Changing a driver

[oldslapper]

Please excuse my general ignorance on these matters, but I was thinking about changing the blue driver in my ashdown combo for a celestion neo, to lessen the weight.
However, I have a feeling that it's not as simple as taking out the old one and putting a new one in?? I looked on the wiki pages but couldn't locate the appropriate threads.
My own, rather agricultural approach would be to swap and see what it sounds like, but...........I have a feeling that the cabs are "tuned" (whatever that means) to suit the driver.... so I'd need to read up on some technical stuff that will make me lose the will to live....., or take up the drums...
Thanks for any (monosyllabic please) advice with pretty, primary coloured, pictures..

John

[Mr. Foxen]

Quite a lot more to it than that. For a start, the port will be much too small, and will severely limit the speaker output before it starts chuffing from the airspeed in it.

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?act=Search&CODE=show&searchid=9f807d9959ef67c2d70af51d522cc1d9&search_in=posts&result_type=topics&highlite=%2Bwinisd"]All of these threads contain something relevant.[/url]

Basically, the box probably doesn't suit the blue driver that well, it will probably suit a neo even less, so it is a kind of waste of money, unless you happen to have one, in which case, give it a try, and it there is a round port, roll up a tube from something and try making the port longer to mess with the tuning, telescopic style.

[oldslapper]

Thank you Mr F.
The threads look a little overwhelming for me, so I think I'll take your advice sir, and leave it as it is.

John

[redstriper]

I changed the driver in my MAG 115 cab for an Eminence neo 3015LF.
I had to widen the hole slightly with a spoke shave, but the screws lined up and it was an easy job.
It sounded much better to my ears, deeper and louder and it also weighed a lot less.
I've put different drivers in various cabs and never had any problems despite the science - but I live on the edge

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1045155' date='Dec 2 2010, 09:51 AM']Basically, the box probably doesn't suit the blue driver that well, it will probably suit a neo even less[/quote]Not necessarily. What specs I've seen of Blues show them to have such high Qts and Vas that they can't possibly work well in a smaller box. Or even a large one, for that matter. Many neos have far lower Qts, and more significant lower Vas, than even good drivers of prior generations, allowing them to work very well in smaller cabs. You'd want to model a few to see what works best in the cab in question, of course.

[LawrenceH]

From what I dimly recall of the specs for the 12" Sica/Jensen driver (which the blueline was based on) in my old Ashdown Electric Blue combo, it actually performed ok for a small box when I modelled it - obviously I don't know how much Ashdown tweak the spec but I suspected it was largely a matter of making the cone blue (!) since the model tallied with my impressions from playing through it. Excursion was certainly adequate, though not spectacular. From a bass point of view it wasn't worth swapping for any neo that I modelled, where it suffered a bit was the mid-range extension, and of course the weight. Chuffing was apparent when I REALLY hammered it, but in practice it was rarely an issue

Obviously the limitations would have been more apparent with more watts, where excursion and port size would matter more. The older EB pumps out about 120w into 8 ohms IIRC, the similar Mag combos probably have a bit more in them. Also the 15" driver may well have more issues in a small box than the 12. Can I ask what combo you've got and how old it is? Can I also ask what you hope to get out of swapping speakers?

[oldslapper]

Hi Laurence.
I'm probably being a blouse about the weight, but the combo is a UK made ABM EVO 300 with a 1x10 driver. It's basically the same size as the "mini" cab range and I use it with a mini 1x15 to get the full 325 watt at 4ohm.
As I said, a 1x10 blue swap for a neo may not make a lot of difference to the weight, but may affect the sound adversely? I don't know, but thought I'd ask for some opinions.

Thanks,
John

[dan670844]

[quote name='oldslapper' post='1044886' date='Dec 2 2010, 12:01 PM']Please excuse my general ignorance on these matters, but I was thinking about changing the blue driver in my ashdown combo for a celestion neo, to lessen the weight.
However, I have a feeling that it's not as simple as taking out the old one and putting a new one in?? I looked on the wiki pages but couldn't locate the appropriate threads.
My own, rather agricultural approach would be to swap and see what it sounds like, but...........I have a feeling that the cabs are "tuned" (whatever that means) to suit the driver.... so I'd need to read up on some technical stuff that will make me lose the will to live....., or take up the drums...
Thanks for any (monosyllabic please) advice with pretty, primary coloured, pictures..

