How do you react when the engineer doesn't do your set-up as you want?

[ThomBassmonkey]

As per title really, just saw someone else (who uses quite an extravagant recording set-up to be fair ) say that with a new engineer they probably won't be able to use it?

What do you do when a sound engineer says no?

It's happened to me a couple of times, I play a 'wick through a GK, so it's a pretty distinctive sounding set-up, the last couple of times I've been in the studio the engineer's DI'd me with a Sansamp and sent a link through to the amp (just on distortion last time) then mic'd the cab. I trust that he's going to get a brilliant sound so I haven't made too much of a fuss (though I have made a point of telling him I wasn't too impressed) but it's annoying that instead of sounding like my rig (especially when I'm a GK endorsee), it's just another Sansamp DI'd tone. The worst part is that he wasn't even prepared to try my rig (I had to put my foot down to get it on the recording at all), it just struck me as lazy because he wanted me to just plug into the DI on whatever settings he always uses and get it done.

[crez5150]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1044376' date='Dec 1 2010, 09:40 PM']As per title really, just saw someone else (who uses quite an extravagant recording set-up to be fair ) say that with a new engineer they probably won't be able to use it?

What do you do when a sound engineer says no?

It's happened to me a couple of times, I play a 'wick through a GK, so it's a pretty distinctive sounding set-up, the last couple of times I've been in the studio the engineer's DI'd me with a Sansamp and sent a link through to the amp (just on distortion last time) then mic'd the cab. I trust that he's going to get a brilliant sound so I haven't made too much of a fuss (though I have made a point of telling him I wasn't too impressed) but it's annoying that instead of sounding like my rig (especially when I'm a GK endorsee), it's just another Sansamp DI'd tone. The worst part is that he wasn't even prepared to try my rig (I had to put my foot down to get it on the recording at all), it just struck me as lazy because he wanted me to just plug into the DI on whatever settings he always uses and get it done.[/quote]

If you were paying for this recording...... I'd tell him to faaack right off....

[Beedster]

[quote name='crez5150' post='1044380' date='Dec 1 2010, 09:43 PM']If you were paying for this recording...... I'd tell him to faaack right off....[/quote]

+1, if you're paying, it's yours and the band's call, not the engineer's, if you're not happy with the sound, he's not doing his job. However, you'd need to talk through the pros and cons with him, don't simply say "I want it this way". He knows his gear and his room, and may have learned through years of experience that in the majority of cases, the way he's working gets the best results with bass. He may not be right in your particular case, but you'll probably need to get him on side to get the tone you want.

C

[Mog]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1044376' date='Dec 1 2010, 09:40 PM']As per title really, just saw someone else (who uses quite an extravagant recording set-up to be fair ) say that with a new engineer they probably won't be able to use it?

What do you do when a sound engineer says no?

It's happened to me a couple of times, I play a 'wick through a GK, so it's a pretty distinctive sounding set-up, the last couple of times I've been in the studio the engineer's DI'd me with a Sansamp and sent a link through to the amp (just on distortion last time) then mic'd the cab. I trust that he's going to get a brilliant sound so I haven't made too much of a fuss (though I have made a point of telling him I wasn't too impressed) but it's annoying that instead of sounding like my rig (especially when I'm a GK endorsee), it's just another Sansamp DI'd tone. The worst part is that he wasn't even prepared to try my rig (I had to put my foot down to get it on the recording at all), it just struck me as lazy because he wanted me to just plug into the DI on whatever settings he always uses and get it done.[/quote]

I reckon thats me! Not really uncommon in the metal circles to record highs through a guitar head.
I'd love to say feck off too but time and cash are against us on this one so i suppose I just have to deal with it.
I agree with the lads though, if you're paying for it, its your call.

[Cat Burrito]

[quote name='Beedster' post='1044396' date='Dec 1 2010, 09:58 PM']+1, if you're paying, it's yours and the band's call, not the engineer's, if you're not happy with the sound, he's not doing his job. However, you'd need to talk through the pros and cons with him, don't simply say "I want it this way". He knows his gear and his room, and may have learned through years of experience that in the majority of cases, the way he's working gets the best results with bass. He may not be right in your particular case, but you'll probably need to get him on side to get the tone you want.

