Bowing? Why not a tuner?

[fatback]

Being a total noob to upright, I'm asking the obvious question.

OK. Everybody says learn to bow. It's good for your intonation. But -

1. Alright, bowing reveals the note better, but it doesn't tell you how right it is. So I get to hear my poor intonation, if that's what it is, more clearly. Is this helpful?
2. A clip on tuner helps me monitor my intonation and fix it. Better than a bow?
3. I don't bow my unlined fretless bass guitar, and my intonation is ok. I know from recording. And it's moving about relative to my hand a lot more than the db is.

So please tell me why I should give lots of precious practice time, which I need to get my reading together etc, on bowing, when a tuner is what I really need (and have).

<climbs in bunker>

In fact, I'd love to learn to bow, but I'm trying to prioritise. So words of wisdom, please

Oops, think I've put this in the wrong place. Sorry.

Edited December 6, 2010 by fatback

[Beedster]

Bowing to develop intonation skills seems a very arse about face way of doing it mate? I'm sure wiser heads will disagree

C

[Gareth Hughes]

I wouldn't say it's a necessity to learn to bow - but I do believe that I've benefited from it. Working through the Simandl book and other classically based books has made my left hand play in a way that I don't think it would have if I had been learning the upright through playing tunes I love - which is how I learned to play bass guitar. So by default learning to play with the bow has taught my left hand to play better. Playing upright for me depends so much on muscle memory and fingering patterns, and I truly believe that the sheer repetitive nature of playing classically based pieces has helped me to play in tune more than had I not done it.

Having said that - I still wouldn't bother playing along and looking at a tuner to check your intonation. It's not something you do on your fretless bass guitar why do it with the upright? I know when I was starting out on upright I had a hard time telling if I was playing in tune when I was practicing by myself. Easy way to change that is to practice along with songs you know - then you'll hear if you're hitting the note bang on. Also beneficial are the Jamey Aebersold Play-Along books - and other books like that, like the Music Minus One books - you can get to hear your bass up close with just one other tuned instrument and use that as your reference point.

And again - having said that - I still, and quite proudly, have a marker for the A note on the E string. Sometimes it's just damn hard to hear the upright clearly live against cymbals and guitars battering away. Having a visual reference makes life a lot easier live. From that A marker, then you have to rely on your muscle memory and fingering patterns - which you'll have drilled into your brain from all that bowing practice.......

[endorka]

[quote name='fatback' post='1050005' date='Dec 6 2010, 11:04 PM']1. Alright, bowing reveals the note better, but it doesn't tell you how right it is. So I get to hear my poor intonation, if that's what it is, more clearly. Is this helpful?[/quote]

Ultimately I think it is. As you have no doubt observed, pizzicato double bass can hide a multitude of tuning problems, far more so than pizzicato on the fretless bass guitar. Bowing is, in effect, a sharper tool at defining pitch, therefore it will ultimately help you develop better intonation.

Also, the envelope of a pizzicato note starts sharp and decays to a flatter pitch. At which point in the envelope do you decide it is in tune? A well bowed note has a constant pitch.

Jennifer

[geoffbassist]

If you don't want to develop bow skills that's fine. However being able to more clearly hear the pitch of the note you are playing will help your intonation by making it easier to hear (and adjust) when you are out of tune. It also helps that the note continues to sound (pizz notes die quickly, more so than a fretless bass guitar).

The aim of pactising intonation is to develop your ear and mussle memory, not bow skills.
Of course if you actually want to use the bow then it makes sense to learn some technique. it's an amazing sound and IMO worth the effort.

For me bowing helped to improve my intonation.

[Bilbo]

I agree that the merits on working with the bow for the purposes discussed are very real. I don't think you need to spend 6 hours a day with it to reap rewards if you are nott looking to a classical career. Half an hour is enough.

What I do think is important, and this is the wisdom of an Ancient which learners would do well to heed, is the value of regular [i]sustained[/i] investment in core skills like learning to read, running through rudimentary motor skills, repeated scales and arpeggios and tedious stuff like string crossing exercises etc. These are [i]far more [/i]use than hours spent learning party tricks like two handed tapping and double thumbing (although that is actually a relatively easy trick to learn). Spending 8 hours a day 'practising' what amounts to licks and tricks on the bass is a great thing to wave around in conversation but it is actually an inefficient use of time. Two hours a day (most days, not every day) of [i]susutained and targetted [/i]practice is far more use in your development. Working with the bow covers a range of disciplines and forces those of us who are seeking to make the transition from electric to double bass to focus on playing this new and wonderful instrument properly and not 'getting by' with what we can bring from the electric.

