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[Phil Mann]

Thanks for looking.

Edited April 9, 2011 by Phil Mann

[Doddy]

Everyone on here knows my opinion on TAB. I don't like it,and would rather have books or whatever without it.

However,I have heard that the sale of books is about 40% greater if they include Tab.
So,while I would rather not have it from a musical and educational viewpoint,it would benefit sales.

Your call really.

Paul

Edited for bad spelling.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Doddy

[Truckstop]

I think that if you are educating actual students in the actual art of actual bassplaying, tab should not be used at all. Tab is (in the vast majority of cases) for people that never bothered/had the opportunity/felt the need to learn to read 'proper' music. If I was a student, I'd be annoyed if my lecturer thought it ok to use tab.

Truckstop

[icastle]

Think you need to think about what the target audience for the book is.

If you're aiming it to sell to the music 'purists' or to the educational/student market then you probably could do without it.
If you're aiming at the general 'man in a band' type market then you'd be commiting commercial suicide by not putting it in!

Personally I'm not a great fan of tab, but provided the book was a balance between tab and notation I'd be happy to dip into the parts that I wanted to know about...

[Bloodaxe]

I'm not anti-tab [i]per se[/i], but acknowledge its limitations - handy as a 'Get Out Of Jail' card, but that's about it.

Doddy's 40% observation is interesting though... why not have approx 40% of the book with tab and the remainder notation? Maybe tab part of each chapter, which ought to give those reliant on tab enough of a lead-in & maybe encourage them to get to grips with notation in order to get the best out of the book (especially if some of the tabbed passages contain notes of varying duration that are only shown as such in the dots).

Pete.

[skej21]

I've never understood why people who write bass books cannot just split tab and notation into two sections.

Normally, the book has just notation, or it has notation with tab situated directly beneath, giving people (usually bass students ) the temptation to look at the tab when they start to struggle.

I wonder if one day someone will write a book where they just, essentially, have two books in one.
Part One - Your music/book written all in standard notation.
Part Two - Your music/book written entirely in tab.
This would allow people to cross-reference (like looking up the answers in a maths book at the back) to see if they are playing the right thing and would allow each individual to play along with either tab/notation depending on what they prefer. It would also remove the problem of having tab and notation right next to each other for people (i.e. teachers/instructors) who don't want tab to be present when using the material with students. Just an idea though, don't know how practical it would ACTUALLY turn out to be

Edited December 11, 2010 by skej21

[icastle]

[quote name='skej21' post='1055215' date='Dec 11 2010, 06:09 PM']I've never understood why people who write bass books cannot just split tab and notation into two sections.[/quote]

How about fitting two books into one?
Hold the book one way and you have the notation version.
Flip it over so the reverse cover becomes the front cover and you have the tab version?

[skej21]

[quote name='icastle' post='1055248' date='Dec 11 2010, 06:41 PM']How about fitting two books into one?
Hold the book one way and you have the notation version.
Flip it over so the reverse cover becomes the front cover and you have the tab version?[/quote]

Either way. When I said fitting two books into one, i meant having one book, but split so that you have (for example);
Chapter One - Notated Examples
Chapter Two - Tab Examples
But both sections containing the same music.

But it has to be said, the flipping over idea is genius! BassChatters are a creative bunch, aren't we?

Edited December 11, 2010 by skej21

[Ajrt]

[quote name='skej21' post='1055215' date='Dec 11 2010, 06:09 PM']Normally, the book has just notation, or it has notation with tab situated directly beneath, giving people (usually bass students ) the temptation to look at the tab when they start to struggle.[/quote]
I'm guilty

[icastle]

[quote name='skej21' post='1055255' date='Dec 11 2010, 06:45 PM']But it has to be said, the flipping over idea is genius! BassChatters are a creative bunch, aren't we? [/quote]

Damn - that makes the book smarter than me... I [b]hate[/b] it when that happens

[Balcro]

I don't see any reason to exclude tab, I've found it very useful in learning lines.

Perhaps your need will depend on the target audience. As a bass player who came to bass guitar, late in life, it's invaluable.
Apart from "guitars" do any other instruments use TAB?

