WITHDRAWN

[Macko1968]

Whilst it was useful for someone to flag up that the bass sold a week earlier for a lot less I don't see where in the rules anyone is prevented from trying to turn a profit. If someone had bought the bass though & then found out it went for considerably less a week earlier the only person they could have any issue with is themselves, no-one forced them to pay the inflated price & they had equal opportunity to buy the bass at the original price but didn't take it. Buyers take responsibility for determining if something is worth the asking price to them & as long as what they pay for is what they receive, they can have no complaints. I'd also take issue with some comments about member's standing - how long you have been here, how much you contribute doesn't excuse anyone their obligations when it comes to manners. The seller only became arsey after after some pretty arsey messages were directed at him, as mature adults we should be able to disagree about prices without being disagreeable.

I find the community "looking out for it's own" a little difficult to swallow at the moment when there are some members whose own practices are questionable. I know of one for sale add at the minute where a long-standing member is asking £x because "that's what I paid for it" - I happen to know they paid less for it. I've not taken them to task over it because I figure the asking price for the bass will decide if it sells or not. I also see numerous adds stating "pay pal, if you pay [b]the[/b] fees. That should read "if you pay [b]my[/b] fees". The fees are the sellers responsibility yet some members expect the community to bear the costs of pay pal when buying & selling so they can use it for free - hardly in the spirit of a community. Talkbass is ahead of us in this respect, requiring sellers to abide by their paypal agreement & not pass on fees to buyers.

It's an entirely laudable approach that the community is trying to take but, without explicit instruction in the rules, the situation around this sale will continue to arise. I would like to hear from the moderators on this subject, if profiteering is allowed then many of the comments on this thread should be removed, if it's not then the rules need updating & the seller informed of their transgression in a constructive manner by PM.

[munkonthehill]

[quote name='Macko1968' post='1047988' date='Dec 5 2010, 09:05 AM']Whilst it was useful for someone to flag up that the bass sold a week earlier for a lot less I don't see where in the rules anyone is prevented from trying to turn a profit. If someone had bought the bass though & then found out it went for considerably less a week earlier the only person they could have any issue with is themselves, no-one forced them to pay the inflated price & they had equal opportunity to buy the bass at the original price but didn't take it. Buyers take responsibility for determining if something is worth the asking price to them & as long as what they pay for is what they receive, they can have no complaints. I'd also take issue with some comments about member's standing - how long you have been here, how much you contribute doesn't excuse anyone their obligations when it comes to manners. The seller only became arsey after after some pretty arsey messages were directed at him, as mature adults we should be able to disagree about prices without being disagreeable.

I find the community "looking out for it's own" a little difficult to swallow at the moment when there are some members whose own practices are questionable. I know of one for sale add at the minute where a long-standing member is asking £x because "that's what I paid for it" - I happen to know they paid less for it. I've not taken them to task over it because I figure the asking price for the bass will decide if it sells or not. I also see numerous adds stating "pay pal, if you pay [b]the[/b] fees. That should read "if you pay [b]my[/b] fees". The fees are the sellers responsibility yet some members expect the community to bear the costs of pay pal when buying & selling so they can use it for free - hardly in the spirit of a community. Talkbass is ahead of us in this respect, requiring sellers to abide by their paypal agreement & not pass on fees to buyers.

It's an entirely laudable approach that the community is trying to take but, without explicit instruction in the rules, the situation around this sale will continue to arise. I would like to hear from the moderators on this subject, if profiteering is allowed then many of the comments on this thread should be removed, if it's not then the rules need updating & the seller informed of their transgression in a constructive manner by PM.[/quote]

You do have some points I agree with, however this paypal fee topic is nowt to do with 'community spirit' its to do with losing out on YOUR asking price as the buyer cant do a bacs transfer or any other method that would not incur fees and losing out on your full asking price. I think giving the option of paypal is a decent thing to do, however as this is a fee option, then surely as this option is selected by the buyer, then the buyer should foot the bill!!!!