John[/quote]

Well i suppose you could give it a go, if its a combo they would be pretty well matched in terms of output ie the speaker and the amp so the amp wont push to many watts so the box might cope with it. if you try and get one of the celeste's that match your current speaker in terms of watts and frequency range it could work i say could... ie if your current speakers is something like 70hz plus and you stick a cleste's with a 40hz bottom it will prob sound very sh*te! i have been experimenting with neo for a while and have come to the conclusion that i dont like them as the tone is a little different from ferrite drivers. They are great if you want a kind of clinical 80s sound, but to me they are the opposite of the warm tone you can get with traditional drivers. my advice get some wheels..

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='oldslapper' post='1045664' date='Dec 2 2010, 09:14 PM']Hi Laurence.
I'm probably being a blouse about the weight, but the combo is a UK made ABM EVO 300 with a 1x10 driver. It's basically the same size as the "mini" cab range and I use it with a mini 1x15 to get the full 325 watt at 4ohm.
As I said, a 1x10 blue swap for a neo may not make a lot of difference to the weight, but may affect the sound adversely? I don't know, but thought I'd ask for some opinions.

Thanks,
John[/quote]

If you can work out the rough internal volume, and the port(s) diameter and length, then you'll be able to work out which drivers would be a good match. I'm very roughly guessing a net internal volume of about 60 litres based on online dimensions and trying to take account of the room taken up by the head, which makes it a candidate for something like the Eminence Deltalite II - obviously that's without knowing what the cabinet's tuned to. This speaker'd probably change the sound, giving you more bite in the mids, but that may be a good thing. I'd certainly prefer it!
The drawback with the Eminence will be that high power, high bass use will probably kill it due to excessive cone excursion, though I doubt the current speaker is much (if any) better in that regard. There are other, costlier options depending on how much you push your cab. What do you want from a new speaker?

[stevie]

John, are you sure it's a 10"? I checked the website and they don't seem to have made any 300W ABM combos with 10s. Do you have a model number?

[bumnote]

[quote name='stevie' post='1046174' date='Dec 3 2010, 11:35 AM']John, are you sure it's a 10"? I checked the website and they don't seem to have made any 300W ABM combos with 10s. Do you have a model number?[/quote]

Yes I have one, it is a c110 300 combo that was discontinued in 2005ish and it is the same size as a mini cab

I sometimes use it as a live rig with the mini 4x8 and I also swapped out the original and put in a Deltalite

There was no science, apart from lagging the box after a pm with Stevie

It makes a difference to the weight, but not an enormous one. I did the swap because the speaker was SH and a good price. I dont really notice much difference on stage although i use it primarily at home for rehearsal.

I have just remembered, one of the tuning ports has been cut away because it fouls the side handle, so I dont suppose design like you guys all talk about has been that much included.

BTW I do enjoy the toing and froing between You, Laurence and Bill

Nigel

Edited December 3, 2010 by bumnote

[bumnote]

To add to the debate, I have a mini 1x15 and it doesnt sound particularly nice to me, I can only describe it as Boxy whatever that means, while I love the 4x8 for its compact size and its sound

I have used that in combination and as a stand alone with either the Eden head or my acoustic 370 and it sounds great.

However that is really heavy and I have toyed with the idea of changing the 8s with neos but that would be more expensive.

However, I bought the plans from Bill for the Jack 10 and 12 and one day will probably make a couple of Jack 12s.I

[ezbass]

I changed the drivers in my old 2x10 ABM cabs to lighten the load. I phoned Ashdown and bought the new neo versions that they fit in the Superfly cabs. Almost identical tone the orginal Blue Line jobbies.

