Doubling

[Doddy]

How many people on here regularly get hired to play both electric and upright bass?
Have you found that playing both has increased your workload?

I'm in a funny position,in that I work for some people who don't realise that I play the upright,whereas others don't know that I play electric bass. There are also some people who book me specifically because I can double on both.
I'm currently doing panto,which I was called for because I can play both,but there is at least one show MD who books me for the modern shows which have difficult electric bass parts,yet consistently passes me over for all of the more traditional shows which require simpler parts played on upright. I've also done (mostly jazz) gigs where I've been told that they prefer my upright playing....weird.

[Cat Burrito]

I only really tout myself around a small circle of musician friends and all know I do both. When I initially branched out to include the upright there was a LOT of interest but things have settled down a bit more now.

My current band has me doing both & the first 3 months of 2011 didn't see me touch a bass guitar but for no real reason since then I've only managed one gig on the upright since. We've just cut an album that is very much a rock record & all the upright tunes got cut from the final listing. However there is already talk about the next one being much more acoustic so I can see things going full circle.

[icastle]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1054688' date='Dec 11 2010, 09:07 AM']How many people on here regularly get hired to play both electric and upright bass?
Have you found that playing both has increased your workload?[/quote]

Upright is a fairly new addition to my 'skillset'.
There was an initial surge of interest off the back of my electric work but things have settled back down to about 70/30 in favour of the electric bass now.

[lojo]

I cant comment re playing as Im not pro player like you

However, I can comment on the business approach to people not knowing the full extent of what you do

I have sometimes found we are involved with projects where we only tackle a certain aspect whilst running another project at the same time and we are involved in the area we are not doing in the other one, hope that makes sense

Usually this turns out to be that when we get recommended, clients often take the area of work you are recommended on and assume without asking thats you defined area and limit and only request prices for that aspect, and more often than not they say after discovering we can do the all aspects "I wish id known"

So, I now make sure to tell all new inquires the full extent of what we do, but always make sure this is done without stepping on anyones toes


So Doddy, id suggest at the first point of interest a client shows in electric bass, you mention the DB side of your service, or include some wording or picture in an email or letterhead, that subtly informs them

That "wish Id known" comment has made me realize that quite a lot of business gets lost due to clients not knowing what the extent of what we cover

You may however not wish to provide every service to every client for various reasons

Edited December 11, 2010 by lojo

[Doddy]

[quote name='lojo' post='1054925' date='Dec 11 2010, 01:06 PM']So Doddy, id suggest at the first point of interest a client shows in electric bass, you mention the DB side of your service, or include some wording or picture in an email or letterhead, that subtly informs them[/quote]

All my information-cards,website etc,-mention that I play both. In fact,the vast majority of people I work for are aware that I can double. It's just that there are some people who you meet on,say,a jazz gig,who will only ever book you as an upright player,as they have never seen you play electric,and vice versa,and it may not come up in conversation. It's the same way as some people can view you as a rock player or a jazzer or whatever,when that is only a small part of what you do.

[icastle]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1054936' date='Dec 11 2010, 01:25 PM']All my information-cards,website etc,-mention that I play both. In fact,the vast majority of people I work for are aware that I can double. It's just that there are some people who you meet on,say,a jazz gig,who will only ever book you as an upright player,as they have never seen you play electric,and vice versa,and it may not come up in conversation. It's the same way as some people can view you as a rock player or a jazzer or whatever,when that is only a small part of what you do.[/quote]

Yep.
That's a pretty universal problem.
French musician Sacha Distel was famous for his singing but many people are unaware that he was a fantastic guitarist!

[Bilbo]

I always take the Wal when I do a double bass gig because I am still not 100% confident in my staminaso this is not a problem for me. I also don't consider myself to be anyone's first call guy so I tend to be put forward by players that know me as an electric player who has recently picked up the big fella.

[lowdown]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1054688' date='Dec 11 2010, 09:07 AM']How many people on here regularly get hired to play both electric and upright bass?
Have you found that playing both has increased your workload?[/quote]


It did at one time, but the problem these days in shows at least, is fixers/MD's not wanting to [or budget permitting] pay doubling rates [assuming its a union contract] So other than shows if the bulk of your work is being done on Electric or vice versa you tend to get pigeon holed.
[So and so is an electric player/so and so is an Upright player - not so and so is a Bassist ]

But in theory it should increase your workload.


Garry

[EdwardHimself]

I played the double bass for a bit. I might take it up again one day but one thing is for sure, I'm probably never going to see any "work" out of either lol.