I started to learn piano music when I was 6 and worked my way up to Grade 7, but jumping to "guitar" with lines way off the stave was a shock to the eye and the brain. TAB would certainly ease the transition for those like me who have come to bass/guitar from other non-guitar-like instruments.

When I'm playing along to tracks and checking out the bass music/tab book, TAB just provides the bare notes. Once I've got the bare notes I move onto fingering. When I feel more comfortable with the basic line, I refer back to the notation for the feel/expression.

Balcro.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Balcro

[Noisyjon]

Phil, If I were you I'd include the Tab. Why limit any sales potential!

Cheers,
Jon

[skej21]

[quote name='Balcro' post='1055320' date='Dec 11 2010, 07:47 PM']I don't see any reason to exclude tab, I've found it very useful in learning lines.

Perhaps your need will depend on the target audience. As a bass player who came to bass guitar, late in life, it's invaluable.
Apart from "guitars" do any other instruments use TAB?

I started to learn piano music when I was 6 and worked my way up to Grade 7, but jumping to "guitar" with lines way off the stave was a shock to the eye and the brain. TAB would certainly ease the transition for those like me who have come to bass/guitar from other non-guitar-like instruments.

When I'm playing along to tracks and checking out the bass music/tab book, TAB just provides the bare notes. Once I've got the bare notes I move onto fingering. When I feel more comfortable with the basic line, I refer back to the notation for the feel/expression.

Balcro.[/quote]

Yup, piano too (example) - [url="http://www.tabnabber.com/view_Tab.asp?song=Journey-Dont_Stop_Believing_2-23-2007_3-06-36_PM.txt&tabID=1032&nick=mikechester&sArtist=Journey&sName=Don%27t+Stop+Believing"]http://www.tabnabber.com/view_Tab.asp?song...+Stop+Believing[/url]

Drummers use tab too. I don't think anyone on here is saying that tab should be completely excluded from bass books. We just think that there should be a way to use the book so that you can remove the tab and/or notation depending on the way you need to use the book at the time.

I'm still thinking that icastle's idea of a book that you can flip upside to read the one you want is pure genius!

[Hamster]

I really like notation and tab side-by-side as my reading if very very rusty and the tab helps me to re-learn notation. It's also great if I'm asked to learn something fast and my ears let me down.

[Doddy]

That's the first time that I've heard of tab for piano,and that makes no sense to me whatsoever. I've never seen drummers use Tab either.

[skej21]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1055355' date='Dec 11 2010, 08:13 PM']That's the first time that I've heard of tab for piano,and that makes no sense to me whatsoever. I've never seen drummers use Tab either.[/quote]

I must admit, I think it's dreadful and can't see how it would be useful or helpful to anyone. Drum tab is just as bad. As a secondary music teacher, I battle with this all the time and it annoys me beyond belief.

Luckily though, we use a resource which is fantastic for getting pupils to learn music without using awful (and nearly always incorrect) forms of tab.

It shows live musicians and chords, all playing the song. The technique is questionable in some of the videos, but that is a lot easier to correct than trying to stop pupils from relying on tab

[url="http://www.showmehowtoplay.com/multiplayer.html"]http://www.showmehowtoplay.com/multiplayer.html[/url]

Edited December 11, 2010 by skej21

[CraigPlaysBass]

I'm one of those students who has the books with the notation and tab underneath, it is almost impossible I think to not look at the tab when it is just there. However, every other bass player my age that I know relies on tab

I personally think that the best thing to do would be to separate the two parts out like was mentioned above, but only if economically viable. Otherwise you would be defeating the object of having the tab in there to start with, to reach this wider market and get more sales. Otherwise the 'traditional' line of tab under each line of notation may be the best option...

Oh and I'd love to 'trial' your book like



Craig




Edit for spelling.