[stevie]

[quote name='ezbass' post='1046421' date='Dec 3 2010, 03:00 PM']I phoned Ashdown and bought the new neo versions that they fit in the Superfly cabs.[/quote]
From what's been posted on here, Ashdown replacement speakers are quite good value. As we know, some bass companies charge the earth for spares. I would definitely consider that an option.

The internal size of the Mini 15 cab is 55 litres. At a rough guess, that would make the internal size of the combo, what - 40 litres? That's quite large for a 10", and larger than the Celestion neos like to see. If you want a Celestion, you'd be better off with a 12".

The Eminence Deltalite 2510 works better in a large box. The downside of that driver is that is shrieks like a banshee at 2kHz. Some people equate that with clarity, but there you go (and you can always pull it down with the graphic).

If, as you say, the purpose of this exercise is to cut down on the weight of the combo, it might not be as successful as you think (as Bumnote has pointed out). A Deltalite neo weighs 2.1kg. The ceramic magnet Celestion BL10-200X weighs 3kg, and I would suspect has a larger magnet than the Ashdown driver you have at the moment. Before you spend any of your hard-earned cash, I'd suggest you weigh the Ashdown driver.

Edited December 3, 2010 by stevie

[stevie]

[quote name='bumnote' post='1046226' date='Dec 3 2010, 12:29 PM']To add to the debate, I have a mini 1x15 and it doesnt sound particularly nice to me, I can only describe it as Boxy whatever that means, while I love the 4x8 for its compact size and its sound[/quote]
I have two of them in the garage, which I am very slowly converting into 12" cabs. I posted some measurements of the cab on here a while ago showing a (not very nice) bump at 100Hz. You could try pulling that frequency down a touch with your eq. I'd equate 'boxy' with a problem at a higher frequency than that. There is a very good chance that lagging your cab with wadding will reduce the boxiness, because boxiness is the typical sound of a box that's not lined IMO.

Edited December 3, 2010 by stevie

[Mr. Foxen]

Isn't a bump at 100hz 'vintage tone'?

[oldslapper]

I'm going to leave the 1x10 in there. The difference in weight will be minimal, as Stevie pointed out.
I quite like the 1x15 as an extention cab, but more for it's size and weight, as the sound nuances spoken of above are lost on an insensitive brute like me.

Having said that, I can see me selling the combo and cab soon anyway. I've fallen for Phil Jones amps, having had a Briefcase, I now want a Suitcase.
I only gig double bass these days and record electric bass, so don't need anything loud.

Thanks for all your advice, you guys are ace!

Stevie.........Dorset bass bash next summer......

[bumnote]

[quote name='oldslapper' post='1046545' date='Dec 3 2010, 04:46 PM']I'm going to leave the 1x10 in there. The difference in weight will be minimal, as Stevie pointed out.
I quite like the 1x15 as an extention cab, but more for it's size and weight, as the sound nuances spoken of above are lost on an insensitive brute like me.

Having said that, I can see me selling the combo and cab soon anyway. I've fallen for Phil Jones amps, having had a Briefcase, I now want a Suitcase.
I only gig double bass these days and record electric bass, so don't need anything loud.

Thanks for all your advice, you guys are ace!

Stevie.........Dorset bass bash next summer...... [/quote]

I just weighed the original seca speaker at 4.3 kg so if the Deltalite weight is 2.1 thats saving of 2.2 kgs or about 5 lbs Guessing the weight of the combo as near to the 4x8 which is listed at 30 kg it is only a saving of 7%

[bumnote]

[quote name='stevie' post='1046458' date='Dec 3 2010, 03:33 PM']The internal size of the Mini 15 cab is 55 litres. At a rough guess, that would make the internal size of the combo, what - 40 litres? That's quite large for a 10", and larger than the Celestion neos like to see. If you want a Celestion, you'd be better off with a 12".[/quote]

That a pretty good guess. Measuring on the outside and calculating the thickness I make it 42 litres.

Ive got some wadding left so I might try putting some in the 15 thanks.

[stevie]

[quote name='oldslapper' post='1046545' date='Dec 3 2010, 04:46 PM']Stevie.........Dorset bass bash next summer...... [/quote]
I do hope you're going to organize another one. I'll be there!