Neck Widths

[Patster1969]

Hi all
Had a chat with Charic about this at the Bash at the weekend & wondered if anyone else has had a similar issue.
Have a CV Jazz & after playing for a bit, often have pain in my thumb joint & cramp-like symptoms in my wrist/forearm.
Charic advised me that he had had a problem like this but had pretty much eliminated it by swapping his thinner width necked bass for a Fender P with a wider neck. Had a go on his P at the bash (thanks for that mate, much appreciated) & it did feel more comfortable, and the neck did seem to fit my hand size better.
However, spoke to my teacher about this & he didn't feel it would make a huge difference if I changed my bass to something with the wider neck as he hadn't heard this from any of his other pupils, and the problems would probably lessen over time with practice and increased stamina in my fretting hand/arm (as I have been playing for less than 2 years).
What I don't want to do is buy something else and after a few weeks find that it's made no difference to the issues I've had, so do I try it or perserver with the Jazz neck?
Any help given is much appreciated.

Pat

[chris_b]

Sounds like you should be relaxing. You're tensing up and changing the bass won't help that.

[Lozz196]

I experienced something similar when I bought a bass with a wider neck than I was used to. First couple of days my left hand was "achy" however it soon stopped, as I got used to it. From then on, I had no more problems. May be worth persevering for a bit more, but if it continues, then look for the wider neck.

[xgsjx]

I actually get the exact same thing as yourself. Both thumb joints ache as does my wrist.
I tried changing my playing position & how I hold the bass & this helped significantly, but I still get it (been for a few years now).

I think the thin neck is a contributing factor. Anyone know where I can get a deeper neck for an ibby.

[Mog]

[quote name='Patster1969' post='1043330' date='Dec 1 2010, 09:00 AM']Hi all
Had a chat with Charic about this at the Bash at the weekend & wondered if anyone else has had a similar issue.
Have a CV Jazz & after playing for a bit, often have pain in my thumb joint & cramp-like symptoms in my wrist/forearm.
Charic advised me that he had had a problem like this but had pretty much eliminated it by swapping his thinner width necked bass for a Fender P with a wider neck. Had a go on his P at the bash (thanks for that mate, much appreciated) & it did feel more comfortable, and the neck did seem to fit my hand size better.
However, spoke to my teacher about this & he didn't feel it would make a huge difference if I changed my bass to something with the wider neck as he hadn't heard this from any of his other pupils, and the problems would probably lessen over time with practice and increased stamina in my fretting hand/arm (as I have been playing for less than 2 years).
What I don't want to do is buy something else and after a few weeks find that it's made no difference to the issues I've had, so do I try it or perserver with the Jazz neck?
Any help given is much appreciated.

Pat[/quote]

Its most likely hand positioning and how the bass is sitting. Each bass is different but none should cause your hand to cramp up to that extent. Where the bass sits on your body has as much influence on strain as fretting hand technique. A P bass neck might have a greater radius but the neck dive is really going to put extra strain on your fretting hand.
I suggest trying to as many hand positions and strap lengths as possible until you find a combination that eases the strain.

As an aside, can I ask if your fretting hand technique is a result of lessons or are you self thought?
I ask because a lad who just started playing bass a few months ago came to me at a gig recently with something very similar. When he showed me his fretting technique which he had picked up from lessons the answer was obvious. His lessons were practiced sitting down and his bass is slung down to his knees when hes playing at home or with the band. I cant understand why supposed teachers never cop onto this?

[Low End Bee]

I've got two Precisions. One with a standard neck and one with a jazz neck. I get a bit of left hand fatigue if I use the Jazz necked one long before I would on the standard one.

Teachers don't always know everything.

[essexbasscat]

A few things to consider:

- The tilt,height and angle of the bass relative to your body will influence the angles of your shoulder, elbow, wrist and fingers. Do you conciously choose an informed best position and strive to maintain it from instrument to instrument ?

