Tips on improvisation

[WishICouldWalk]

I'm looking for advice on improvising. My brother plays saxophone and if we're listening to a piece of music he can play a phrase immediately after hearing it (within reason) whereas I don't have a clue! I realise the physical limitations of the bass and saxophone are quite different and he's been playing 20 years whereas I've been playing 5 but how do you get to the point where you can play what you hear? Is it a question of patience and after working away long enough, it just starts to happen or are there specific exercises that people have found have made a real difference in ability to improvise? If someone has reached this sort of level on the bass, could you think back and see if you can remember practice approaches that have made a difference.

Thanks in advance.

[Bilbo]

You need to work on a vocabulary of scales:

Major, minor, melodic minor, diminished, augmented and chromatic scales. You'll also need to look at all of the modes for each scale (your brother will help but come back to me via PM if he can't/won't). And, of course, there are the pentatonic scales (which are variations on the above) and the blues scale.

You should look at transcribing other people's solos (NOT bass solos because they are relatively clumpy compared to horns/guitars - watch for the responses to THAT comment!) or, if you can't transcribe, just learn them by rote at the speed at which they are played by the original soloist. Start with 'easier' solos; more melodic etc rather than Joe Lovano stuff which is all but impossible to execute on the bass. Trombone solos, Baristone Sax solos etc are a good place to start (Gerry Mulligan's 'Song For Strayhorn' was my first transcription).

Gradually, over a period of months and years, your ears will develop and you will 'hear' things more readily. There is no quick fix here. Anyone who tells you any different is lying.

Of course, you can practice simply playing along with the radio and try to catch licks and lines. The more you do it, the more you will improve. But I do advocate the more academic approach outlined above as it is a tried and tested route to learning.

[WishICouldWalk]

Thanks for the response. In terms of the scales, I know enough to know how to play them - can you suggest the best way to contextualise them? I do attempt transcribing solos - would you say that the approach should be to look for scale fragments within the solos and try to work out what chords they're being played over and then to play different patterns of the scale over the chord that chord(s)? Unfortunately I don't find it too easy to identify the harmony. I did think that maybe what I should do is loop progressions like 2-5-1 or whatever and sing over them and transcribe my own melodies but what I'm realising is that at my level, it's really difficult to even sing the phrase in my mind.

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='120616' date='Jan 15 2008, 09:32 AM']You need to work on a vocabulary of scales:

Major, minor, melodic minor, diminished, augmented and chromatic scales. You'll also need to look at all of the modes for each scale (your brother will help but come back to me via PM if he can't/won't). And, of course, there are the pentatonic scales (which are variations on the above) and the blues scale.

You should look at transcribing other people's solos (NOT bass solos because they are relatively clumpy compared to horns/guitars - watch for the responses to THAT comment!) or, if you can't transcribe, just learn them by rote at the speed at which they are played by the original soloist. Start with 'easier' solos; more melodic etc rather than Joe Lovano stuff which is all but impossible to execute on the bass. Trombone solos, Baristone Sax solos etc are a good place to start (Gerry Mulligan's 'Song For Strayhorn' was my first transcription).

Gradually, over a period of months and years, your ears will develop and you will 'hear' things more readily. There is no quick fix here. Anyone who tells you any different is lying.

Of course, you can practice simply playing along with the radio and try to catch licks and lines. The more you do it, the more you will improve. But I do advocate the more academic approach outlined above as it is a tried and tested route to learning.[/quote]

Edited January 15, 2008 by WishICouldWalk

[Bilbo]

It is not 'difficult; - you just did it with a computer keyboard. You formulate an idea and put it into a language the is univerally accepted (in this case, English) and, using a set of rules (sentence construction, spelling etc), communicated that idea to the rest of us. THat's improvisation.

Music is no different.

If you take your II-V-I in C loop, you can play a straight C major scale over the whole thing. Put your loop on and play a root note on each chord change (like a basic bass line - one note per bar). Then try a third (F - B - E), now a fifth (A - D - G) and a seventh (C - F - . Listen to what each note sounds like in this context. Now do the chord scales one note per beat (DFAC - GBDA - CEGB). Now try it on the off beats. Now try changing the rhythms, or the order of the notes, play some of them twice, three times whatever. You are now improvising. By the time you get inot blues notes and chromatic scales, you will be on a roll.

Improvising rhythmically with just one note is also a good way to gain insight.

