Advice needed on music copyright

[Beedster]

Can anyone update me on the state of play regarding intellectual property and recorded music. I'm working with a singer songwriter who I think has been given some poor advice in this respect by his agent/manager. Specifically, if you post an original song on the web, what rights do you have if another musician uses it, and how would these rights be enforced?

Thanks

Chris

[fatback]

[quote name='Beedster' post='1049956' date='Dec 6 2010, 10:22 PM']Can anyone update me on the state of play regarding intellectual property and recorded music. I'm working with a singer songwriter who I think has been given some poor advice in this respect by his agent/manager. Specifically, if you post an original song on the web, what rights do you have if another musician uses it, and how would these rights be enforced?

Thanks

Chris[/quote]


If you can prove the song is yours and you've asserted your rights by not knowingly allowing other people to use it for free, nobody can use your stuff.

The old trick of mailing yourself the recorded tune by registered post and not opening it works well.

Being able to enforce your copyright is another question altogether. Your main job though is to keep the copyright ownership demonstrable and explicit. It's the implied permission to let other people use your stuff, by not insisting on permissions and contracts, that causes most problems.

[icastle]

[quote name='Beedster' post='1049956' date='Dec 6 2010, 10:22 PM']Can anyone update me on the state of play regarding intellectual property and recorded music. I'm working with a singer songwriter who I think has been given some poor advice in this respect by his agent/manager. Specifically, if you post an original song on the web, what rights do you have if another musician uses it, and how would these rights be enforced?[/quote]

Provided the material is copyrighted it's protected.

Problem is, how the hell do you enforce that protection when the material is possibly being misused on the other side of the world?
I suspect that someone is going to have to have very deep pockets and be prepared to risk emptying them in legal fees.
Would be far easier to not do it if the material is that valuable IMHO.

[fatback]

[quote name='icastle' post='1049995' date='Dec 6 2010, 10:54 PM']Provided the material is copyrighted it's protected.

Problem is, how the hell do you enforce that protection when the material is possibly being misused on the other side of the world?
I suspect that someone is going to have to have very deep pockets and be prepared to risk emptying them in legal fees.
Would be far easier to not do it if the material is that valuable IMHO.[/quote]

Very true. But enforcement is a different issue.

Being ripped off by unauthorised use is bad, but losing your copyright because you haven't protested and made it clear it's yours, is much worse.

You need to avoid letting people argue that the material is in the public domain.

[icastle]

[quote name='fatback' post='1050016' date='Dec 6 2010, 11:09 PM']You need to avoid letting people argue that the material is in the public domain.[/quote]

Even if the material isn't in the public domain, the internet is - as long as the US government don't claim that it belongs to them.
I reckon that would be a pretty big and expensive hurdle to get over if it came to it.

[flyfisher]

If the big media companies can't control copyright abuse with pockets as deep as theirs, what chance the man on the Clapham Omnibus?

Ensuring you can prove it's your original material (as described above) is probably the best you can do in practice. At least then, if anyone makes it big with one of your songs, you can go after them with a claim for royalties.

Otherwise, if it's on the web, it's practically public property these days.

[fatback]

[quote name='flyfisher' post='1050096' date='Dec 7 2010, 12:21 AM']If the big media companies can't control copyright abuse with pockets as deep as theirs, what chance the man on the Clapham Omnibus?

Ensuring you can prove it's your original material (as described above) is probably the best you can do in practice. At least then, if anyone makes it big with one of your songs, you can go after them with a claim for royalties.

Otherwise, if it's on the web, it's practically public property these days.[/quote]


Enforcement is all about whether the guy you chase has the money to make it worthwhile. If it's big, as flyfisher says, you can chase.

But in any case, ownership has to be announced all the time. You can't afford to sue people who use your stuff, but by constantly proclaiming your ownership, if somebody wants to come along and use it for an ad or a movie, they'll have to recognise your ownership and pay. If you've let it go, or don't have proof you wrote it, all bets are off.

And there's a big difference between the mechanical rights, ie the performance, and the copyright ie the song ownership. I presumed Beedster was talking mostly about the song ownership. That's the one that really matters for the songwriter in the end.

btw Public availability isn't the same as public domain. Public domain is where copyright can't be established or has lapsed. Often 'can't be established' is because the originator isn't known or hasn't claimed the rights to their work and has let other people use it without protest or payment. It's why even 'free' use in a contract usually involves charging £1.

[noelk27]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1050062' date='Dec 6 2010, 11:40 PM']AFAIK you cannot stop someone using your material in whatever way they want, once it is out there.[/quote]

Not so. If a prospective user material alters an original work permission must be sought from the copyright holder for use in the altered form. Material has been interpreted to include altering "she" to "he" in a lyric.