Edited December 11, 2010 by CraigPlaysBass

[paul_5]

As a degree lecturer I've often had to question whether I include TAB in my handouts or not. In these days of 'inclusivity' TAB often wins out as it ensures 'quick results' which, to be honest, is what students (and management) like to see. Students who can see that they are progressing (i.e. last week I couldn't play this, and now I can) are the ones who 'stay the course' because they don't get disheartened at an apparent lack of progress. That said, as educators our job isn't just to keep 'bums on seats' and teach students to simply pass the course; we SHOULD be preparing musicians for a career in industry - and that doesn't include TAB (or didn't the last time I depped for anyone). Why not try to wean students off TAB? You could print the first couple of pages fully tabbed, then just the stuff past middle 'C' / double stops etc... then as the book progresses, move into more established forms of notating position (sul A etc...)? Just a thought.

[knifeyspoony]

Hey Phil,

I see the dilemma as I understand how frustrating it is trying to ignore the tab when it is there and you know your reading is more than good enough to cope but still you get diverted to the tab, however it simply depends on how much of the book's focus is actually on reading. If you feel the reading is an essential part of mastering the skill you are teaching then maybe the tab should be excluded, however I expect it is more informative on facilitating the target user with improvising and walking basslines, in which case once they have learned the content the reading aspect becomes almost negligible (just guessing). So... maybe include the tab?

Also as Jon said, why limit your sales? The kind of person who wants tab is not going to pick up the book and go, 'oh no tab, guess I'll just learn to read for the sake of this' (even though they should but the majority of people won't). However someone who prefers to read standard notation will have no objection to the tab being there... if they are desperate they could just tip-ex it out, and the kind person that refuses to buy the book or dismisses it because of the tab, well there aren't many of them and being that fickle is just silly.

Just my two cents,

Adam

[EdwardHimself]

Maybe you could have 2 different editions, one with tab and the other with proper music notation and then sell the different ones according to the market. Ok maybe it's a stupid idea. But that's what they do with science and engineering books in order to cater for the American market who are unwilling to give up on their precious "English" units (which we in England call US customary units, go figure...)

Edited December 11, 2010 by EdwardHimself

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='skej21' post='1055215' date='Dec 11 2010, 06:09 PM']I've never understood why people who write bass books cannot just split tab and notation into two sections.

Normally, the book has just notation, or it has notation with tab situated directly beneath, giving people (usually bass students ) the temptation to look at the tab when they start to struggle.

I wonder if one day someone will write a book where they just, essentially, have two books in one.
Part One - Your music/book written all in standard notation.
Part Two - Your music/book written entirely in tab.
This would allow people to cross-reference (like looking up the answers in a maths book at the back) to see if they are playing the right thing and would allow each individual to play along with either tab/notation depending on what they prefer. It would also remove the problem of having tab and notation right next to each other for people (i.e. teachers/instructors) who don't want tab to be present when using the material with students. Just an idea though, don't know how practical it would ACTUALLY turn out to be [/quote]

Exactly what I was going to write...

I think you'll limit your market without the tab.

But many of us would be better readers if the tab wasn't just below the notation in most books, maybe the tab could be a pull out section or printable via an internet link or on the CD if the book already has one.

[Mike]

Great discussions here. I would always prefer not to see tab, and if I'm frank, am sometimes put off where I see it. I see the benefits for certain players but from where I am, I would tend to avoid books with tab.

[sdgrsr400]

I've worked through a few Hal Leonard tutor books and their approach is typically to use notation+tab for introducing each new idea, and as the ideas are developed the tab is gradually omitted. This allows every type of student to get started on each topic, but gives them an incentive to master notation. However, tab can be beneficial for clarifying more technical aspects of technique like use of open strings, pull-ons etc. For your application, about chordal harmony, the notational aspect would be absolutely central I would have thought - a purely tab approach would just be an unintelligible and arbitrary collection of various finger patterns.

What I personally dislike most are songbooks which have combined notation, because this almost invariably introduces awkward page turns: most songs would fit on a couple of facing pages without page turns in [u]either[/u] notation or tab, but combine them and it's a mess.

Edited December 12, 2010 by sdgrsr400

[LukeFRC]

I like the idea of the book as planned but somehow host the tab online so it can be downloaded.
you may want to explain why you've done it that way too somewhere.

obviously you wont want to do this if giving away the tab lets people use your work without paying you.

[waynepunkdude]

Tab is just as acceptable a way of reading music as reading music, I can't see an argument against it.