The best way to prioritise your practice time is to do what you [i]need[/i] to do to get better and not what you [i]want[/i] to do because it supports your delusions about how good you are. The problem with the route I recommend is that the rewards are deferred for months if not years whereas learning a Wooten lick can get you a 'wow' at a jam session much more quickly. You need to ask yourself what you want to be; a musician or a circus act, someone who workd as a player for the rest of their life or someone who is legendary amongst a small circle of impressionalbe teenagers. If you want to play the double bass properly, get bowing.

[Duckyincarnate]

To all these great replies I would add the following. How can you look at a tuner when you are also reading a chord chart or a score? Or looking at other musicians for cues? Developing an aural connection to your intonation is much more helpful than a visual one. Therefore, don't rely on marker dots or electronic tuners but get bowing.

[Earbrass]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1050252' date='Dec 7 2010, 10:11 AM']You need to ask yourself what you want to be; ....someone who workd as a player for the rest of their life or someone who is legendary amongst a small circle of impressionalbe teenagers.[/quote]


Hmmmm.....how fit are these teenagers?

[franzose]

The other benefit of bowing, that does not concern your intonation, is the "opening up" of your sound, especially in the thumb positions.

Bowing makes your bass vibrate a lot more than pizzing and this improves the souns of your instrument. I experienced that espacially in the thumb positions. At the beginning, some notes were hard to ring and sustain. Playing regularily with the bow has open up those notes, that are now clearly and fully ringing.

It also opens your mind because it's so different, but so beautiful.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Earbrass' post='1050341' date='Dec 7 2010, 11:25 AM']Hmmmm.....how fit are these teenagers?[/quote]

Thunk (Bilbo's forehead hitting the desk.....)......

[fatback]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1050372' date='Dec 7 2010, 11:51 AM']Thunk (Bilbo's forehead hitting the desk.....)......[/quote]



Certainly i mean to learn to bow, because it sounds amazing and as Gareth mentioned opens up a world of wonderful music to play. I'm just wondering about how good a training for intonation it is when it doesn't help you correct other than by guesswork.

I imagine that in times past (or now if you're lucky) a learner might have had a teacher sitting at a piano, listening to the intonation of the bow and occasionally going 'ploink' to show what the pitch should really be, maybe or maybe not accompanied by a clip on the ear. Then the learner thinks 'oh right' and learning progresses. Practicing n my own, I don't have anyone to say 'that's pants intonation there my son, hark at this' etc.

So instead, I try to check my intonation every now and again with the tuner on the bridge. Sometimes I check when i feel I'm out, and sometimes when i get to the end of a string crossing phrase and suspect my position has drifted (as it does). And sometimes I spot check just to catch myself out, especially in the lower positions. And I'm certain it's helping me, mostly because it's stopping me getting complacent and forcing me to listen there and then.

It might be that using a bow with the tuner would be even better, but i'm finding it hard to see how the bow without a tuner (or a piano going ploink) can be all that helpful as ear training.

And honestly, I'm not being lazy here. I've been doing everything exactly as even Bilbo and Endorka would want me to. Reading and all

Just trying to be as efficient as possible and get things in the right order.

As always, thanks to all. I can't imagine getting through this without the encouragement given so generously here

Edited December 7, 2010 by fatback

[Gareth Hughes]

I agree with you Fatback, that the bow by itself doesn't improve your intonation. If you can't hear that you're out of tune it doesn't matter if you're out of tune playing arco, pizz or with leftover pizza. To me the bow is more like a magnifying glass showing me what the note really is. As has been said before - playing pizz allows a lot of error as the note does not sustain as long or as clearly. As there is less harmonic content and more fundamental, it's very easy for the leading edge and pitch of the note to get lost amongst other instruments. Given that our common goal (unless you're aiming for unaccompanied solo performances) is to play with other musicians, then it's good practice to figure out a way to play in tune with them.