[Lenny B]

A couple of quick points to correct from the above;

- if you're in the UK or a UK citizen, you dont need to do anything to copyright music - that happens automatically when it is recorded - and that includes notated, scribbled out or actually recorded to some device

- there are international conventions that protect UK copyrights in other countries (and on the internet)

- 'public domain' in relation to copyright means that the period of copyright has expired (50 yrs for a recording and 70 yrs after the composer's death for a song) and that the rights are now in the public domain (ie they don't belong to anyone) - it doesn't mean that it's simply 'out there' and released.

I wrote these articles for Bass Guitar Magazine a while ago - they may be of use, but let me know if you've any questions.


[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2508&hl=music+business"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...=music+business[/url]

[DanOwens]

I highly recommend registering with Sentric Music [[url="http://www.sentricmusic.com/"]CLICK[/url]] for all things industry-based.

They offer great advice, the industry blog is insightful for any artist plus they do all the royalty collection for a small commission as opposed to registering with the agencies and paying the full fees. They're revolutionising the unsigned/indie music industry at the mo.

Plus, if you register you get sent all the requests for syncs (basically advert music).

Dan

[cetera]

[quote name='DanOwens' post='1050300' date='Dec 7 2010, 10:39 AM']I highly recommend registering with Sentric Music for all things industry-based.

They offer great advice, the industry blog is insightful for any artist plus they do all the royalty collection for a small commission as opposed to registering with the agencies and paying the full fees. They're revolutionising the unsigned/indie music industry at the mo.

Plus, if you register you get sent all the requests for syncs (basically advert music).

Dan[/quote]

Quite the opposite!! I highly recommend NOT signing with Sentric Music. They get people signed to them by praying on the laziness of writers/musicians in registering their works and keeping their performance info up to date. You basically end up paying Sentric for something you could do yourself....
What are these full fees you mention? PRS membership is FREE upfront and you will only ever pay £10 TOTAL (one-off) from your future royalties...

Of course, if you can't be arsed and want to pay them for doing hardly anything instead of obtaining your monies for free then that's your shout...

Edited December 7, 2010 by cetera

[Bilbo]

I have never worried much about PRS as I write jazz tunes that noone ever plays but me (and then noone is listening so who cares). But, when it did matter (in 1981), I was led to believe that there was some rule about having had to have had 30 minutes of your music played on the radio or tv to make you eligible for membership of PRS or something like that. Is that not the case? (I got that piece of advice off a wino outside a pub in Pill, Newport - it was called The Frontline because of the drive by shootings)

[icastle]

[quote name='DanOwens' post='1050300' date='Dec 7 2010, 10:39 AM']I highly recommend registering with Sentric Music [[url="http://www.sentricmusic.com/"]CLICK[/url]] for all things industry-based.[/quote]

[quote name='cetera' post='1050319' date='Dec 7 2010, 10:58 AM']Quite the opposite!! I highly recommend NOT signing with Sentric Music.[/quote]

Just so we have a complete set:

I highly recommend perhaps maybe possibly considering registering or not registering with Sentric Music...

[Bilbo]

I am the only one who noticed that Sentric is an anagram of Cretins?

[Bilbo]

Three works performed at a PRS licenced venue would, I assume, include three tunes played at any old pub in any old town as long as it is PRS registered? Is that correct? I t may be worth me registering (and would be a massive boost to my ego even if I never earned a penny )

[BigRedX]

If you're involved in writing songs/music and you have compositions being performed/broadcast (even if it's only your own band and streaming from you MySpace page at the moment) you should join the PRS.

As cetera, said PRS membership is only £10 at the moment. If your songs as are any good and you're actively promoting them to get them played on local radio etc you should easily make more than that in the first year. Plus if you have stuff on iTunes or one of the other on-line retailers you'll get a small amount every time someone plays the 30 second preview!

I've been a PRS member for almost 30 years now. From a handful of independent/self financed CDs and records being played on local radio plus some tracks available for internet streaming I make on average £50 a year. That's for doing nothing other being a PRS member and having registered the songs that I wrote.

[cetera]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1050374' date='Dec 7 2010, 11:55 AM']PRS membership is not free - it was £25.00 when I joined about 30 years ago and I think it's about £100 now for life,[/quote]

As I said before, it is free to join with the first £10 of your earnings taken for a one-off admin fee.

[cetera]

You'd be amazed (or maybe not) at how many songwriters out there playing large festivals and venues, when asked if they are PRS members, answer "Er... I'm not sure... my Manager handles that sort of stuff..."

What?!?! A writer's PRS income is one of the ONLY income streams that comes direct to you and is not subject to a Management cut! Songwriters need to take charge of this particular business side of their 'art' as it is an increasingly valuable source of income (what with record sales plummeting...). Leaving it to a manager... or getting people like Sentric to represent you (& take a commission) is lazy and stupid...

Edited December 7, 2010 by cetera

[BigRedX]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1050475' date='Dec 7 2010, 01:16 PM']You do not need to have signed a contract with a music publisher or record company, providing you meet the above criteria.

