tone and hearing issues

[gicut58]

Can any of the regulars here tell me whether there have been any threads on tonality and hearing on the site in the past or does anyone have any specific technical knowledge?

The sound I like is as follows - amp eq flat other that slight bass and lower mid tweak, turning off speaker tweeters,rolling most of the treble off the bass (active, 3-channel eq) so I have comparatively few higher frequency overtones and not a particularly fast attack to my playing. I want to keep well out of the guitarists range and add to the overall sound spectrum we produce.
I love the band I'm in, we've had some fantastic times - so far - .
The issue is that I am being asked, much more vociferously of late to add treble. Not just a little, but to the point where eq is flat all round and in my opinion the bass is punching out the higher frequencies and losing the majority of the bottom end and I am invading the guitarists lower register.
I am told this increases the definition of the bass's sound within that of the band as a whole and both the drummer and guitarist are finding their reference points in what i'm playing much easier to find. The guitarist has tinnitis and both gtr and drummer wear earplugs.

the questions I'm asking are as follows - am I wrong in wanting 'my sound'? I hate....with a passion......the sound the bass produces that other band members want. How much does wearing earplugs affect audio reception? am i being asked to compensate for the hearing issues of others? am I being a bit too much of a prima D?

any constructive criticism gratefully received

G

[icastle]

[quote name='gicut58' post='1044883' date='Dec 2 2010, 11:59 AM']Can any of the regulars here tell me whether there have been any threads on tonality and hearing on the site in the past or does anyone have any specific technical knowledge?

The sound I like is as follows - amp eq flat other that slight bass and lower mid tweak, turning off speaker tweeters,rolling most of the treble off the bass (active, 3-channel eq) so I have comparatively few higher frequency overtones and not a particularly fast attack to my playing. I want to keep well out of the guitarists range and add to the overall sound spectrum we produce.
I love the band I'm in, we've had some fantastic times - so far - .
The issue is that I am being asked, much more vociferously of late to add treble. Not just a little, but to the point where eq is flat all round and in my opinion the bass is punching out the higher frequencies and losing the majority of the bottom end and I am invading the guitarists lower register.
I am told this increases the definition of the bass's sound within that of the band as a whole and both the drummer and guitarist are finding their reference points in what i'm playing much easier to find. The guitarist has tinnitis and both gtr and drummer wear earplugs.

the questions I'm asking are as follows - am I wrong in wanting 'my sound'? I hate....with a passion......the sound the bass produces that other band members want. How much does wearing earplugs affect audio reception? am i being asked to compensate for the hearing issues of others? am I being a bit too much of a prima D?

any constructive criticism gratefully received

G[/quote]

Well, if the other members of the band are having trouble finding their reference points against what you are playing then there's obviously a problem.

In my opinion, earplugs are sensible and tinitus isn't something the guitarist has done to make things awkward.

You may well be being asked to compensate for the hearing issues of the other band members but you must realise that if they can't work accurately with the sound you are using then it limits their ability to play in time with you and therefore makes you pretty difficult to work with.

Has to be your call obviously, but you perhaps need to ask yourself if you prefer your chosen sound more than being a member of the band? If they're becoming increasingly vociferous about it then I imagine things could easily escalate from this point.

[cheddatom]

You should be using ear plugs anyway, if it's loud enough for the others to need them.

Adding treble doesn't reduce bass. Maybe the answer is to keep your sound as is, but then feed your signal to the PA or a couple of monitors or a guitar amp or something, and point this at the rest of the band with the high end turned up.

[Lozz196]

I have this issue in my band, with one specific band member saying the bass is too boomy, and needs "definition". Which when we try it, is just adding boat-loads of treble, and reducing the lows, so that I sound like I`m playing a Les Paul with no distrortion.

What we have found however, is that a meeting in the middle seems to work best. For example, if I like the bass on 6, and treble on 5, said band member would have bass on 4, treble on 7. So bass on 5 treble on 6 usually is the best in the mix for the band.

That said, first thing I would check in your position is the out-front sound, not the sound on stage. What is out front can be really different to the on-stage sound. I was shocked to hear my bass out front at one of our earlier gigs, having set up a great on-stage sound, and instantly reduced the lows.

Usually, when these kind of things occur in a band, adding mids, not treble, helps. The mids are what cut through anyway. I`ve found that the best sound within the band sounds, to me, slightly irritating and "clanky" on stage. However, out front, it sits nicely within the mix.

Yr only being a prima-donna if your sound doesn`t fit nicely in the context of your band and you won`t change it.

[ThomBassmonkey]

As Lozz said, check your sound out front, that's what's important. As a band you should all know where you are anyway.

Also, some combinations of gear can be quite muddy, even if both pieces of gear sound brilliant in other set-ups. I've found that certain basses don't have the definition I'd like through my GK rig, even though they sound brilliant with other rigs and my GK sounds amazing with my basses.

If it's a serious on-going problem and it sounds good out front as it is, you could suggest in-ear monitoring. It's an expensive solution, but they're better in general and then people can have it EQ'd how they want. Or you could talk to the sound guy at gigs and see if he can take two feeds from your bass then use an EQ with more treble on your bass to put in their monitors, though that's not always practical (Or possible if the venue only has one monitor channel).

