live sound

[bobbytodd]

right im in a rock covers band with 2 guitarists and a drummer.latley things have been getting heated between myself and our lead retardist over our live sound.he thinks that the live sound should be vocals loudest then him then the rythm retardist(who agrees with the lead retardist) then drums and finaly me.at our sound check last friday night i stopped playing after the first verse and only the drummer noticed after the song had finished the guitarist turned to me and said thats a good sound.if i can hear myself out front im to loud and its really starting to piss me off so much so that i thought about packing in then i realised ive two grand tied up in this band.and to piss me off even more there was a band in the pub over the road with a pa worth about 53pence and they sounded miles better because you could hear the bass.rant over any ideas on how i can get through to him

[mep]

It's supposed to be a mix where you can hear everybody. Get a independent sound guy to do your PA or offer some advice on mixing. Get your band mates to listen to other live bands and see what it's supposed to sound like. There is no Hierachy on who is the loudest to who is the quietest. The bit about the vocals being the loudest is close to being right as they should be heard over all the instruments.

[bobbytodd]

i said we should get some one to set the sound but unless we get a guy in every week we are just going to go round and round cause he has an ego to keep happy.it must be a guitarist thing because last year we realised that our singer/ryhtm guitarist used to sound check with his guitar turned down he dosnt do that now.its like banging my head off a wall at times

[Ian Savage]

The best way of doing it is to build from the drums up - either get someone whose ears you trust or get yourself out front on a long lead or wireless, then get the drums going (without mics to begin with, even if you usually use them - for pubs you shouldn't need anything more than maybe a little bit of kick drum, blend that in as needed first). Next bring the bass in, e.q.ing and altering the level until it sits nicely with the drums; finally bring the two guitars in over the top, also checking any solo boosts and/or effects that they might bring in.

Take yourselves back onto stage after that and bring up the vocals in your monitors until you've all got enough of what you need in them (if certain monitors need other instruments in there as well, e.g. guitars on opposite sides of the stage needing more of each other or the drummer needing more bass/guitar, do that now as well).

What you SHOULD now have is a mix of instruments which sounds good out front and a mix of instruments and vocals which you can all work with onstage; following that all you should need to do is bring up the vocals and any reverb etc you need in the out front mix.

If you know what you're doing with the gear or know someone who does that little lot should take you half-an-hour tops, and will make you sound more like professionals than any amount of ill-applied top-bollocks PA gear.

If your guitarists start moaning, I'm afraid you're going to have to have 'the discussion'

[Pete Academy]

Many times it's down to frequencies. If you play in the same frequency as the guitarists, you will be battling for who is being heard. I've had this problem in the past with keyboard players. Try putting more mids in your sound. You might find you then cut through their bass/treble heavy sound and you'll suddenly be heard.

Worth a try.

Or tell them to turn down!

[Spike Vincent]

Seems like a guitarist ego problem to me.Get lots of people to say "the bass isn't loud enough" after gigs.

[rOB]

[quote name='Spike Vincent' post='1049835' date='Dec 6 2010, 08:39 PM']Seems like a guitarist ego problem to me.Get lots of people to say "the bass isn't loud enough" after gigs.[/quote]

+1 its a tried and tested technique. Especially if the people saying it are guitarists.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='Ian Savage' post='1049807' date='Dec 6 2010, 08:22 PM']The best way of doing it is to build from the drums up[/quote]

This is sound advice. When you sound check start with the drums and then work from the bassiest instrument (the bass, duh) then through to the most trebly instrument (lead guitar probably in your case, for us it's flute) then do vocals after.

Depending on your style, the bass doesn't have to be an instrument to be heard independantly, it can be just in the background to fatten out the guitarist's sound by sticking to roots.

Also try getting someone who knows what they're doing in for one gig to EQ everything, if the guitars are too bassy or the bass has too many high mids and treble, they can interfere with each other (as someone else said) so just getting someone in to sort them out then roughly remembering the settings can be a big help.

If you can stop playing without half the band noticing, something's very wrong somewhere and definitely worth checking out.