C[/quote]
I'm kind of in agreement here. Ultimately I think studio engineers tend to know their set ups and we tend to know our live sound. Obviously if he is making you sound different to how you hoped to sound then it is an issue. However I always go into the studio with an open mind and even bring in CDs of sounds I like sometimes to get the idea across.

The engineer changed a few of my basses around from what I had planned last time and the overall impression is that I am happy

[ThomBassmonkey]

Well the way they record bass does sound brilliant, that's why I didn't make a fuss. But it's not *my* sound, and it does hit me in the face every time I listen to the songs we've recorded there (though I know no one else would notice or care even if they did).

I think one of the things about working in the studio (and I say this from experience of being the other side of the desk too) is that a lot of people (it particularly seems to be bassists and doesn't generally apply to people that go on forums to discuss their bass playing/gear) don't know their arse from their elbow when it comes to gear. Bassists tend to get something with 4 strings and something that's big and makes things rattle around. I can understand if you're working with that kind of bassist a lot, it's easier to just DI rather than let them spend 20 minutes in the booth making their sound woolier than a sheep and so loud your teeth are rattling through the sound proofed wall. We're not like that though, I do have a huge rig, but it's always controlled instead of cranked.

It is annoying when the response to "I don't like Sansamps, I have my own sound and like to stick with that rather than sound like every other bassist" is "the Sansamp is tried and tested" without any other real justification though. I know the way recording is done digitally now gives a lot of versatility to the sound once it's in the computer, but I'm sure not everyone wants to sound like they're playing through an Ampeg on the way in.

[dangerboy]

I'd never take a DI. Personally I think it's lazy. I let people set their tone how they want, then mic it. For all instruments.

[charic]

He should have done yours and his way at the same time. Minimal hassle and versatility in heaps.

[Commando Jack]

It definitely sounds lazy. If its on your dime then he should have at least justified the DI by A/Bing the mic'd cab with the sansamp, pointing out why you couldn't use your rig. Why not just record both i.e. the sound you want and the DI for a safety in case your sound doesn't work in the mix? It's not like he's only got one input.

[mike257]

I guess it depends on your recording situation too - more often than not, I'm on a tight budget recording, so a tight schedule too. Did you have time for him to stop and experiment with your sound? Would the overall benefit to the recording be as much as spending that time on getting the drum kit sounding better in the room, or on tracking other things?

Even when you're paying an engineer, they've got to make these judgement calls because they've got to hand you a finished product within the time you're paying for. As you said, the bass sound he got is 'brilliant' - would the record have sounded better as a whole to your audience if he'd taken an hour away from other things to work on getting a different bass tone instead of the great sounding one he tracked?

[Low End Bee]

I use my Sansamp DI because I like the sound and I know my settings well.
However if you're paying for it you should have it done however you want. Maybe mic and sansamp and hear how the seperate tracks sound to you and then make the call as a compromise?

[xilddx]

I listen to the engineer's POV, and make a decision. If I don't like what I hear, I can be quite forceful in asserting that I will need to do it my way but I am happy to take a feed out and go direct as an additional track, to satisfy the engineer's sense of safety.

One engineer wanted me to go direct via a little bit of rack compression, then later, when I wasn't there, reamp it through a vintage Fender Bassman head. Once I had cleaned my sick off the floor, I explained I would be using my POD. He took a direct feed from a split signal through a passive DI box before my bass hit the POD as an additional track anyway, but later said he used the POD sound mostly, although on one song he used the DI track, my tone sounded like Anthony Jackson's or something, it was ok actually, but nothing like me.

I've never had any issues though, and so far engineers have concured that my sound is good.

[Noisyjon]

[quote name='silddx' post='1044873' date='Dec 2 2010, 11:52 AM']One engineer wanted me to go direct via a little bit of rack compression, then later, when I wasn't there, reamp it through a vintage Fender Bassman head. Once I had cleaned my sick off the floor, I explained I would be using my POD....[/quote]

Love it Nige

Yeah, Why not record the mic'd amp & the D.I. with the Sansamp? At the cost of just 1 more track, well worth it IMO.
I tried mic'ing my Barefaced Compact with an AKG D25 and D.I'ing it last time I recorded and the mic sounded phenominal...