[martthebass]

I suffer from tinnitus (and crosstalk) in my left ear. If I don't wear plugs I really stuggle as it just rings like hell. However with plugs, there is a treble attenuation and my bass can get lost to me if I'm not careful. For this reason I go flat EQ and prefer using a MM or Status live - I find my EB0 (on the rare occasions I use it for a gig) dissapears as did my old precision.

[Mykesbass]

I keep reading about the importance of proper compression in these cases. Interesting piece in this months BGM and I'm sure it's 5imon on here who could give you chapter and verse - I know it is something I'm going to experiment with after problems with my last band.

[chris_b]

Your band want more top so they can hear you. I'd try to compromise by adding more mids and high mids and point the amp slightly at them on stage. Which amp do you use?

[zero9]

You don't say what gear you use. Bass frequencies will be received differently (intensity wise) depending on the distance of the listener to the speaker due to the wavelength produced. It is also more productive to cut say the bass frequency rather than boost the treble (leave this flat). Also, if you have bridge and neck pups, rolling off the neck pup might help.

[gicut58]

I use a Genz Benz Shuttle 6 and GB 2x10 cab with a GB 12" cab underneath -
this: [url="http://www.genzbenz.com/?fa=detail&mid=2256&sid=610&cid=95"]http://www.genzbenz.com/?fa=detail&mid...=610&cid=95[/url]
and this: [url="http://www.genzbenz.com/?fa=detail&mid=2352&sid=617&cid=96"]http://www.genzbenz.com/?fa=detail&mid...=617&cid=96[/url]

G

[Prime_BASS]

Maybe we couldget a better perspective with sound example?
Any YouTube bids of you playing withthe band.

[BigAlonBass]

[quote name='gicut58' post='1044883' date='Dec 2 2010, 11:59 AM']the questions I'm asking are as follows - am I wrong in wanting 'my sound'? I hate....with a passion......the sound the bass produces that other band members want. How much does wearing earplugs affect audio reception? am i being asked to compensate for the hearing issues of others? am I being a bit too much of a prima D?

any constructive criticism gratefully received

G[/quote]
Answers in chronological order:- Yes - Tough - It Varies - No - Yes.

In the last few Bands I've been in, I can categorically state that I have NEVER had "my sound" onstage. It's always been a matter of compromising to make the BAND sound good, not to keep a single member (us) happy. I wear earplugs as well, so it doesn't grate as much as it used to in 'The Olden Days', as it takes a bit of treble out of the sound you're actually hearing. The only true test is to get out in the audience by means of a radio transmitter or a very long guitar lead, and listen to what it sounds like out there. If you still think it sounds rubbish, you're in the wrong Band, because you (or they) never be happy with your sound.

[gicut58]

yep,

12 months ago, essentally the same 'sound' [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhtn48ngH1c"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhtn48ngH1c[/url]
and here:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxIz9j5G1Yo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxIz9j5G1Yo[/url]

G

[icastle]

[quote name='gicut58' post='1045136' date='Dec 2 2010, 02:32 PM']yep,

12 months ago, essentally the same 'sound' [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhtn48ngH1c"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhtn48ngH1c[/url]
and here:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxIz9j5G1Yo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxIz9j5G1Yo[/url]

G[/quote]

Ok.
Admittedly I'm using the crap speakers built into my monitor but I can barely hear any bass on there at all - I can on other recordings of similar or worse technical quality though.

[Lozz196]

Me neither - the only bass I can hear is the kick drum.

[ezbass]

[quote name='Lozz196' post='1044912' date='Dec 2 2010, 12:18 PM']That said, first thing I would check in your position is the out-front sound, not the sound on stage. What is out front can be really different to the on-stage sound.[/quote]
This x infinity.

My sound on stage always sounds good with plenty of low end, but if I go out FOH (on of the beauties of wireless) it is much more middy and I often have to add low end (my cabs are very low mid voiced). Even your band are not hearing what it sounds like FOH as your speakers (and theirs for that matter) break much further forward than where you are standing.

[Krysbass]

[quote name='gicut58' post='1044883' date='Dec 2 2010, 12:59 PM']I want to keep well out of the guitarists range and add to the overall sound spectrum we produce.

G[/quote]

The OP mentions that you don’t want to turn up your treble as you don’t want to invade the guitarists’ tonal space, but in my experience it’s a common problem that the guitarists might already be invading yours – this could be at least part of the reason that they can’t hear you.

My view on this is that when guitarists practice alone they usually don’t have a bassist accompanying them. They therefore turn up the bass tone control on their amps and become accustomed to this more aurally pleasing, full-bodied sound. Problem is, they get used to this and forget to turn their bass tone control down sufficiently when they are in a band situation where there’s a bassist on hand to handle all the low end stuff!

KB

[endorka]

I've had a listen to your clips on Youtube through a decent set of speakers.

