Futurama = Tokai = Fender?

[BigRedX]

Lets get something out of the way first off...

Made in the same factory as reputable brand X in the far east means nothing. Maybe the instrument will have been cut out using the same CNC machine and some of the same workers might have had a hand in assembling them, but that's as far as it goes.

As discussed in a couple of other recent threads these factories will basically build their customers' guitars to the spec and QC procedures that the customer supplies and the price per unit is worked out from that against the quantity ordered. What this means is that any particular factory is producing many different instruments all at different build and QC standards depending on quantities and the price the customer is prepared to pay.

Therefore when a shop/distributor/eBay seller tells you that a particular unknown brand of guitar or bass is being made at the same factory as a well-known and reputable brand for the most part the claim is BS and, even if it was true, it means little in terms of the quality of the finished instrument and therefore to all intents and purposes should be totally disregarded.

On to Tokai in particular. The Tokai reputation is built on the instruments that they were producing Japan in the 80s. There is no disputing that these were very fine, and in a lot of cases superior to the guitars and basses that Gibson and Fender were producing at the time. However these days the majority of Tokai instruments coming into the UK are not made in Japan, but in Korea and (allegedly) China. For the money these are still pretty good instruments (at least the Korean ones that I've seen and played are), but they don't have the same attention to detail or follow the same construction methods to the instruments that they are copying as the MIJ Tokais.

I couldn't say about the current non-Japanese Tokai, Fender copies as as I'm not really interested in them, but neither of the two Gibson basses they copy are particularly authentic. The Tokai "Thunderbird" is built using completely different woods, construction methods, and hardware to any version ever produced by Gibson. Their EB3 seems closer to the original in construction, but still the electronics (which are a large part of the EB3 sound) are very different.

These days it appears that the Japanese Tokais are pretty much split between very high-end replicas of classic American guitars and more original designs such as the Talbo. The "affordable" new Tokai instruments are not Japanese, and don't really have the 'as good as or even better than the real thing' quality that the original Tokais from the 80s made their mark with.

[stingrayPete1977]

The main thing about a T-Bird for me is the overall look anyway. Using a high end amp makes even the most poor sounding basses sound quite good too. So if it plays nice enough and has a useable T bird sound thats fine by me as a entry level/introduction version, Plus the Epi has a bolt on neck and stuff anyway doesnt it? So its not like Gibson have constucted their own cheaper versions like the big brothers is it?

[chris_b]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1047832' date='Dec 4 2010, 10:33 PM']....The only reason I can think that they'd change name is that they've been known for decades for making rip-offs, maybe they want to start fresh if they're taking it in a new direction....[/quote]
Tokai never made Fender rip-offs. They made very high quality instruments which were more sought after than Fenders in the 80's.

[stingrayPete1977]

its still a rip off though, Its just a good one where we are normally used to things like Rolex watches with one hand!

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1048361' date='Dec 5 2010, 04:11 PM']Tokai never made Fender rip-offs. They made very high quality instruments which were more sought after than Fenders in the 80's.[/quote]

I consider rip of as taking someone's idea and making a profit from it, which Tokai did. I don't dispute that they were better instruments (I don't know, I've never played an 80s Tokai and I'm not a big fan of Fender in general anyway).

[BigRedX]

The reason that Tokai were considered to be more than just another Japanese copy guitar manufacturer was because when the instruments started appearing in the UK and US, they were producing replicas of the classic American instruments that in most cases outstripped in quality what either Gibson or Fender had been producing for the previous 10 years.

I have a friend who owns a couple of 80s Tokai "Strats" which he considers to be far better than any Fender he's played that hasn't cost stupid money. I have a couple MIJ Talbos (a 135B Bass and a Talbo Jr guitar) both of which are high quality if somewhat quirky instruments.

I haven't played any Chinese made Tokais yet, but I have tried a "Thunderbird" and an "EB3" - both MIK. Both were fine for the money, but strictly average far-east copy instrument quality and neither was a suitable substitute for the real thing in anything other than approximate looks. I can't imagine that shifting production to China will have improved this.