I recently bought some ampeg gear from this site and paypal was the easiest and quickest method of payment for both parties....I happily footed the bill and when the seller offered to split the difference I refused his money. Now thats 'community spirit'

[Macko1968]

You see I think Paypal offers more benefits to sellers than buyers. It massively increases your potential market as it allows people to use a credit card to fund the purchase. It also saves fannying on sending (unsecured) account details, checking your account & that lovely period of 7 days when, even if the money has gone in to your account, it can still be taken back. I'm still driven by the agreement that I chose to sign an agreement with paypal over the charging of fees & it is not acceptable for me to unilaterally break that agreement.

Whatever the divergent views there does need to be a universal agreement in the interests of fairness. It can;t be right that some people get through life never paying a bean for the service whilst enjoying all the benefits.

[pete.young]

[quote name='Macko1968' post='1047988' date='Dec 5 2010, 09:05 AM']The fees are the sellers responsibility[/quote]

Not here they're not. This isn't ebay. It's up to the parties in the transaction to negotiate an acceptable method of payment.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Macko1968' post='1047988' date='Dec 5 2010, 09:05 AM']Whilst it was useful for someone to flag up that the bass sold a week earlier for a lot less I don't see where in the rules anyone is prevented from trying to turn a profit. If someone had bought the bass though & then found out it went for considerably less a week earlier the only person they could have any issue with is themselves, no-one forced them to pay the inflated price & they had equal opportunity to buy the bass at the original price but didn't take it. Buyers take responsibility for determining if something is worth the asking price to them & as long as what they pay for is what they receive, they can have no complaints. I'd also take issue with some comments about member's standing - how long you have been here, how much you contribute doesn't excuse anyone their obligations when it comes to manners. The seller only became arsey after after some pretty arsey messages were directed at him, as mature adults we should be able to disagree about prices without being disagreeable.

I find the community "looking out for it's own" a little difficult to swallow at the moment when there are some members whose own practices are questionable. I know of one for sale add at the minute where a long-standing member is asking £x because "that's what I paid for it" - I happen to know they paid less for it. I've not taken them to task over it because I figure the asking price for the bass will decide if it sells or not. I also see numerous adds stating "pay pal, if you pay [b]the[/b] fees. That should read "if you pay [b]my[/b] fees". The fees are the sellers responsibility yet some members expect the community to bear the costs of pay pal when buying & selling so they can use it for free - hardly in the spirit of a community. Talkbass is ahead of us in this respect, requiring sellers to abide by their paypal agreement & not pass on fees to buyers.

It's an entirely laudable approach that the community is trying to take but, without explicit instruction in the rules, the situation around this sale will continue to arise. I would like to hear from the moderators on this subject, if profiteering is allowed then many of the comments on this thread should be removed, if it's not then the rules need updating & the seller informed of their transgression in a constructive manner by PM.[/quote]
Yeah it's not in the rules... that's kind of the whole point of a community using morals to "police" itself. Some guys will be pulled up, some won't depending on the floating scale of morality. It's the nature if the beast.

If you believe that a member on here is lying in a FS thread (as you've mentioned above) then that lie should be challenged for the sake of the community. If you decide to challenge them pulicly and it is found to be the case then you may have prevented soneone from being ripped of a bit but more importantly the message that this behaviour will not be tolerated here is enforced thus saving even more members from this fate. If you choose to tackle it via PM then again there might be a favourable outcome for that particular instance but the long term benefit is diminished.
I recently contacted an eBay seller to hopefully point out a faux pas in his listing of a bass that claimed it was 100% original. It was over some replaced electrics that only a bass nerd would know about but none the less it wasn't original. The seller thanked me and said that he would amend his listing and post my concern in the Q&A section. Of course he didn't and the bass sold to someone who innocently bought something that wasn't as advertised. I did what I could to help all concerned but in the end the seller got what he wanted by hook or by crook. Should we tolerate this behaviour here when we might be able to prevent it? Because that's what will happen if we pussy foot around the issue.

The OP in this case needs no back up from you my friend, there is more than enough evidence in black and white and between the lines to see what really went down here and the calibre of said gentleman.