[BassBod]

All depends who's paying...and the level of the studio....timescale...how long to lunch. For most of my project sessions I'm perfectly happy to just use a Sansamp. I've used one for years so I have my setting options burned into memory. I can actually set one up in the dark...and I've had to.

But, I don't have a signature sound, I'm usually trying to fit in with whatever situation I find myself in and that can be anything from "polite" dinner jazz through to blues rock. If its an "expensive" project I'll take a posh rack preamp or two, with a decent passive DI. But I'd use something else if I was asked to, and it seemed a decent quality (Avalon, Countryman etc).

I'll never get into a scrap with an engineer, if at all possible. I haven't ever (in at least 20 years) miked a cab for a studio session.

[EdwardHimself]

I guess a lot of this depends on time/budget. Do you have the time to be messing around with micing up guitar and bass amps? If you do then great but if you've just been looking for doing a recording on a small budget then really best just stick with what he says. Also the problem a lot of musicians have is that they want "their" sound on the record without any consideration for the sound of the recording as a whole. You said that in your opinion the sound you have would have complemented the record which is great. But i think what you need to try and do is take yourself out of being the bass player and just put yourself in the situation of someone listening to the album and ask yourself: do you really think it would have made that much of a huge improvement to the sound of the album?

Next time if you have the time/budget to facilitate it and you really think it will sound good not just in the sense of a bass player but in the context of the album as a whole then by all means ask the engineer if you can have a good go at properly setting up the bass amp and miking it up and everything. But for now, try not to let it worry you or get on your nerves too much. If you think the album sounds good in terms of just being an outside listener listening to it then really that's all that matters.

Edited December 2, 2010 by EdwardHimself

[xilddx]

[quote name='EdwardHimself' post='1045066' date='Dec 2 2010, 01:44 PM']I guess a lot of this depends on time/budget. Do you have the time to be messing around with micing up guitar and bass amps? If you do then great but if you've just been looking for doing a recording on a small budget then really best just stick with what he says. [b]Also the problem a lot of musicians have is that they want "their" sound on the record without any consideration for the sound of the recording as a whole.[/b] You said that in your opinion the sound you have would have complemented the record which is great. But i think what you need to try and do is take yourself out of being the bass player and just put yourself in the situation of someone listening to the album and ask yourself: do you really think it would have made that much of a huge improvement to the sound of the album?

Next time if you have the time/budget to facilitate it and you really think it will sound good not just in the sense of a bass player but in the context of the album as a whole then by all means ask the engineer if you can have a good go at properly setting up the bass amp and miking it up and everything. But for now, try not to let it worry you or get on your nerves too much. If you think the album sounds good in terms of just being an outside listener listening to it then really that's all that matters.[/quote]
Those sorts of people shouldn't be in the studio in the first place. probably not in the band either

[bassoctopus]

As a player and producer/engineer, I'd ask if you trust the engineer in question. If yes, then let him get on with it. If no or don't know, I suggest you familiarise yourself with some of his/their previous work before going much further.

With my producer/engineer hat on, if a player was getting really arsey and I thought he/she was wrong, I'd record a decent DI and their amp signal, knowing that I could fall back in an emergency using the DI and re-amping when they weren't there.

Luckily for me, I don't find myself in these situations. It isn't my day job and I can pick the people I want to work with

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='EdwardHimself' post='1045066' date='Dec 2 2010, 01:44 PM']Also the problem a lot of musicians have is that they want "their" sound on the record without any consideration for the sound of the recording as a whole.[/quote]

This is half the problem, I want "my" sound on the recording. As I've said in previous posts, I know the engineer was good and I stepped back rather than cause a problem (it was a fairly expensive 2 day recording session for one track, we had the time to sort out my amp and we did use the distorted channel with a mic in front of the cab to thicken out the sound) because I trusted that it would be a good sound over all. It does irk me though that it's not my sound.

We also do our own recordings (our singer had a fairly good home studio and now has a studio locally) and with him I always use amp DI and mic, most of the singal comes from the mic though so I know that in a recorded context, my amp still fits and it's my sound.

I don't think the sound is terrible, I don't think the guy who did it is a [insert offensive name] and I would work with him again, it's just one of those things, like when you make a bit of fret noise in a recorded track that no one else notices until they ask why you've bitten your fingernails down to the first knuckle after a couple of listens.