- Establishing a grip on a thinner radius object can encourage a something like a pinch grip, commonly more between the thumb and the index finger. A larger radius object may encourage a different kind of grip, where the thumb migrates more towards the little finger.
If the thumb position is changing relative to the fingers with altering radius, the position of the thumb joints will also alter.

Try something for an illustration. Grip a pencil as you would fretting a bass neck and note where the thumb is relative to the fingers and the palm of your hand. Now grip something with a bigger radius (e.g. a TV remote control?) and again note the position of your thumg relative to the fingers and the palm of your hand. Any difference ?

Now try the same exercise with different bass necks. Note the cnanging positions of the wrist, thumb, fingers etc. Are the fingers flatter on larger necks ?

Just some food for thought

Good luck with your enquiries

T

[xgsjx]

I don't know any basses with a neck as thin as my TV remote, let alone a pencil


All kidding aside, good analogy & advice there.


Quick edit just to say I tried your theory with my mobile phone & a camera lens. Holding the phone in a fretting position put's my thumb naturally towards my index finger, holding the lens my thumb went towards my ring finger.

Edited December 1, 2010 by xgsjx

[Noisyjon]

I used to get the aching thumb and forearm but only at gigs. I found it was down to tensing up and gripping too hard (ooh er Matron!) due to adrenalin, excitement, etc.
I found doing a light warm routine helped no end as well as being mindful of it while playing.

Also the difference in neck widths is only a few mm so surely that won't make that much of a difference?


edit: spelling!

Edited December 1, 2010 by jonthebass

[neepheid]

[quote name='jonthebass' post='1043553' date='Dec 1 2010, 11:23 AM']Also the difference in neck widths is only a few mm so surely that won't make that muck of a difference?[/quote]

You would think that, but skinny necks feel weird to me to the point where I find it distracting. It's not simply width - I can get along fine with Jazz width necks (38mm at the nut) as long as they have some depth to them (like a Warwick Rockbass Corvette I had many moons ago - narrow but deep) - I can't explain it.

[essexbasscat]

[quote name='xgsjx' post='1043545' date='Dec 1 2010, 11:14 AM']I don't know any basses with a neck as thin as my TV remote, let alone a pencil


All kidding aside, good analogy & advice there.


Quick edit just to say I tried your theory with my mobile phone & a camera lens. Holding the phone in a fretting position put's my thumb naturally towards my index finger, holding the lens my thumb went towards my ring finger.[/quote]


Illustrates the changing thumb position with different grasp. Have you tried the test with two cylindrical /tubular objects, one thinner than the other ? they would be more representative of different width bass necks.

[charic]

[quote name='Patster1969' post='1043330' date='Dec 1 2010, 09:00 AM']Hi all
Had a chat with Charic about this at the Bash at the weekend & wondered if anyone else has had a similar issue.
Have a CV Jazz & after playing for a bit, often have pain in my thumb joint & cramp-like symptoms in my wrist/forearm.
Charic advised me that he had had a problem like this but had pretty much eliminated it by swapping his thinner width necked bass for a Fender P with a wider neck. Had a go on his P at the bash (thanks for that mate, much appreciated) & it did feel more comfortable, and the neck did seem to fit my hand size better.
However, spoke to my teacher about this & he didn't feel it would make a huge difference if I changed my bass to something with the wider neck as he hadn't heard this from any of his other pupils, and the problems would probably lessen over time with practice and increased stamina in my fretting hand/arm (as I have been playing for less than 2 years).
What I don't want to do is buy something else and after a few weeks find that it's made no difference to the issues I've had, so do I try it or perserver with the Jazz neck?
Any help given is much appreciated.

Pat[/quote]


Hi Mate,
Absolutely no problems on letting you have a bash on the pbass. It's what bass bash's are for. I had the exact same issue as you (and noticed we had pretty much the same size hands). Originally it was on my Peavey Millenium BXP. VERY thin neck, obviously I picked it out before I was much of a player at all. Once I had developed my technique I fount that my wrist and forearm would ache over time much like you described. For this reason I can't really play many thin necked basses.