[quote name='BurritoBass' post='1054720' date='Dec 11 2010, 09:50 AM']My current band has me doing both & the first 3 months of 2011 didn't see me touch a bass guitar but for no real reason since then I've only managed one gig on the upright since.[/quote]

Errr

[lowdown]

[quote name='EdwardHimself' post='1055971' date='Dec 12 2010, 01:00 PM']Errr [/quote]

That got me all twisted and sweaty - but i think he meant 2010..



Garry

[Faithless]

Ah, so that's what it means..

Well, while I understand the 'bussiness', there's always an other side of it - musical one, and while I risk to open a can of worms..

I heard a few famous players saying, that they're [i]against [/i]this kind of thing, because, according to 'em, developing a voice on the instrument takes a lifetime, and you can't just do it on few different instruments (in this case it's electric and double bass..)

Even more, there were a few comparisons of famous 'doublers', like J Pattituci and Christian McBride. Both of them double, but John (according to them) is primarily an electric bassist, while Christian is famous for double bass..

There were varies thoughts on them, like John P doesn't have that strong voice on double, while Christian doesn't have it on electric (and I can agree pretty much to this, as I've heard him live, and I couldnt heard past Jaco 'thing' on his fretless Pensa..)

I probably wouldn't have asked this, but what got my attention, was people (whom I take as primarily electric bassists) saying that they do jazz gigs on double basses.. Now, a in jazz gig, to me, [i]voice[/i] is one of the 'leading' things, so..

Do feel like having a strong voice on both instruments?


that's just some food for thought,
take it easy
Faith

[mcgraham]

Nice post Faithless - have to agree to some extent, I've been struggling with this of late. I've reached a stage in my musical development where splitting my time between guitar and bass is meaning I am feeling somewhat dissatisfied with my progress on both, and I need to refocus my energies on one instrument (the bass - no question) to continue the development of my musical 'voice'.

There's certainly no reason not to pick up other instruments, (that's why I picked up guitar), but to reap maximum rewards I'm finding I can't split my time between different instruments.

[Doddy]

Good post Faith.

I think it is usually the case that a player is stronger on one instrument than the other,because it is difficult to keep up
your chops on both.
With regards to players like Patitucci and McBride-I think that Christian McBride is one of,if not the,the best Upright players around. He's a
great electric player,but not to the same level as he is on Upright. I think that John Patitucci however, is one of very few players around
who is equally adept and has his own voice on both instruments.

Personally,I approach the Upright differently than the Electric in both my grooving and soloing.There are certain similarities,but the approach
is different. The reason I play Upright on Jazz gigs,especially straight ahead ones,is because there is a certain sound and articulation that
you can't get on an electric bass.When people say that the Upright 'swings' more than the electric (a stupid statement,but I've heard it),I
believe that they are referring more to the envelope of the note,which is unique to the Upright.

[Faithless]

That's something similar to my situation, though it was not a guitar, it was EUB..

I shifted it after 8 months, just because I don't have enough time to play it, and I'm far from having a decent voice on electric so I had to choose..

Still, I thought, I would go 'back' to EUB a few years later, but I doubt if I would sit on it that much, nevermind taking a jazz gig on it..

Edited December 12, 2010 by Faithless

[endorka]

[quote name='Faithless' post='1056524' date='Dec 12 2010, 08:49 PM']I heard a few famous players saying, that they're [i]against [/i]this kind of thing, because, according to 'em, developing a voice on the instrument takes a lifetime, and you can't just do it on few different instruments (in this case it's electric and double bass..)[/quote]

It is of course hard to be your own judge, but I think I've managed to develop a voice on both instruments. I do find that my ability to express that voice varies, the main factor being how much I am playing a particular instrument at a given time. For the last few months I was heavily focussed on the bass guitar, and developed technique and musically quite substantially; however, my fluency & intonation on the double bass took a hit. A few days double bass practice has made a big difference, I'm hoping that after a week I'll be back up to speed.

Other times it is the context that throws me off; I usually play jazz gigs on double bass, but had to play a couple on bass guitar recently due to the terrible weather, and I found the experience slightly odd.

In truth, my main concern is not doubling of instruments, which I find a reasonable proposition, but doubling (or more!) of styles. I love classical music, jazz, rock, sould, pop, reggae, funk, latin, you name it. I was at a folk session today and it was great. But you could easily spend a lifetime dedicated to just one of these styles! How to be able to play them all to the level the deserve is a continuing puzzle.