It's also worth noting that ideally nothing should be louder than anything else instrumentally (maybe lead instruments should have a slight hike, but not massive), everything should sit at the same volume but fit together in the mix with EQs and effects (like compression) ideally.

Have you got any videos of your playing? It's possible there's something he doesn't like about your tone, if it's very boomy sounding for example, he might just be hearing that and when you're not playing the boom's gone. He just doesn't realise exactly what it is he's listening to.

Edited December 6, 2010 by ThomBassmonkey

[JTUK]

The bass and drums carry the song and the band..the vocals connect so they should be clear above everything..the gtrs are a dressing...

If he couldn't hear whether you had dropped in or out...well, words fall me.
I doubt you can get through to someone like that. They tend to be the kind of guy who likes to rule the roost but then after a while ..because he can't hear beyond his own part, or is probaly even interested, wonders why no one will play with him.

There are places he needs to be powerful..but you have two gtrs...so there are places where one or both have to cut right down.

Next time, he starts all this nonsense...talk to him about song dynamics.
Or go and see a decent band who play the songs not their own part and rave and RAVE about the gtrs...and the sound and the space..
All of which will go over his head..but you never know...the penny might drop someday..!!

[Lozz196]

All the advice in the previous posts is good, tho as well as upping yr mids, either by agreement (or when they`re not looking) cut the bass by one on each retardists amps, without adjusting the volume.

The other thing I`d go for is find out what this guys favourite band is, then sit down, play the cd of them, and point out each instrument. Then ask, why, if he likes music where every instrument can be heard, does he want to play in a band where that isn`t the case.

I had exactly the same scenario years ago, and the retardist in question couldn`t provide an answer, as we both knew what the answer really was. He just wanted to be the loudest, as in his mind, then everyone would think he was cool. And he genuinely thought it was funny that he was overloud. So at one gig, wanting to prove a point, I turned up ridiculously loud, and said retardist asked the sound guy if I was too loud . The sound guy simply replied "No, he`s just covering up how sh*t you are".

It seemed to work, the point was well and truly rammed home. And I didn`t even know abt the sound guys response til days afterwards.

Extreme maybe, and I wouldn`t recommend you ruining yr bands sound the way I did, but I had got to the point where I knew spoken words had no effect.

[TimR]

The only problem with starting with the drums is that if the venue isn't big enough the band will quickly get too loud for the room.

The guitarist is almost right. Start with the vocals then add the guitars so that they are loud but the vocals are still inteilligble. This may mean adding more treble to the vocals to cut through. Then add the bass. You may have to sacrifice the tone that you have at home but you need to 'scuplt' your tone to fit with the guitars. Then the drummer has to play at the right volume to balance it all out.

If at any point you start to lose the vocals, turn everything else down.

It's a band not a competition on who can be heard and who is loudest. When the guitar boosts for a solo he should just come up 3 or 4 dB so that he can be heard.

Remember girls listen to the words, blokes listen to the music.

[Mog]

Sounds like an a noob mistake. Start with bassdrum levels.In most pubs thats all that needs to be mic'd Get it mixed with the kit. Then bass, slightly above bassdrum level. Guitars are next, blended into the mix. Then vocals. If the vocal is lost and theres no more head room, lower the instruments, either from the desk if everything is mic'd/DI'd or at the amps if not. Simples.
Whats the backline?

[bobbytodd]

when we saw the band in the other pub i tried to explain that the sound they had was way better because you could make out each individual instrument and they were all equal more or less.his reply the guitarist isnt as good as me so you can see what we are up against.the trouble is he's good and knows it he is the look at me type.back of the head solo's and eight finger tapping show off.so come this weeks gig im taking a lad from another band with us he's gonna set the levels

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='TimR' post='1049986' date='Dec 6 2010, 10:45 PM']The only problem with starting with the drums is that if the venue isn't big enough the band will quickly get too loud for the room.[/quote]

Drums are probably going to be the only thing in the set-up that doesn't have a volume control, it makes way more sense to match the things that do have volume controls to that rather than the other way around.

If the room is to small and the drummer needs to play quietly, ask him to play quietly for sound check. It's much easier to match the PA volume to the drummer's volume than vice versa. It's unlikely the drummer will be able to tell how loud he is out front anyway.

