positions, keys and chords - how to think

[fatback]

I see that 90% of the books on playing upright do it by positions, so there must be a good reason. But what is it?

How do you integrate that with thinking in keys, chords and scales?

On bass guitar i think first of keys, chords and related scales and modes. I don't care where they are on the neck. And I don't have to know the name of every note on the neck instantly (although i do, if you give me a sec to think about it).

So why am I learning a couple of keys in all these positions, when without changing position I can't even get past an octave? And if i want to play chords in that key I end up thinking in modes anyway, and I still need to shift.

Is it so if I see something in Fmaj I go, ok proceed to 1st position? Surely not. On guitar I'd choose the position in which to play a particular chord or scale on the basis of where else I needed to shift to, ie do I use my pinkie on the root or my middle finger etc.

I'm wondering (now I get the tin hat on again) whether the position way of learning isn't best suited to reading written lines rather than improvising over chords. Do tell me I'm wrong.

Thanks for bearing with me again

I just find it easier to do stuff when I know why I'm supposed to do it that way. Once I know, I'm very tame, I assure you.

Edited December 7, 2010 by fatback

[endorka]

[quote name='fatback' post='1051148' date='Dec 7 2010, 11:22 PM']I'm wondering (now I get the tin hat on again) whether the position way of learning isn't best suited to reading written lines rather than improvising over chords. Do tell me I'm wrong.[/quote]

I'd say you are partly wrong :-)

Classical music contains many technically demanding parts, and many more variations than just about any other music. One aspect of the way classical string players negotiate these difficulties is to work out fingerings for the passages, that they will play *exactly* the same way every time they play a piece. Nor for them starting a phrase with the index finger one day and the pinky the next! It is hard enough to play a passage one way without having to learn how to do it two or more different ways. Always playing the passage the same way will improve "muscle memory" and intonation more quickly, and will allow you to get to the development of the actual music sooner.

I see the Simandl position system as a component of achieving this.

As you become more familiar with the instrument, you become quicker/better at identifying the most efficient fingerings for a given passage, to the point where you can quite often do it on the fly while sight reading.

So in this sense, it would probably be correct to say that the genesis of position based playing comes from the classical/reading tradition.

However! As you become more used to thinking in terms of positions, it becomes part of your improvising as well. I understand that it seems odd that a system that seems to involve a considerable amount of planning ahead could do so, but it does. I'm afraid I can't describe how this happens; all I remember is that at one point I thought the way you did, then sometime later after considerable practice the position/improvising dichotomy resolved itself and became integrated.

Jennifer

[Bilbo]

I agree, J. I also think that the nature of the double bass finger board increases the reliance on open strings as a tool and reduces the tendency electric players have of playing set patterns and just moving them up and down a fret to change key. I am finding that the position playing really starts to open up the neck and to reduce the reliance upon licks and learned habits.

I think also that there is an element of trust here. Fatback has posted a couple of times questioning 'sacred cows' in the practicing of double bass and, whilst I have no problem with attacks on the status quo, I do feel that this can be a potentially, and I stress potentially, negative approach to utilising a learning method that has a well established record of success. I woudl suggest you work with the established methods and see where they take you. They certainly won't hold you back and may take you to places you would not go otherwise.

I would also recommend Neil Tarlton's two books 'Beginning Scales' and 'The Essentials of Sevcik' (Google them) - the second of these is for arco work but I am finding them both to be very useful in breaking down your basic techniques to the essential parts. Not a replacement for Simandl but a valuable supplement.

[benbastin]

The Way I see these fingering methods is a system of discovering the neck. In simandle you will be guided through positions up the neck then exercises that link these positions. So the difference with electric bass being that you don't have to remember exactly where the notes are as you have frets, lines or dots to help you. With double bass you need to develop a system to find all the notes, then expand to be able to play what ever notes you want to and to jump around from position to position. But knowing how far to jump, how big your hand must be, what other notes you have around you.

I see how it may look strange, but its almost a step before that of scales and more linear playing. It all pays off. I remember how long I spent playing only in half position, and being so scared when a Db came up in a chord chart. But slowly the whole bass opens up to you, and no note is harder to play than another one.

I hope this ramble makes sense.

[fatback]

Very helpful answers as always, thanks all.

Although Bilbo has me marked down as a troublemaker

Seems the moral of the learning by positions story is, eventually the different ways of thinking will join up. I can accept that, coming from wiser heads

And I accept what you say, Bilbo, about a certain amount of trust being a good thing. However, I've always found it pays off not to accept the usual way of doing things without question. I've taught a lot over my careers and at every level, and one thing I know for sure is that individuals differ enormously in the mental structures they have, and so in the ways they need to approach subjects. One size rarely fits all. It's also a good teaching principle to map out for the student where things are headed and why.

I'm no different from anybody else in needing this. Which, of course, is where a wonderful place like this helps so much.

btw, I did get the Tarlton book on your recommendation Bilbo; thanks for that. See, I do pay attention

Edited December 8, 2010 by fatback

[Bilbo]

I just worry sometimes that people (noone in particular) are always looking for shortcuts when the best way of learninig to do something is the tried and teste method of long, drawn out repetition of small details that, over time come together to deliver a level of competence that is of more use that a bag of tricks that are not really that transferable.

[fatback]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1051774' date='Dec 8 2010, 03:19 PM']I just worry sometimes that people (noone in particular) are always looking for shortcuts when the best way of learninig to do something is the tried and teste method of long, drawn out repetition of small details that, over time come together to deliver a level of competence that is of more use that a bag of tricks that are not really that transferable.[/quote]


I agree wholeheartedly. I'm determined to do this properly. But here's an example of how one tactic worked for me better than another, and I only reached it by trying to think it through:

I was determined to use the DB as a means of learning to sight read, something I hadn't done since I was a kid playing the trumpet (and I was rubbish at it then). But, i reckoned that trying to read, use right hand, use left hand and get callouses all at the same time was a bit much. So I broke it down and started with only the right hand and learning to read only rhythms, ignoring all but open strings. As it happens, Rufus Reid's book starts out this way, so i started with that book and ignored other books at first. Result: a huge breakthrough for me and a big boost in confidence at an early stage. With a big scary (to me) obstacle out of the way, I was then able to move on. Other people mightn't have faced the same obstacle at all.

The point I'm making is that I might have just started the traditional way with Simandl, as I guess I was expected to do. If I had, I think I'd be struggling by now. In that case it paid to ask questions and be flexible.

It's possible to go down the wrong road altogether, of course, especially without a teacher (geographical probs), but that's why I keep asking dumb questions here.

It's amazingly helpful to hear what experienced players and fellow beginners have to say. Can't imagine taking on this beast without.

Edited December 8, 2010 by fatback