On the question of all the different "Thunderbird" basses, the Gibson, Epiphone, Epiphone Pro and Tokai badged instruments have little in common other than the same basic outline. Even the current Gibson version differs in several important respects from the original 60s model. I wouldn't consider any of them to be substitutes for any of the others except for approximate looks. Personally I think the standard Epiphone is the worst of the lot since it actually adds a problem not present on the original by having a bolt on neck which makes what was already a fairly poor upper neck access even worse.

[Delberthot]

As a current owner of a MIK Epiphone Thunderbird Goth, I find these basses to be very good. The combination of mahogany body and super slim neck with minimal taper suits me perfectly. A very comfortable instrument to play.

Being bolt on, its the only one out of them all that allows you to move the strap button to the front of the heel to improve the balance.


The reason that there is lots of choice is that not everyone wants the same thing so what you may dislike, another person may buy because they like the feature(s) you dislike.

As I say, I am very happy with mine but may give a Tokai TB48 a try

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='BigRedX' post='1048505' date='Dec 5 2010, 06:12 PM']I haven't played any Chinese made Tokais yet[/quote]

If you're ever interested you can have a widdle on my chinese Love Rock, it's a guitar of course, but it's an indication of build quality and if you know Les Pauls, it'll give you an idea of how they compare.

I think something to bear in mind is that a lot of "copies" are really just copies of the shape, especially with solid coloured instruments there's not a lot to distinguish at a distance. In my mind a copy is something designed to look like something else, it doesn't mean it's supposed to sound or feel like it. Even within the same model by the same manufacturer there's often a difference in woods, neck, appearance. Warwick being a prime example where a single model can have any number of neck shapes alone (before you even go into woods etc), so long as the body shape is the same, it's often considered different versions of the same instrument.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='icastle' post='1047781' date='Dec 4 2010, 09:14 PM']There are two seperate companies - Tokai China and Tokai Japan.
The Futuramas are made on the Tokai China production line along with Chinese Tokai branded items which are about 1/3 the price of the Japanese ones![/quote]
Is this verified? It's not simply that Tokai Gakki in Hamamatsu contract a Chinese factory to build lower-budget instruments to their specification? It would seem, for example that the Rockinbetter-branded Rick copies come from the same factory that makes MIC Tokais, but according to Tokai UK (who, one assumes, would know) they are nothing whatsoever to do with Tokai. I wouldn't have thought that Chinese Tokais have sufficient market share to warrant a dedicated manufacturing facility.

Interestingly Fender Japan is a separate company from its US parent - it is run by Kanda Shokai & retailer Yamano Gakki. Kanda is owner of the Greco brand & anecdotally, the first run of MIJ Fenders were apparently re-badged Grecos.

This business about the Fender Japan/Tokai contract really does sound like guff made up by some shop assistant trying to appear knowledgeable in order to flog his own-brand cheapos. CIJ Fenders are made by Dyna Gakki as well as Tokai, and I'm sure the end of a time-limited contract with one particular factory would not result in a production shortfall. The thing about Fender "forgetting to extend their copyright" is just laughable.

Futurama? Leaving aside the fact that these days, all copyrights pertaining to that name are likely to be tightly-protected properties of a particular animated sci-fi comedy show, this is just part of a trend. Lately a good few old 60s/70s era brands are being dusted off & stuck on new cheapo instruments & accessories - as well as Futurama, you'll find Antoria, CSL, Westone, Vantage, Ventura, and probably a good few more, if you dig a bit.

Jon.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1049330' date='Dec 6 2010, 02:36 PM']where as I have an email saying they are from the same factory available from Tokai UK and also on the Chinese pricelist[/quote]
Is this subsequent to the discussion in the Rickenfakers thread? Annoying Twit contacted Tokai UK, who told him Rockinbetters were nothing to do with them, I think you claimed your contact had merely said they came from the same factory, rather than being an official Tokai product. Don't think you mentioned a Chinese pricelist before - is that from the manufacturing factory or Tokai? Very interesting, all this!

J.

[daz]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1048150' date='Dec 5 2010, 12:36 PM']I've never seen the Japanese ones, I didn't even realise they do them.

The problem with Tokai is they don't advertise themselves very well, the shop I work at deals them but they don't even have Jazz sounds listed in the catalogue. In fact I think the only bass the do have is their version of the EB0.[/quote]

You are quite right there. They seem to make small importers seek them out and bring in a dozen or two at a time. They're shooting themselves in the foot by not getting more involved in advertising and aggressive pushing of their guitars in magazines, like other manufacturers do. Id like to know more about Tokai and Matsumoto, but all i see are Fender and clones from China.

