Difference between 10" an 12" Speaker?

[Billy Apple]

Please help,

I've always had 15" speakers, and I'm looking to buy a proper stack. I always thought the bigger the speaker, the better for a bass. Now it seems the standard is for 410's, but a guitarist would use 412's, it makes no sense to me!? I want an amp head, with two sexy cabs. Who thinks they know what is the best configuration, and why?

cheers,

Billy

[JMT3781]

oh lordy.. the can of worms has been opened..

check out some of the pinned topics in the amps and cabs section.. all this has been answered by people far cleverer than me

[LukeFRC]

i've just changed cabs from a 2x12 to a 2x10.
very different sounds, but then there are about a million different other variables.

i would say if in the future I sold this cab and went looking for a new one, I would look at the 12's first

[Billy Apple]

Thanks. I'll have a look

[Billy Apple]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='1051163' date='Dec 7 2010, 11:41 PM']i've just changed cabs from a 2x12 to a 2x10.
very different sounds, but then there are about a million different other variables.

i would say if in the future I sold this cab and went looking for a new one, I would look at the 12's first[/quote]

You don't seem happy with 10's, what do you think it is about 12's that do it for you?

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='billyapple' post='1051168' date='Dec 7 2010, 11:46 PM']You don't seem happy with 10's, what do you think it is about 12's that do it for you?[/quote]

oh I am, It's just in the 'new sound getting used to' stage.
I went from a techsoundsytems 2x12 with normal speakers in a wee diddy cab to the tecamp 210M with neo speaker, the tecamp can go way lower but has a much flater responce, the 2x12 sounded so sweet and middy.
I'm not planning on changing anytime soonever, but if I did and drew up a list of what I would want to try the 12's would be first and 10's second.
actually if i was going to buy a new cab, well i just did, well if i was going to buy one and money was no option, barefaced looks nice, and the big one is a 15... and a 6.5....

[Phil Starr]

There are technical differences between 10" and 12" speakers but the overall sound of a speaker is the combination of many factors so there is no such thing as a 10" or 12" sound. Technical knowledge is, for me, fun and it might help you to home in on certain choices but to choose your perfect speaker you need only to use your ears.

Bigger speakers move more air for the same excursion movement. They can potentially be louder than smaller speakers but lots of other factors also affect this; like coil geometry and magnet size.

Big cones tend to be heavier so they tend to resonate at lower frequencies but this depends upon the stiffness of the suspension and how thick the designer has made the cone. Lighter cones can be made to track the music signal more accurately but again many other factors can affect this.

All speakers start to have an irregular dispersion pattern and frequency response once they are producing sounds whose wavelengths are shorter than the cone diameter so high frequencies cannot be produced well by big speakers even if you lighten the cone. However speaker cones flex and most designs exploit this to produce sound well above the piston zone.

There are so many variables for designers to play with that it is impossible to generalise on the basis of size alone. It's not true to say size doesn't matter but you could also say 'it's not the meat it's the motion'.

Trust your ears

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

The only factor purely attributable to cone size is dispersion. Everything else is based on driver specs. Well explained here:
[url="http://www.eminence.com/resources/data.asp"]http://www.eminence.com/resources/data.asp[/url]

[icastle]

[quote name='billyapple' post='1051156' date='Dec 7 2010, 11:35 PM']Who thinks they know what is the best configuration, and why?[/quote]

Everyone has a different take on this, there is no 'right' or 'wrong' answer.
It all depends on what you are looking for sound wise, the practicalities of moving this stuff to a venue and if you want flexibility.

I wanted flexibility so I went for a 2x10 and a 1x15.
Gives me the degree of punch I want from the 2x10 plus a nice bottom end from the 1x15.
It gives me flexibility (so for smaller venues I use the 2x10 on it's own or the 1x15 on its own if I want to run an EUB through it).
It'll also all fit in my car

[Lozz196]

I`ve used many different set-ups with different combinations of speakers. I have found that I like all the speakers to be the same size, so 2x10 & 1x15 is not for me. Not cos of sound, its more that, say I`m using a 4x10 for regular size gigs, if I play a larger venue, adding a 1x15 seems to change the sound, whereas adding a 2x10 keeps everything the same, just with more presence. This however has been with gear I`ve used in the past, so it may change, dependent on brand/performance.