Assuming that the recording is a reasonable representation of your sound, I would say the following:

The bass tone on "Poker Face" and "You Really Got Me" is wooly and indistinct. If I were in your shoes, I would roll of some bass and bring your treble setting to the neutral position, and take it from there. Too much bass will tend to give you a wooly bloomy boomy sound, especially in clubs/pubs, and parodoxically will make it more difficult for your bass presence to be felt.

Jennifer

[icastle]

Stop being a wuss, turn your treble up and be part of the band.

[icastle]

[quote name='Krysbass' post='1045383' date='Dec 2 2010, 05:36 PM']The OP mentions that you don’t want to turn up your treble as you don’t want to invade the guitarists’ tonal space, but in my experience it’s a common problem that the guitarists might already be invading yours – this could be at least part of the reason that they can’t hear you.

My view on this is that when guitarists practice alone they usually don’t have a bassist accompanying them. They therefore turn up the bass tone control on their amps and become accustomed to this more aurally pleasing, full-bodied sound. Problem is, they get used to this and forget to turn their bass tone control down sufficiently when they are in a band situation where there’s a bassist on hand to handle all the low end stuff!

KB[/quote]

Nothing wrong with the guitar here - it's ripe for accompaniment.
I was always under the impression that the job of a bassist was to glue the rhythm section to the lead section in the most appropriate way in order to enhance the overall performance - might be 1 note a 1000 notes or none at all!
If the bass player has to wait for the guitarist to leave him or her a space to work within then the band doesn't need a bassist!

[Prime_BASS]

I listened to the clips through my vary good/expensive head phonrs.

All well and good wanting your own sound however IMO the hand as a whole sounds rather "empty". This is because you EQ in such a away to make you sound totally disjointed from the rest of them. There is much to be heard between the extreme treble if the guitar and your extreme bass.

All I can suggest is at a rehearsal stand in a way thy you can hear everything, and hopefully you'll understand what I mean. Then I would try and start from scratch, EQ your amp and bass FLAT then hear the difference.

Not trying to hate on you but the bass doesn't fill much space and is rather indistinct. A slight treble and base boost with a high mid cut would fill up some space without sounding "cranky" or zingy.

[Wolverinebass]

Less bass, more mids and treble. Whilst using loads of cut isn't to everyone's taste, nobody will ever hear you with the settings you're using. Very wooly. In my experience you have to play with a much brighter sound live than you would if you were recording. Usually involving more mids or treble. Heard on it's own it's not necessarily pleasing, but live it'd work a treat.

It'll probably be very alien to you for a while but you have to get away from your amp to hear how everyone else hears you. Play with a wooly setting and nobody will hear you as it'll just sound like mush and it'll detract from people's experience of your band and hide your playing as the bass will just become vibration for most people with no note definition to speak of.

On the other hand, you might think that compromising on this is too big a price to pay for how you want to sound.

[urb]

I would agree that boosting and controlling the mids is absolutely the way to get heard in your band... BUT - there's a bigger point here that as a bassist you should be able to find and achieve your sound, and while you should take on board what your bandmates want, and accomodate them too, defferring all power to your guitarists is a bit of a crap way to go about making music IMO. Personally I like to make sure I am fulfilling my duty to lay down the bottom end, but with a little treble snap for definition, with the mids cut and both pups on, but when I want to cut through I increase the mids - and if I'm in solo mode I'll switch to the bridge pup only or mainly, to really have that singing tone. I was saying the other day at the bash I was in certain bands for years and was playing mainly rock stuff and just ended up feeling frustrated as I always had to lock in the guitars and had little room to have my own sound or develop my playing. After that band stopped and and I started playing the music I'm really into - funk/jazz/world music - I could not only hear myself better, I could actually develop as a player.

M

[Prime_BASS]

[quote name='urb' post='1045626' date='Dec 2 2010, 08:43 PM']I would agree that boosting and controlling the mids is absolutely the way to get heard in your band... BUT - there's a bigger point here that as a bassist you should be able to find and achieve your sound, and while you should take on board what your bandmates want, and accomodate them too, defferring all power to your guitarists is a bit of a crap way to go about making music IMO.[/quote]

IMO part of being a bassist is being versatile to suite the needs of the band and IMO (and I know other will agree) this particular bass sound doesn't sit well with the rest of the mix. it's not about cutting in on someone elses sound, you should be all able to sit well in a "mix" where as right now it feels go me you guys are separating. Your EQ choice would be good in a reggae format but for from what I'm getting from the vids it's not so hot for driving rock.

Cliff Williams, I would say there isn't a lot of treble in his overall sound but he has enough mids to cut in and be heard while still anchoring the guitar.

[LawrenceH]

I think it's worth listening to the original bass part on the recording of that Free number. It's very 'solid' without having a very deep bass - more low-mid punch and a bit of upper-mid clank. You can probably get a 'tighter' tone that'll fill out the sound and please the rest of the band without adding in the excessive treble you're worried about, by sorting out the mids and rolling the deep bass off a bit. It'll still be there providing nice reinforcement, but it shouldn't be the main component of a mix unless you're playing very specific genres. It might take a while to get used to as a player but it will give the band a fuller sound.