I don't think anyone will argue that it's impossible to obtain good intonation by only playing pizz - but I would argue that it's easier and a more efficient use of your time practicing with a bow to obtain good intonation. Like I said before - the material you study (often classically orientated) with a bow is excellent training for your left hand to learn the proper shapes to get around the bass. I work from the standpoint that if my forefinger is stopping an A on the E string then my middle finger has Bb under it on the same string, Eb on the A string, Ab on the D, etc. I don't consciously think like that when playing bass guitar but I do very much when playing upright. If I start a phrase on the wrong finger it can completely derail me. With improvising, I've found it a great help to know what notes are available within one position as that can determine what kind of line/phrase I'll be able to play. All of this has come from practicing with a bow. Sure I could have gotten there without it, but I believe I got there sooner with the bow. Call it a musical version of a lazy man's burden.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Gareth Hughes

[dincz]

It's sounding more and more as if ear training is what's needed.

[fatback]

[quote name='dincz' post='1050713' date='Dec 7 2010, 04:42 PM']It's sounding more and more as if ear training is what's needed.[/quote]

Well, I don't have problems with the fretless bg, but as Endorka says (and I didn't know this) the note is much clearer on bg. So i take the point. I'm finding the tuner is very helpful as a confirmation of what my ear is telling me. I'm not saying I watch it all the time.

I'll certainly get around to the bow, whenever I can get hold of a teacher, but I'm glad I didn't start with it straight away. I guess I'm trying not to confuse myself with too many things at the same time.

So far, having been able to get only one lesson, I've sorted out a kind of syllabus for myself, and it seems to be working ok. I've found it effective to start with only the right hand and open strings, using Rufus Reid's book. That got me reading rhythms fluently without worrying too much about the notes (my weakness reading was always rhythm). That got me some good callouses too. I used Friedland's video for right hand technique. Then I moved to Micheal Moore's book to get the scales, arpeggios etc going. I use some Aebersold for this too. Ray Brown's book and Simandl next.

Last question: Gareth says he uses a marking on the A. So do I, but there's a feeling of cheating about it that I don't feel about side markers on bass guitar. Is there any downside to doing that? Is it just a macho thing not to use them? For that matter, why don't uprights have side markers?

So many Qs

Edited December 7, 2010 by fatback

[Gareth Hughes]

There is undoubtedly a stigma about using side markers on an upright. So what. I could care less. The guy/gal that has hired me could care less that I've got side markers on. However, they sure do care if I'm playing out of tune.

As much as I'd like to be a purist and be talented enough to not even look at that three foot long fingerboard and know within a millimeter where exactly to put my finger to play A on the E string or a high Bb flat on the G string - I'll happily admit that I have had, do have and will continue to have some trouble with it as long as I'm playing in some of the less luxurious venues in this country, crammed up tight beside perpetually ringing cymbals and guitarists that believe the only way is up.

Also, maybe it would be different if I'd started playing upright first and bass guitar second, but I didn't and so that's the way my learning has developed - I associate certain notes with certain dots on the neck. Shoot me please, I'm not worthy to live.........

Edited December 7, 2010 by Gareth Hughes

[endorka]

Some more thoughts:

Don't worry about having a dot maker or whatever on the side of the neck of the double bass. In my experience, most people have some visual reference to at least get them started in tune. I don't have any markers, but what I do have is a small dent on the side of the neck more or less where the G on the E string is. There is also a small smudge of glue around A on the E string. I use these in exactly the same way as a dot marker, and I suspect most double bass players have similar visual markings, be it a certain grain in the wood, or some other artifact.

I have taken two aspects to intonation training on the double bass. The first was advised by my teacher who recommended playing scales into a tuner as a starting point to [b]train your ears to hear the intervals properly[/b], because what many people think of as a certain interval is not quite accurate. This is a useful exercise up to a point, but as others have stated, you can't spend a whole gig staring at a tuner to check you are in tune.

To my mind, the next thing is to set up a solid reference point. Put the tuner away, and put some very slow scales into a sequencer using a sound that does not have any vibrato, and try to play along with them using the bow on the double bass. The tuning of your initital efforts will probably shock you, but it does get better.

This again is useful up to a point, but the rigidity imposed by it can be limiting. The next thing I did was to put a chord played on piano into the sequencer, e.g. C major triad, then play the C major scale along to it. This gives you more freedom, but still provides a strong reference point for developing tuning.