Recently, I`ve been using a Marshall 4x12 which has amazing depth, but it`s a tad "boomy" with my new Orange Terror amp, so have just got an Ampeg 4x10 to try and keep the low-end there, but not overpower everything. I hope it wasn`t an expensive experiment.

So as they say, each to their own preference, and even then you can find that one cab works great with certain amps, but not with others.

[lowhand_mike]

recently changed to a 4x10 from a 2x10, same brand, difference is pretty clear, 4x10 is much more punchy and has more depth, the 2x10 was clearer adn more attacky and also benifited from being able to stand them vertically so better projection (imo) though were i to add another 4x10 on top i would probably get the high end stuff out again due to the lack of floor coupling of the top cab. stick a cab on the floor the sound will be deeper, stick it on a beer crate and it will get more middy so its not just the cab that makes the difference but the surroundings its used in.
have used 15's and didnt like them on their own but i may like them in a stack.
unfortunately there is no definitive answer to this which seems to be what you are after, like the others said trust your ears.

[Slipperydick]

Why does nobody use 18" speakers anymore ?

I used to use an 18" Goodmans and a Marshall 4X12 at one time, and it was truly, awsome. But then I stopped playing for a few years, and when I started again 18s seem to have dissapeared.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Slipperydick

[Happy Jack]

At this moment, this topic appears on my screen as

[color="#0000FF"][b]Difference between 10" and 12" by Slipperydick [/b][/color]...

[Slipperydick]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='1051451' date='Dec 8 2010, 10:50 AM']At this moment, this topic appears on my screen as

[color="#0000FF"][b]Difference between 10" and 12" by Slipperydick [/b][/color]... [/quote]

[4 Strings]

I do! Well, I'd like more of an opportunity to, a Hartke 1800, it gives a truly massive sound.

Thread here: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=109207&st=0&p=1010193&#entry1010193"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...p;#entry1010193[/url]

Reason 1 is that its a huge lump of a thing. Got wheels and a handle etc but you can't pick it up. Not going to be in regular use. Little Ampeg 112 goes out way more often.

Reason 2 is that I know I'd be trying to justify it to the rest of the band who will be thinking I'm just trying to be louder

Reason 3 is that full range tone is now expected by bass players, back in the day bass was expected - might be changing back towards that actually - and 18s don't do upper registers too well, almost always sound muddy compared to what's now expected. As an add on to my regular 2x10, if the gig is big enough (and just for the fun of it), its great.




[quote name='Slipperydick' post='1051424' date='Dec 8 2010, 10:35 AM']Why does nobody use 18" speakers anymore ?

I used to use an 18" Goodmans and a Marshall 4X12 at one time, and it was truly, awsome. But then I stopped playing for a few years, and when I started again 18s seem to have dissapeared.[/quote]

[icastle]

[quote name='Slipperydick' post='1051424' date='Dec 8 2010, 10:35 AM']Why does nobody use 18" speakers anymore ?

I used to use an 18" Goodmans and a Marshall 4X12 at one time, and it was truly, awsome. But then I stopped playing for a few years, and when I started again 18s seem to have dissapeared.[/quote]

You can still buy the drivers, albeit not as many option as there used to be.
18" bass cabs have pretty much faded out of the bass guitar market - too damn big

[xgsjx]

You do still get 18" cabs but they're usually reserved for PA systems. Perfectly good to use on a bass rig.

[Slipperydick]

The one I had was the same size - even looked like - a 4X12

Wouldve sounded a bit dull on its own I suppose, but was great for keeping the 4X12 high up where I could hear it and for making everything the stage vibrate. Felt as much as heard.

I use a Hartke 4X10 these days though.