Totally agree with silddx, what matters is the sound as a whole, there's no point having the 4 people on stage/in the studio loving the sound if the 300 people out front or the people listening to the recording just hear mush.

[LiamPodmore]

[quote name='BassBod' post='1045049' date='Dec 2 2010, 01:36 PM']I haven't ever (in at least 20 years) miked a cab for a studio session.[/quote]

Last Time i went in studio (First time ever actually) the guy took a DI from my combo, and miked it aswell, i let him set a good tone as he knew better than me, overall i'm very pleased with the sound, tweaked it slightly and using it as my new live sound, really punchy now, just like i want. Listen to it on the links in my sig if you like, it coulda been abit higher in the overall mix though

[BassBod]

Just to be clear - I'd never say DI only is the way to go. Micing cabs takes time, can be hit or miss and sometimes causes problems for other instruments. DI only is really as much for control and speed as sound quality or tone. It gets the job done.

One day I'll have five whole tracks to myself...he he he

[daz]

You pay the bills, you call the shots. Or you take your business elsewhere. It wouldnt take too many doing that to bring the impudent pup to heel.

[Mog]

just been talking to the other two guys in the band. it seems we're going down the analogue road with the one. everything recorded to tape, live takes for that vintage sound. looks like its time to get a 60's pbass and a tv 15. plus a mortgage for mastering!

[pantherairsoft]

Your choice.. Unless your asking an engineer to help create 'a sound', then trust him.

Out of interest, knowing your local to me, which studio is it (PM me if you prefer)... As I'm recording in Feb and want to make sure I perfect my argument if we're recording at the same place

[Fullmetal]

Just wanted to chuck my opinion into the fray.

I did some recording a few months back, first time recording with my current band and we were recording a 4 track EP. We never expected the best quality recordings but the quality is still pretty damn awesome. I took my Ampeg with me so I could get the sound I like, but the producers equipment didn't seem to react well when we DI'd the Ampeg. The guy didn't have a bass cabinet so we couldn't mic it up, he just put me through a Sansamp BDDI.

Now I wasn't really happy about the new setup, but it was time saving and I ended up being able to dial in a half decent tone. I was happy with the recordings until we got the mixed versions back and I realised that my bass actually sounded incredibly thin compared to usual, and that alot of sections in the EP sound very empty.

In the end, it's all about the time you have and doing what's best for the band. If you are paying for the sessions, you need to be able to be ready to record as soon as possible, otherwise it's money going down the drain. That's why I'm always happy to DI my amp, as I get the sound I like and it takes maximum of a few minutes to get everything sorted out.

Just my opinion.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Fullmetal' post='1050812' date='Dec 7 2010, 06:07 PM']Just wanted to chuck my opinion into the fray.

I did some recording a few months back, first time recording with my current band and we were recording a 4 track EP. We never expected the best quality recordings but the quality is still pretty damn awesome. I took my Ampeg with me so I could get the sound I like, but the producers equipment didn't seem to react well when we DI'd the Ampeg. The guy didn't have a bass cabinet so we couldn't mic it up, he just put me through a Sansamp BDDI.

Now I wasn't really happy about the new setup, but it was time saving and I ended up being able to dial in a half decent tone. I was happy with the recordings until we got the mixed versions back and I realised that my bass actually sounded incredibly thin compared to usual, and that alot of sections in the EP sound very empty.

In the end, it's all about the time you have and doing what's best for the band. If you are paying for the sessions, you need to be able to be ready to record as soon as possible, otherwise it's money going down the drain. That's why I'm always happy to DI my amp, as I get the sound I like and it takes maximum of a few minutes to get everything sorted out.

Just my opinion.[/quote]
I can't understand why it should sound thin with a BDDI, or why the "producer's" kit didn't like your Ampeg, summat wrong there, mate.

It really pays to do your homework before recording or live work. I set up my bass sounds to music of a similar nature to the bands I'm in, or to previous band recordings, sometimes with the bass removed. I set up my sounds so they complement the music and still punch through at the right levels. I go for a produced sound anyway and my POD lets me do that. It's surprising how sh*t those sounds can be in isolation but they work really well when the whole band is mixed in. I realise that not everyone has the kit to be able to do that but if you have, there's no excuse to not go through this process. Quite often, people set up their bass sounds in isolation and wonder why they can't hear themselves in a band situation.