It is possible to do a similar exercise using a drone of one note, but I find this very forgiving in terms of the tuning of intervals, and it can quiet easily lead to you playing in "just" intonation rather than even tempered tuning. This may or may not be a bad thing, depending on what kind of other musicians you regularly play with.

Jennifer

[fatback]

Thanks Jennifer, that is seriously useful. I'll give some of those techniques a shot.

Gareth, I'm with you on the markers. Especially since I can't stand still when I'm playing I might even add a couple on the G and B.

[Gareth Hughes]

I've found the markers to be a life saver on some gigs - particularly those ones where the sound is too loud/gawd-awful or just plain mud. If I can put my finger on one note and know for sure, without hearing it, that I'm in tune, then that goes a long way to getting back on course. I'm talking about the really horrible gigs in the extreme, but they do happen to nice gigs too. I played in a beautiful church in Koln, Germany this year - for the voices and acoustic guitar it was pretty - for me, it was a sea if in-distinction.

To add to what Jennifer has suggested - one thing I've found useful is to get a drumbeat and a keyboard/guitar loop going on Garageband, or something similar - and play along with that. Even if the harmony instrument is playing something interesting/boring/funky, as long as it's in one key I just practice scales and arpeggios against it, moving between the major and relative minor. Another benefit is that, coming from the bass guitar world, I find playing along with a drum machine/metronome to be quite valuable as there are physical timing difference between the two instruments - both in the muscle speed/dexterity it takes to produce a note from your fingers and also the time it takes for the instrument to produce it. In other words - those funky 16th lines that come so easily on a fretted bass guitar are a lot harder to play and hear on an upright and they also require a different way of playing.

[fatback]

[quote name='Gareth Hughes' post='1050923' date='Dec 7 2010, 07:30 PM']I've found the markers to be a life saver on some gigs - particularly those ones where the sound is too loud/gawd-awful or just plain mud. If I can put my finger on one note and know for sure, without hearing it, that I'm in tune, then that goes a long way to getting back on course. I'm talking about the really horrible gigs in the extreme, but they do happen to nice gigs too. I played in a beautiful church in Koln, Germany this year - for the voices and acoustic guitar it was pretty - for me, it was a sea if in-distinction.

To add to what Jennifer has suggested - one thing I've found useful is to get a drumbeat and a keyboard/guitar loop going on Garageband, or something similar - and play along with that. Even if the harmony instrument is playing something interesting/boring/funky, as long as it's in one key I just practice scales and arpeggios against it, moving between the major and relative minor. Another benefit is that, coming from the bass guitar world, I find playing along with a drum machine/metronome to be quite valuable as there are physical timing difference between the two instruments - both in the muscle speed/dexterity it takes to produce a note from your fingers and also the time it takes for the instrument to produce it. In other words - those funky 16th lines that come so easily on a fretted bass guitar are a lot harder to play and hear on an upright and they also require a different way of playing.[/quote]

Good advice, I'll get something going on Cubase. As it is, i always practice with a metronome, even on BG, so I should be alright on that front, but it'd be fun to play along to something in a noodly kind of way Even arpeggios

[marvin spangles]

[quote name='fatback' post='1050576' date='Dec 7 2010, 03:32 PM']
I'm just wondering about how good a training for intonation it is when it doesn't help you correct other than by guesswork.[/quote]
One of the fundamental problems inherent in playing the double bass is the ability to play in tune. Developing an accurate muscular memory is essential. Going to a teacher (at the age of 50) and doing some classical stuff really helped me big time with my intonation. I am sorry I didn't do it years ago. You talk about guess work. The whole issue is really to take guess work out of it. eg Try playing a two octave scale on one string. If you have to gliss to the correct pitch then you have learnt nothing. Be very critical . Do it slow until you can play it in tune without adjusting.

[fatback]

[quote name='marvin spangles' post='1051235' date='Dec 8 2010, 02:05 AM']One of the fundamental problems inherent in playing the double bass is the ability to play in tune. Developing an accurate muscular memory is essential. Going to a teacher (at the age of 50) and doing some classical stuff really helped me big time with my intonation. I am sorry I didn't do it years ago. You talk about guess work. The whole issue is really to take guess work out of it. eg Try playing a two octave scale on one string. If you have to gliss to the correct pitch then you have learnt nothing. Be very critical . Do it slow until you can play it in tune without adjusting.[/quote]


Seems to me though, from all the answers above, that the traditional advice to 'learn bowing because it helps your intonation' should really say 'learn bowing [i]with a reference[/i] because it helps your intonation.