Being a member of PRS has earned my quite a few bob over the years, but hasn't prevented my works being ripped off by other artists - we all steal from each other in music and there is very little completely original music out there.

Life is too short to be precious about these things and music is art not business - at least to the people making the proper stuff.[/quote]
I don't think you've ever need to have a record or publishing deal. You certainly didn't need one when I joined in the early 80s.

The PRS isn't there to prevent copyright theft, it's there to collect performance royalties. Two entirely different things.

You might consider music to be art rather than business, but I'd rather be able to make a living from writing and performing music I love rather than all the other things I have to do in order to pay the bills and which eat into the time available for musical activities.


To get back to the OP:

You haven't been particularly clear about exactly what's happened to the singer's songs. If it's simply that someone else has done covers of them, then provided that he's been credited as the composer/writer there's not a lot they can do, other than join the PRS and start collecting the performance royalties that those covers could be generating. There could be a case for stopping alternative performances of them but that usually would involve proving that the songs in question are being used in a way that's derogatory to the original composer(s). They'd need to take legal advice from someone specialising in musical copyright.

If the other person using them is passing them off as their own works, then the original composer has a stronger case for getting them to stop, but it might in the end be not worth the money time and effort. Again seek legal advice from a music lawyer.

[fatback]

[quote name='Lenny B' post='1050195' date='Dec 7 2010, 09:12 AM']A couple of quick points to correct from the above;

- if you're in the UK or a UK citizen, you dont need to do anything to copyright music - that happens automatically when it is recorded - and that includes notated, scribbled out or actually recorded to some device

- there are international conventions that protect UK copyrights in other countries (and on the internet)

- 'public domain' in relation to copyright means that the period of copyright has expired (50 yrs for a recording and 70 yrs after the composer's death for a song) and that the rights are now in the public domain (ie they don't belong to anyone) - it doesn't mean that it's simply 'out there' and released.

I wrote these articles for Bass Guitar Magazine a while ago - they may be of use, but let me know if you've any questions.


[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2508&hl=music+business"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...=music+business[/url][/quote]

Public Domain also means rights that have not been asserted. Hence the need to credit your copyright at all times.

And yes, copyright is automatic in the UK (not in the States) but you need to be able to prove it was created by you as of a certain date. That's where the posting the recording to your self comes in. If you are a serious songwriter, it might be no harm to copyright in the US as well by registering with the Library of Congress. It's not too expensive, around $40 I think.

Registering with PRS is a different thing; that's about performance royalties, not copyright ownership.

[noelk27]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1050128' date='Dec 7 2010, 02:33 AM']OK I stand corrected - could you give some examples cos I'm interested now ?[/quote]

Copyrights, Designs and Patents Act 1988, Chapter II - use the search function on BAILII (www.bailii.org) to identify judgments related thereto.

[fatback]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1050586' date='Dec 7 2010, 02:48 PM']I can't get my head round that and I'm not being awkward, but can you give some actual examples of copyright owners preventing other people using their works ?

I am really interested to know about this, because I thought anyone could use other people's music. as long as the royalties were fairly distributed.[/quote]

Here's a very straightforward explanation. Applies to the UK as well as Ireland.

[url="http://www.cai.ie/faq/index.htm"]http://www.cai.ie/faq/index.htm[/url]

[Lenny B]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1050630' date='Dec 7 2010, 03:28 PM']Thanks for that, I understand the legal concept of copyright, but I'm not sure how that affects me or other professional composers in everyday life.
I would like some real life examples of ordinary musicians preventing other people from using their works.[/quote]

You can't prevent someone from using another's works in advance, but if you do so without permission they can sue you and get an injunction ordering you to stop using those works.
They can also register a dispute with the PRS and prevent you from getting performance income for those works until the dispute is resolved.

[Lenny B]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1050782' date='Dec 7 2010, 05:41 PM']Can you provide some examples ?
I have never heard of anyone being prevented from using works providing the royalties are correctly assigned.
They may get sued or investigated by PRS and have to re-assign royalties, but they are not stopped from using them permanently - or am I wrong here ?[/quote]


Yup - you're wrong.
I think what you may be referring to is the set MCPS rate for cover versions - 8.5% (from memory) of wholesale price goes to the composer, but that's for a straight cover only - you've no right to do anything other with that song, you can't take excerpts or incorporate any other bits into something else. And that's only for songs (i.e publishing rights) - you can't do anything with recordings without the owner's permission.

If you want examples, just google 'Music Sampling Law' or 'Music Law Disputes' - and remember there's no 'Fair Use' exemptions in the UK

And I'm a lawyer, so please take my word for it - there are the famous sampling infringement cases (Robbie Williams v Ludlow off the top of my head) and thousands of other claims and cases that don't get reported.

[Jase]

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