IMHO if something feels more natural then it is going to give you a better starting point to build on. You need tools to suit you.

Having said this, why not see if there is someone local to yourself with plenty of basses to try? All the better if you can alternate between yours and those.

[quote name='Mog' post='1043498' date='Dec 1 2010, 10:49 AM']Its most likely hand positioning and how the bass is sitting. Each bass is different but none should cause your hand to cramp up to that extent.[/quote]

It's a possibility (and I'm no expert) but Pats playing style seemed fine when I checked it out. It's not really a cramp to be honest, more of a dull ache. You could carry on fine but you know something isn't quite right.

[quote name='Mog' post='1043498' date='Dec 1 2010, 10:49 AM']A P bass neck might have a greater radius but the neck dive is really going to put extra strain on your fretting hand.[/quote]

Neckdive? From a pbass? I can guarantee mine has none whatsoever. Nor have any that I recall trying.

[Patster1969]

Some v helpful info, much appreciated.

Fretting hand position has been picked up from lessons tbh Mog, but I always stand when playing at home & at lessons, so would have guitar at same high level pretty much all of the time. Have tried a few different strap lengths - too low & I felt that I was overstretching, and too high & felt that I was cramping my entire upper body up, so have settled for a happy medium. As you said, teachers don't know everything & my teacher is not a specific bass teacher, so I think he sees more guitar players than bass players - he's still sooooo much better than me though

From reading some of the other forum queries, I have purposely tilted the neck higher than before as I did notice that I had my fretting wrist at a more acute angle than was comfy, although from doing this, have noticed a bit more neckdive on the Jazz - more experimentation required I reckon! I have also tried to not grip the neck quite as much with my thumb, which has also helped to some extent.

Also tried Essexbasscat's theory using my mobile & glasses case (which is about twice the width of the phone) & did notice that my thumb was almost level with my index finger with the glasses case, but with the mobile was almost level with my middle finger & had a more pronounced angle on the joint where the thumb meets the hand - might be why my thumb joint is more painful?

Might try your suggestion Charic and pop into the Andertons near me to try a number of different neck sizes against the Jazz. As I said to you on Saturday, did try a few different basses when I bought the Jazz but might not have experimented enough with neck sizes - think I looked at thinner necked basses thinking that they would be easier to play. As you said above, it is more of a dull ache than pain but it definitely slows your fretting down.
BTW, defo sounds dodgy that we may have compared hand sizes

Edited December 1, 2010 by Patster1969

[RussFM]

I played a Jazz in my punk band for a couple of years without any problems, as soon as I joined a country band and started moving around the neck more I got pains in my forearm/wrist. Don't have it with the Spector or Ibanez, just the Jazz. I assume it's from the profile of the neck, because the Spector and Ibanez are thinner.

[Stewart]

Had the same problem exactly - had to get rid of my super-slinky Doug Wimbish Ibanez
Everything (4-string) I have now has got a P neck on it - no more problems

[Mog]

[quote name='charic' post='1043671' date='Dec 1 2010, 12:30 PM']Neckdive? From a pbass? I can guarantee mine has none whatsoever. Nor have any that I recall trying.[/quote]

All the P's I've come across have, could be because I use a strap with a free running shoulder pad. Fairly common complaint IME.

[charic]

[quote name='Mog' post='1043916' date='Dec 1 2010, 03:18 PM']All the P's I've come across have, could be because I use a strap with a free running shoulder pad. Fairly common complaint IME.[/quote]

Ah that may explain it, I use a fairly wide leather strap which is slightly rough on the inside

[Mog]

[quote name='charic' post='1043924' date='Dec 1 2010, 03:22 PM']Ah that may explain it, I use a fairly wide leather strap which is slightly rough on the inside [/quote]
Thought so, the guitarist I play with uses the same on his SG. Cant take to the way they cling to your clothes. Suppose its like a new pair of underwear, at first its constrictive......