The idea of using the bow with in-tune recordings or a sequencer really does answer my question. You have to have feedback to learn.

That's what I'll do, then.

Edited December 8, 2010 by fatback

[Gareth Hughes]

Yes and no to with a reference pitch. I think it's a given that you should practice with a reference - be it for pitch or timing. Consistently practicing without either of those present leads to a false sense of security, in my opinion. I know I've worked up some lines that I thought were spot on only to be shown that I was tripping up left and right once I put a metronome on or a reference pitch.

Like had been said - you can learn to play in tune without a bow BUT you'll hear if you're out of tune instantly with the bow, whereas a plucked note can hide a multitude of sins. More so on upright than bass guitar, I believe that repetition is your friend. Get a fingering pattern for a major scale on one string, or across one position and just play it until you don't have to think where the next note is.

I've also found naming each note to be very helpful - even on keys like C Major or F Major (with few or no accidentals) - it helps to build a reference to the note you're just played and the one you're about to play. It's very easy to get lost on that fingerboard. And it's sure helping me through C# Major, etc.

Visualising each note and the ones around it also helps me a lot - picturing what notes lie under each finger on each string. I think on another post you mentioned feeling like this might make you feel confined to playing only in that position or not having a full octave available in one position. Well, sometimes that's just the way it is. I know I'm a long way off being able to play mu upright with the same fluidity as my electric. In this regard the two instruments are only similar in name - they're both bass, sure, but that doesn't mean you should expect to play on one like you do on the other.

[fatback]

[quote name='Gareth Hughes' post='1052527' date='Dec 9 2010, 10:50 AM']Yes and no to with a reference pitch. I think it's a given that you should practice with a reference - be it for pitch or timing. Consistently practicing without either of those present leads to a false sense of security, in my opinion. I know I've worked up some lines that I thought were spot on only to be shown that I was tripping up left and right once I put a metronome on or a reference pitch.

Like had been said - you can learn to play in tune without a bow BUT you'll hear if you're out of tune instantly with the bow, whereas a plucked note can hide a multitude of sins. More so on upright than bass guitar, I believe that repetition is your friend. Get a fingering pattern for a major scale on one string, or across one position and just play it until you don't have to think where the next note is.

I've also found naming each note to be very helpful - even on keys like C Major or F Major (with few or no accidentals) - it helps to build a reference to the note you're just played and the one you're about to play. It's very easy to get lost on that fingerboard. And it's sure helping me through C# Major, etc.

Visualising each note and the ones around it also helps me a lot - picturing what notes lie under each finger on each string. I think on another post you mentioned feeling like this might make you feel confined to playing only in that position or not having a full octave available in one position. Well, sometimes that's just the way it is. I know I'm a long way off being able to play mu upright with the same fluidity as my electric. In this regard the two instruments are only similar in name - they're both bass, sure, but that doesn't mean you should expect to play on one like you do on the other.[/quote]

I can see what you're saying there alright. I already sing the names of the notes as I play them, if there's time, and that's definitely helping me. Also, on this visualising business, practicing last night, I found myself consciously trying to visualise the overlaps of adjacent positions, and it seemed to be making some sense.

I can see I think how learning by positions could force a separation in the mind between the note and the patterns, and that would be a big plus. I am cheating a bit though, by doing the position exercises and then playing afterwards ignoring positions and thinking in my old scalar way.

Or is that some kind of moral hazard ?

Hugely enjoying the daily frustrations, though. My other half even claims not to mind the constant stream of swearing she hears from the practice room, as it's probably therapeutic in all kinds of subtle ways . I'm waiting for someone here to remind me to check I'm swearing in tune.

[Gareth Hughes]

Well, all long as you're swearing F's you're intonation will be fine.

(sorry, that's the best I could muster)

[fatback]

[quote name='Gareth Hughes' post='1052832' date='Dec 9 2010, 02:50 PM']Well, all long as you're swearing F's you're intonation will be fine.

(sorry, that's the best I could muster)[/quote]