[bobbytodd]

the back line we use is drummer-roland v electronic kit with 300w drum monitor,im using a peavey max 450 and peavey 4x10 rythm uses a marshall mg50 watt combo and lead retardist marshall jcm 900 and 4x12 and a 2x12 one each side of the stage.says it all really and our pa consists of 4xrcf art subs and 2xrcf 12"tops and 3xmackie srm 450v2 as monitors when they work.mind we dont use all the pa in small venues

[jimmyb625]

Definitely get someone to come and listen to give an impartial ("oi d1ckhead you're too loud!") viewpoint.

Mind you, if he doesn't listen to you, he probably won't listen to anyone else either.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='bobbytodd' post='1050014' date='Dec 6 2010, 11:08 PM']the back line we use is drummer-roland v electronic kit with 300w drum monitor,im using a peavey max 450 and peavey 4x10 rythm uses a marshall mg50 watt combo and lead retardist marshall jcm 900 and 4x12 and a 2x12 one each side of the stage.says it all really and our pa consists of 4xrcf art subs and 2xrcf 12"tops and 3xmackie srm 450v2 as monitors when they work.mind we dont use all the pa in small venues[/quote]

Tell him to get an attenuator or GTFO. Even with just the 2x12 the JCM is going to be too loud for your average pub gig. He doesn't need to have amps both sides of the stage either, if he just kept to one side then he could blow his own ears off and everyone else could hide from his retarded volume the other side, though I'd still feel sorry for the audience.

Any decent valve guitar amp over about 30w is too loud for pub gigs. Either he should be prepared to sacrifice tone and run it a little cooler or get an attenuator. Having 6x10 cabs with it is absurd. Our guitarist uses a Mesa 50w 1x12 combo and can't get a good tone because it's too loud (he keeps meaning to get an attenuator but hasn't got around to it).

Sorry, guitarists with stupid rigs drives me nuts. If your drummer's using an electric kit, it's ideal for the sound-guy as it means he can have total control over everything, even at low levels. Last thing that should be happening is a retardist (as you call him) ruining that control.

What you could try doing is listening to a CD of a track you play and figuring out how loud all the parts are, then mimicing that as accurately as possible. Maybe even getting someone else to stand out front and tell you what to change or do the sound (assuming you usualy do it yourself).

[Mog]

4x12 in a pubrock band? sorry but he sounds like a tosser. theres no way i could play in that band.yea, i'd be telling them to get the money you're owed and cut butt.

[waynepunkdude]

[quote name='Mog' post='1050041' date='Dec 6 2010, 11:23 PM']4x12 in a pubrock band? sorry but he sounds like a tosser. theres no way i could play in that band.yea, i'd be telling them to get the money you're owed and cut butt.[/quote]


+1

Can't stand egos.

[jimmyb625]

[quote name='bobbytodd' post='1050014' date='Dec 6 2010, 11:08 PM']the back line we use is drummer-roland v electronic kit with 300w drum monitor,[/quote]

This is useful, as it gives you great control over the acoustic volume of the drums.


[quote name='bobbytodd' post='1050014' date='Dec 6 2010, 11:08 PM']im using a peavey max 450 and peavey 4x10 rythm uses a marshall mg50 watt combo[/quote]

Sensible rigs to use.

[quote name='bobbytodd' post='1050014' date='Dec 6 2010, 11:08 PM']and lead retardist marshall jcm 900 and 4x12 and a 2x12 one each side of the stage.[/quote]

I think we may have found the problem....

Get some wire cutters and 'modify' his cabinets, that should clear the problem!


[quote name='bobbytodd' post='1050014' date='Dec 6 2010, 11:08 PM']says it all really and our pa consists of 4xrcf art subs and 2xrcf 12"tops and 3xmackie srm 450v2 as monitors when they work.mind we dont use all the pa in small venues[/quote]

Does he still use his full rig, even when you're not using all of the PA?

One thing to look at, is refusing to help him load anything afterwards. It might persuade him to use less kit...

