a problem, just tweak your tuning to suit the song you are listening to

[YouMa]

[quote name='thebeat' post='1044053' date='Dec 1 2010, 06:11 PM']I've just had a llisten to the version on 40 licks and it doesn't sound so very far out of tune... if at all.[/quote]


Its in tune,just not a traditional tuning,for guitar anyway. I heard a story that bill wyman said he was upset he never recieved any credit for the bass part.

[spinynorman]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1043950' date='Dec 1 2010, 03:46 PM']I believe that'll be Tommy Shannon on bass.[/quote]

Would be great if it was, powered Johnny Winter and SRV.

However, isn't this Jon Paris?



Ditto this, with a nice trick at 6:40 ish, if you can pull it off