Oh and as for PP fees? Personal gift.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Ou7shined

[Macko1968]

[quote name='pete.young' post='1048019' date='Dec 5 2010, 09:57 AM']Not here they're not. This isn't ebay. It's up to the parties in the transaction to negotiate an acceptable method of payment.[/quote]

All paypal users agree to abide by their T&Cs which includes not charging for accepting payments via paypal, it's not an ebay exclusive term.

[Macko1968]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='1048020' date='Dec 5 2010, 10:01 AM']Yeah it's not in the rules... that's kind of the whole point of a community using morals to "police" itself. Some guys will be pulled up, some won't depending on the floating scale of morality. It's the nature if the beast.

If you believe that a member on here is lying in a FS thread (as you've mentioned above) then that lie should be challenged for the sake of the community. If you decide to challenge them pulicly and it is found to be the case then you may have prevented soneone from being ripped of a bit but more importantly the message that this behaviour will not be tolerated here is enforced thus saving even more members from this fate. If you choose to tackle it via PM then again there might be a favourable outcome for that particular instance but the long term benefit is diminished.
I recently contacted an eBay seller to hopefully point out a faux pas in his listing of a bass that claimed it was 100% original. It was over some replaced electrics that only a bass nerd would know about but none the less it wasn't original. The seller thanked me and said that he would amend his listing and post my concern in the Q&A section. Of course he didn't and the bass sold to someone who innocently bought something that wasn't as advertised. I did what I could to help all concerned but in the end the seller got what he wanted by hook or by crook. Should we tolerate this behaviour here when we might be able to prevent it? Because that's what will happen if we pussy foot around the issue.

The OP in this case needs no back up from you my friend, there is more than enough evidence in black and white and between the lines to see what really went down here and the calibre of said gentleman.

Oh and as for PP fees? Personal gift.[/quote]

I'm not looking to back up the seller, I wouldn't have bought the bass. Merely pointing out that, in the absence of any explicit instruction, it would have been preferable to politely explain that his approach would not be welcome on these pages. Self-policing is to be encouraged but, in this instance, the point had been made but people were still queuing up to have a go, a bit too "Lord Of The Flies" in that respect. I'd again ask that the moderators make a decision & issue some guidance.

[Beedster]

Some really interesting points above. I think the fact that several mods saw this thread last night but chose not to intervene, whilst several similar threads have been closed, suggests that the degree of self-policing, although perhaps distasteful to some (and I'm not saying without reason), was acceptable? To my mind, this was made all the more stark by the fact that the OP changed the title of the thread for a while last night suggesting it was a wasting everyone's time and it be closed.

I see the market place here being a bit like an antiques market, you'd ask your questions in public and get your answers in public, and you rely to a degree on the response of that public in making your decision. Ebay and the like are different. I think the mods generally do a very good job of recognising the point at which one or more members have crossed the line in the sales forums (I'm sure no-one will be surprised to hear that I've had my wrist slapped several times), and like other members, worry if more rules are applied that BC will lose some of its spirit.

I think it should be remembered that the vast majority of FS threads pass without negative comment. Even among those which don't, a similar majority survive through credible responding on the part of the seller. Whilst understanding the anti self-policing sentiments expressed above, I also believe that they only refer to a tiny percentage of threads and are not as big an issue as perhaps some make them out to be - there is after all a tendency for members to check out hot threads, even if they are not interested in the items in question, whilst ignoring the majority of boring, uneventful and uncontroversial FS threads

Good discussion either way

C

[pete.young]

[quote name='Macko1968' post='1048035' date='Dec 5 2010, 10:19 AM']All paypal users agree to abide by their T&Cs which includes not charging for accepting payments via paypal, it's not an ebay exclusive term.[/quote]

From the PayPal terms and conditions:

"4.5 Non discouragement. In representations to your customers or in public communications, you agree not to mischaracterise or disparage PayPal as a payment method. You agree that you will only surcharge for the use of PayPal in compliance with any law applicable to you. You further agree that if you do charge a buyer any form of surcharge that you, and not PayPal, will inform the buyer of the requested charge. PayPal has no liability to any buyer where you have failed to inform the buyer of any surcharge. You acknowledge that if you are permitted to surcharge and your further fail to disclose any form of surcharge to a buyer this may constitute a criminal offence by you."