PS: Do i understand this correctly. a Tokai Rockinbetter is [i]nothing to do with [/i]Tokai ??

Edited December 6, 2010 by daz

[icastle]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1049477' date='Dec 6 2010, 04:06 PM']the whole cash flow fortune telling bullshit[/quote]

... known in some areas as a 'Business Plan'

[icastle]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1049685' date='Dec 6 2010, 06:28 PM']No trust me the cash flow is fortune telling. We aren't the ones doing it, gave a cost and rrp of one bass and it was done for us. I wasn't too happy at the pluck figures from the air but because of the way we are doing things the plan gets done up by what has been described to me as "one of them f***in govt' quangos" We haven't even met the girl that typed it up.
Can't wait to see it but snow has delayed the appointment.

But if the people that need to be impressed would rather see a work of fiction by someone who likely doesn't know what a bass is who are we to argue.[/quote]

"one of them f***in govt' quangos" is a perfectly acceptable technical term
I now have an image of a group of people trying to understand how a fish can have such a high RRP!

[icastle]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1049703' date='Dec 6 2010, 06:49 PM']More like thinking f*** me the price of Beers went up [/quote]

LMAO

[Annoying Twit]

Tokai UK are also the importers for Rockinbetter. But they wouldn't answer my question about whether these are made in the same factory as Chinese Tokai basses. They did tell me before that Rockinbetter basses are nothing to do with Tokai. The link in the UK seems to be: same distributor. But, how many brands are distributed by the same people as front up as Tokai UK.

I've had a search around, and I can't find evidence of a "Tokai Factory" in China. Say, as there actually is an ESP Factory in China. People on the Tokai forum believe that Tokai does not own a factory in China, but subcontract out their manufacture to existing factories. [url="http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=13235"]http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=13235[/url]

If thats the case, then I think these claims about instruments being made "in the Tokai factory" are specious and meaningless. Quite possibly Chinese Tokai instruments are made in a variety of Chinese factories. What if they are made in say the Saein Factory? That would make huge numbers of brands "made in the same factory as Tokais".

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1116353' date='Feb 5 2011, 11:24 AM']The email I have he does say they are from the same Chinese factory.[/quote]

Do Tokai basses only come from one factory?Is the output of that factory or factories primarily Tokai instruments, or do the make a large number of brands with Tokai instruments only being a small proportion of their output? Without this sort of information, we can't make sense of these claims.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1116410' date='Feb 5 2011, 12:13 PM']Either way I would like to know what Tokai Japans take on things is.[/quote]
As far as the Rockinbetters are concerned in real terms it wouldn't make any difference because there's no Tokai 4001/4003 copy (and there never has been) for Rockinbetters to compete with.

J.

[Bassassin]

No idea how music retail hierarchy works really - I'd guess the dealer network is the distributor's responsibility and obviously the distributor here - Tokai UK (or whatever other trade names they might operate under) is who's supplying RockinFakers - and quite possibly blurring the lines about what they actually are. So if Tokai Gakki took any interest beyond sales figures of official product I would guess their beef would be with the distributor rather than individual dealers.

Did you read any of the stuff about the "Fakai" Tokai LP clones in Canada? The story was that the Canadian importer for Tokai couldn't obtain official Tokais with the spec they required, so they bought in guitars from a Korean factory & distributed them badged as Tokai. The dealers had no reason to think they weren't what they said they were, but I don't think I ever read what the upshot was, or if Tokai Gakki themselves got involved at all. Seems the Fakais were better spec than the "real" copies.

J.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1116410' date='Feb 5 2011, 12:13 PM']Either way I would like to know what Tokai Japans take on things is.[/quote]

I asked Tokai Japan this morning. I'll pass on any response I get.

[tino]

[quote name='Bassassin' post='1116438' date='Feb 5 2011, 12:36 PM']As far as the Rockinbetters are concerned in real terms it wouldn't make any difference because there's no Tokai 4001/4003 copy (and there never has been) for Rockinbetters to compete with.

J.[/quote]
However if you promise not to push this point......I will get a shed load run off from Mr Shanghai.....80/20 is that fair?????