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='bobbytodd' post='1050002' date='Dec 6 2010, 11:00 PM']his reply the guitarist isnt as good as me[/quote]

If he's too loud then he's no f***** good at music at all, no matter how fast he can run along the fretboard. Does he want to be in a band or perform as a solo act? I've done sound for players like this before, normally I find it's more a matter of psychology than knowing what's technically correct, get him onside and thinking that your idea is his idea and you'll be laughing.

First the egomaniacal idiot needs to be reassured that a well-balanced sound will still let him be heard comfortably above the other instruments because he'll have frequencies where he is dominant. Second, he needs to realise that people hearing a band like this will now think 'what a great guitarist' rather than 'what a loud guitarist'.

It'll really help if, when you do get it sorted with an engineer, people compliment him on his playing in the context of the band's overall sound. Especially if they are fit ladies and compare it favourably with a previous gig where he was 'so loud they couldn't hear properly'. You also have to make sure that your own sound is spot on, filling out the bottom end with a solid tone but not treading on anyone else's toes.

Regarding the 'order' of loudness of instruments, this makes absolutely no sense to a sound engineer whether you're talking about live or recorded. You're not all producing the loudest part of your signal at the same time - live, the drums will always be way louder than anything else at their peak but that lasts a fraction of a second each beat, in between is when you hear the guitar etc. Plus you can have multiple sounds all loudest at different frequencies - the ability of ears to separate out different frequency sounds is why we can enjoy polyphonic music!

It does sound like your guitarist is a few more tuning pegs short of a headstock even than is typical.

[chris_b]

Your guitarist is an idiot.

You sound check to get a balance. It's called "a balance" for one reason only.... you can hear [i]everyone[/i]!

Ask your moron of a guitarist if he can hear all the instruments on his favourite records. He can? Good. That's what your band should sound like.

[bobbytodd]

the whole point of our drummer getting an electronic kit was so the bands onstage volume could be really quiet.well that was the idea anyway but (guitarist)"i need to drive my amp to get the tone i want".if he used a smaller cab he wouldnt have do drive his amp that hard to get his tone.i'll let you know how it goes on friday

[Lozz196]

Having now read the further comments, your guitarist is a pr*t.

Is Mark Tremonti so much louder than the rest of Alterbridge?
Same question re Slash, Kirk Hammet, Clapton, Bonamassa, Page, Beck etc

No, you can hear them, but the rest of the band they are in is also part of why they are so good. Each role can be heard, and provides a good foundation for them to work on/with.

If your idiot guitarist won`t budge, in order of preference, either either sack him or walk yrself. No matter how well he can play, he`s making your band sound cr*p to whoever sees you.

[JTUK]

[quote name='bobbytodd' post='1050148' date='Dec 7 2010, 06:53 AM']the whole point of our drummer getting an electronic kit was so the bands onstage volume could be really quiet.well that was the idea anyway but (guitarist)"i need to drive my amp to get the tone i want".if he used a smaller cab he wouldnt have do drive his amp that hard to get his tone.i'll let you know how it goes on friday[/quote]


well, the thinking is there, in that you want a decent monitor sound on stage.
If your Gtr is driving a 4x12 and 2x12 hard then NOTHING the sound man can do will influence that sound out front in an average sized room/small hall . His gtr faders will be useless as all the sound you hear is a bleed from the gtr on stage.
You have no chance of getting a good balanced sound like that because the band sound is at the mercy of the level he chooses to play at..... and we have established that he hasn't a clue in that regard

You are wasting your money employing a sound engr or time having anyone on the desk.
The band should mix for the stage.. and then let the P.A do some work but with the rig you have, you will blow most pubs anyway.

If I see a gtr with a 4x12 then that always makes me very nervous..
most of the gtrs we use, have little kettle amps of around 18watts and add an extra cab to OD the signal..and the sound doesn't need to be more than that... I have to say these are bollicking sounds, IMO.
Drums should use different snares and sticks for certain venues to regulate their sound but as you are electronic, ( snare as well..?? )the cymbals are the arbiter there.

Great playing gtrs are two a penny, it is the guy who compliments the band and lets the songs breathe who is the guy in demand
and most sought after.