As far as I know, I'm not in breach of any UK laws by telling people that if they want to pay me by paypal, they can cover the fees.

[Machines]

Since this has been edited to death by multiple persons it's hard to see the facts as they occurred. I have PM'd Beedster for his take on the situation and will also do so with the seller.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Macko1968' post='1048038' date='Dec 5 2010, 10:27 AM']I'm not looking to back up the seller, I wouldn't have bought the bass. Merely pointing out that, in the absence of any explicit instruction, it would have been preferable to politely explain that his approach would not be welcome on these pages. Self-policing is to be encouraged but, in this instance, the point had been made but people were still queuing up to have a go, a bit too "Lord Of The Flies" in that respect. I'd again ask that the moderators make a decision & issue some guidance.[/quote]
To be fair I don't think that any of the comments here overstepped the mark if you take into account the type of thing you regularly see on other bass sites, and it has been the model of decorum when compared to gaming sites for example.
Of course there are limits but I feel any official over regulation in this matter would be a slippery slope to turning this section of the site into something none of us want it to be. It is not unheard of for contributors to pull up other contributors if they do overstep the mark (as you feel has happened) and if justified, for them to see sense and remove any offending comments themselves and that is fine too.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Beedster' post='1048063' date='Dec 5 2010, 10:57 AM']Some really interesting points above. I think the fact that several mods saw this thread last night but chose not to intervene, whilst several similar threads have been closed, suggests that the degree of self-policing, although perhaps distasteful to some (and I'm not saying without reason), was acceptable? To my mind, this was made all the more stark by the fact that the OP changed the title of the thread for a while last night suggesting it was a wasting everyone's time and it be closed.

I see the market place here being a bit like an antiques market, you'd ask your questions in public and get your answers in public, and you rely to a degree on the response of that public in making your decision. Ebay and the like are different. I think the mods generally do a very good job of recognising the point at which one or more members have crossed the line in the sales forums (I'm sure no-one will be surprised to hear that I've had my wrist slapped several times), and like other members, worry if more rules are applied that BC will lose some of its spirit.

I think it should be remembered that the vast majority of FS threads pass without negative comment. Even among those which don't, a similar majority survive through credible responding on the part of the seller. Whilst understanding the anti self-policing sentiments expressed above, I also believe that they only refer to a tiny percentage of threads and are not as big an issue as perhaps some make them out to be - there is after all a tendency for members to check out hot threads, even if they are not interested in the items in question, whilst ignoring the majority of boring, uneventful and uncontroversial FS threads

Good discussion either way

C[/quote]
Plus to the one in every respect.

[portraitoftracy]

[quote name='Ou7shined' post='1048085' date='Dec 5 2010, 04:26 AM']Plus to the one in every respect.[/quote]

Maybe this will help people move on

Facts from the seller:
I posted this bass for sale for more than I paid for it.
Unfortunately my ad did not discuss condition, however the link to over 12 high resolution pictures show condition and of course my ad description would have been updated when reminded or asked
The weight of the bass according to my digital scale is 10 pounds even, the talkbass ad had her at 10.2
I have over 50 possitive feedback on talkbass and ebay without one single negative mark
I offer a 48 hour approval period on all my sale transactions minus shipping charges whenever I sale a bass, I don't stick buyers with basses
I am a PhD student in music that has occasionally made a little money on selling a bass for more than I paid, but I have lost money on my bass addiction more than made out.

I think if your forum doesn't want people to sell basses for more than what they paid for them you are going to hire a lot more policing staff, regardless of the time between purchase and sale. If I had bought a 66 P bass for $800 at a garage sale and posted it for $3000 here when you recommend that dude that missed it at the garage sale mention so in my thread.

If my price was unfair no one would buy the bass, and if you didn't want to buy something someone had paid less for, well than a lot of you wouldn't have bought the house you live in.

Regardless, I think my username has been beaten up enough on this thread where I am probably not wanted or can't be trusted. Sorry for the intrusion chaps. Peace and Happy Holidays, I wish I lived in Europe!

[Machines]

And at that - I will close this thread.