[algmusic]

I've usually been a 4x10 man, then I went down the 2x10 and 1x15 as an extension cab.. But I'm thinking about getting two 1x12's, as I'm falling for those lovely mids you get in basses.. I'm thinking the Aggies GS112 or DB112

You have to use your ears, everyone wants something different.. the bass, room and amp and if you play with PA all play a lot in this but In general rule in my non geeky knowledge and experience, but only MO

10's - punchy
12's - warmer (nice low mids)
15's big bottom end

so
2x10 punchy - good for small gigs
4x10 punchy, but a fuller tone
6x10 punchy and bigger sound
8x10 Standard tour rig - full tone with good punch and big lows

1x12 warm - good for small gigs
2x12 full warm sound

2x10+15 - punchy and bottom end, some say best of both

2x15 - great for reggae - dubby like
4x12 - big rock sound, but maybe a touch wolley, but not with modern cabs

18's ???? - earthquake

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='algmusic' post='1052882' date='Dec 9 2010, 03:24 PM']I've usually been a 4x10 man, then I went down the 2x10 and 1x15 as an extension cab.. But I'm thinking about getting two 1x12's, as I'm falling for those lovely mids you get in basses.. I'm thinking the Aggies GS112 or DB112

You have to use your ears, everyone wants something different.. the bass, room and amp and if you play with PA all play a lot in this but In general rule in my non geeky knowledge and experience, but only MO

10's - punchy
12's - warmer (nice low mids)
15's big bottom end

so
2x10 punchy - good for small gigs
4x10 punchy, but a fuller tone
6x10 punchy and bigger sound
8x10 Standard tour rig - full tone with good punch and big lows

1x12 warm - good for small gigs
2x12 full warm sound

2x10+15 - punchy and bottom end, some say best of both

2x15 - great for reggae - dubby like
4x12 - big rock sound, but maybe a touch wolley, [b]but not with modern cabs[/b]

18's ???? - earthquake[/quote]

Really, none of these generalisations apply to modern cabs. But a lot of old cabs are still being made.

[Noisyjon]

I use two modern 1x15" cabs and the sound is all there up to 4kHz. They sound great in the band context and a single cab records really nicely.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='jonthebass' post='1053099' date='Dec 9 2010, 12:32 PM']I use two modern 1x15" cabs and the sound is all there up to 4kHz.[/quote]Not if you move over a few feet. At 4kHz the average fifteen is down 20dB at 45 degrees off-axis, compared to 10dB for the average ten. Of course if you put two tens side by side their dispersion is halved, so with that configuration they work no better off-axis than one fifteen anyway.

[quote]Really, none of these generalisations apply to modern cabs. But a lot of old cabs are still being made[/quote]They didn't apply to vintage cabs either. If they did then all cabs loaded with tens would sound the same, as would all cabs loaded with twelves, fifteens, etc., and we could weed out 98% of the cabs out there as unnecessary duplication.

[Noisyjon]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1053211' date='Dec 9 2010, 06:59 PM']Not if you move over a few feet. At 4kHz the average fifteen is down 20dB at 45 degrees off-axis, compared to 10dB for the average ten. Of course if you put two tens side by side their dispersion is halved, so with that configuration they work no better off-axis than one fifteen anyway...[/quote]

Hi Bill,
This speaker & cab info you divulge to us is very interesting and I'm grateful for it.
Am I right in thinking this is why the two 2x10" cabs stacked vertically is pretty much the ideal setup?

Cheers,
Jon

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1053211' date='Dec 9 2010, 06:59 PM']They didn't apply to vintage cabs either. If they did then all cabs loaded with tens would sound the same, as would all cabs loaded with twelves, fifteens, etc., and we could weed out 98% of the cabs out there as unnecessary duplication.[/quote]

Those generalisations don't say that though, they say it changes according to configuration. There is a reason why the generalisations exist, but it is rooted in a point where there were far fewer choices of cab, and most of those choices are forgotten. So when you say 8x10, people are picturing an ampeg.

The ideal setup is DI and in ear monitoring.

[4 Strings]

No, no, no, no, no.

Did a gig like that, electronic drums to boot. It was a horrible (an horrible?) experience. No idea what the sound was like, no feeling at all, just away in my little world. Its one thing getting things accurate in the studio but this was so sterilised for a live performance that the word 'clinically cold' would be best used to describe it.

Another subject, I know.

btw, here's a pic of the 18 I'm always looking for opportunities to use:



[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1053231' date='Dec 9 2010, 07:14 PM']The ideal setup is DI and in ear monitoring.[/quote]