Jennifer

[icastle]

[quote name='endorka' post='1056885' date='Dec 13 2010, 02:10 AM']In truth, my main concern is not doubling of instruments, which I find a reasonable proposition, but doubling (or more!) of styles. I love classical music, jazz, rock, sould, pop, reggae, funk, latin, you name it. I was at a folk session today and it was great. But you could easily spend a lifetime dedicated to just one of these styles! How to be able to play them all to the level the deserve is a continuing puzzle.[/quote]

Totally with you on that one!

I guess I break down to three distinct levels:
1) I have particular musical 'likes' and those are what people assess my capabilities on. This is the sort of stuff that I listen to because I enjoy it.

2) I have 'this does nothing for me' musical styles that I really have to work hard at to hit a level where I'm comfortable that other people are happy that I'm 'delivering the goods'. This would be the sort of stuff that drones on in the background and doesn't catch my attention or interest.

3) I also have a few 'not only does this do nothing for me but I really detest this' type styles. that's the sort of stuff that'd make me turn the radio off.
Funnily enough, after 25 years or so of saying "no thanks", I don't get offered those jobs any more so I don't worry about them!

Yep - I've carved myself a little 'niche' but it's a fairly comfortable one with an odd s t r e t c h y bit thrown in from time to time to keep me on my toes...

[Faithless]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1056564' date='Dec 12 2010, 11:11 PM']Good post Faith.

I think it is usually the case that a player is stronger on one instrument than the other,because it is difficult to keep up
your chops on both.
With regards to players like Patitucci and McBride-I think that Christian McBride is one of,if not the,the best Upright players around. He's a
great electric player,but not to the same level as he is on Upright. I think that John Patitucci however, is one of very few players around
who is equally adept and has his own voice on both instruments.[/quote]

What I'm trying to say about McBride is that he may play that electric well enough, but, to me, if someone put a tape on of him playing it, I doubt if anyone could recognise it - "oh that's McBride and no one else!", unlike other bunch of electric bass players I know..

I can't say the same thing about Johnny P, because I haven't listened enough to his upright playing, but the person who did state that he doesn't have as strong voice on double as on electric was Janek.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Faithless' post='1057574' date='Dec 13 2010, 05:57 PM']What I'm trying to say about McBride is that he may play that electric well enough, but, to me, if someone put a tape on of him playing it, I doubt if anyone could recognise it - "oh that's McBride and no one else!", unlike other bunch of electric bass players I know..

I can't say the same thing about Johnny P, because I haven't listened enough to his upright playing, but the person who did state that he doesn't have as strong voice on double as on electric was Janek.[/quote]

I agree with you about McBrides electric playing.It's not as unique as his upright playing.
I heard Janek say that about Patitucci,bit that's somewhere where we disagree slightly. I really do think that Patitucci has a strong voice on the Upright,just as much as on the Electric. There aren't many players who,I think,are able to do that.

[mcgraham]

With regard to voice, I think that even if you have a very strong musical voice in your head (e.g. what you hear or wish to play in response to hearing a piece of music, and how you would interpret that music), it undoubtedly requires a technique that matches the complexity of your voice, as well as psychological comfort and confidence on a given instrument to be able to execute those ideas fluidly, without hindrance, and without any concern as to whether you can play something or not. To reach these sorts of levels of skill and to achieve it over multiple genres on one instrument takes a lot of time, but to achieve it on 2+ instruments regardless of their similarities (bass, guitar; electric bass, upright bass) is a mammoth task.

[endorka]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='1058192' date='Dec 14 2010, 08:56 AM']To reach these sorts of levels of skill and to achieve it over multiple genres on one instrument takes a lot of time, but to achieve it on 2+ instruments regardless of their similarities (bass, guitar; electric bass, upright bass) is a mammoth task.[/quote]

Yup. I'm starting to find that one way to realistically manage this is to focus extensively on the one or two genres/instruments that are a priority at a given time. While I am doing this the others will tend to slip, but it is possible to pick them up again at another time. Usually it takes a bit of work to get back up to speed again on these neglected areas, but on the upside there is often cross pollination from the other genres that gives a new & improved perspective on them.

Jennifer

[JimmySims]

Playing both double and regular has got me some extra work, but more than that has been playing keyboards too; being able to offer decent bass synth sounds (I use a Korg MS2000B) has been invaluable.

Also, if no-ones mentioned it already, being able to offer backing vocals has got me in places infront of others too.

Jimmy Sims