If you try all of the above it will suck.

But, if you keep doing this, you will gradually find things that you think sound good and you will use and things you don't like that you won't. That is called building a vocabulary and is why John Coltrane is not Sonny Rollins.

Scale fragments are brilliant for getting ideas going so take some lick you like off records (stick to ones you know the chords for at the moment) and transpose them inot C and work them against you loop. Its a voyage of exploration and one hell of a journey.

Remember - there are no such things as wrong notes, just poor choices. Make sure your choices are informed and you will make music. At this stage, LOUD, CONFIDENT AND WRONG is GRRRREAT!

Edited January 15, 2008 by bilbo230763

[Sibob]

Within regards to scales, i'm working on an idea that i got from Adam Nitti which is something along the lines of:
"if you can't sing all the different scale shapes, you don't know them well enough"

It's already helped any improvisation i do as i have more of an idea what will work based on the sound of everything as well as the actual theory.

Also, Miles Davies said it best when with "...there are no wrong notes, just opportunities"

Si

Edited January 15, 2008 by Sibob

[WishICouldWalk]

Thanks for your ideas. Another thing while we're on this subject, if I take a simple melody that is based on a major scale (e.g. Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - no, I'm not taking the piss!), I can more or less play it straight off. I really struggle when we're going outside of an octave range. Can anyone suggest practice approaches for hitting the right notes over relatively large intervals?

Cheers.

[Bilbo]

Two octave scales in all keys/modes and then chord tones for two octave (eg C major ascending = CEGBDFAC) - its tedious and repetitive but there's no other way....

[Legion]

[quote name='WishICouldWalk' post='120723' date='Jan 15 2008, 12:13 PM']Thanks for your ideas. Another thing while we're on this subject, if I take a simple melody that is based on a major scale (e.g. Twinkle Twinkle Little Star - no, I'm not taking the piss!), I can more or less play it straight off. I really struggle when we're going outside of an octave range. Can anyone suggest practice approaches for hitting the right notes over relatively large intervals?

Cheers.[/quote]

I'm far from qualified to comment on anything except my own limited experiences but I would like to ask; how did you learn the scales that you do know?

I found that there were 2 ways for me to approach scales. One was on a sort of visual level as a "pattern" which is very fast and easy, but hugely restrictive as once I start to move higher up or throw open strings in I get totally lost.

The other is to approach them from a musical theory angle, where I essentially reconstruct a scale by playing the notes anywhere I want rather than in the exact "shape" that I was used to. It seems better to understand that scales are essentially about the relationship bewteen the notes, rather than the notes themselves. Creating a map of patterns is a hard habit to break - but I think its worth spending time practicing ( and revisiting ) your foundations.

I'm still working on this of course hope that helps with a different perspective

Jas

[Bilbo]

Play scales across the neck and then play the same scale up the neck as well (i.e. on one string). That way you teach your self a shape (perfectly useful) but don't lose sight of the SOUND of the scale (which is what matters).

[Sibob]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='120736' date='Jan 15 2008, 12:38 PM']....but don't lose sight of the SOUND of the scale (which is what matters).[/quote]

Which refers back to my point (Adam Nitti's point!?) of being able to sing the various different scales as well as play them, makes you more aware of the subtle changes in sound between closely related scales such as Lydian and Mixolydian modes.

Oh yeah, learn your modes if you haven't done so already, it opens up a lot of ideas and possibilities

Si

[WishICouldWalk]

I tend to think of the shapes. I think shapes are good for licks, but I agree, they are restrictive. My reasoning is this - I've been toying with the idea of hiring an upright because I love swing jazz and I love the sound of the upright bass. In anticipation of this, I've been learning a lot of lines using open strings and practicing playing over changes. I believe that because I've been forced to throw out the shapes it's making my playing a bit more intuitive - this is still the case moving back up the neck. Try it for a couple of weeks, see whether you agree? It only works for me when I play walking lines though, it doesn't seem to help for soloing.

[quote name='Legion' post='120734' date='Jan 15 2008, 12:34 PM']I'm far from qualified to comment on anything except my own limited experiences but I would like to ask; how did you learn the scales that you do know?

I found that there were 2 ways for me to approach scales. One was on a sort of visual level as a "pattern" which is very fast and easy, but hugely restrictive as once I start to move higher up or throw open strings in I get totally lost.

The other is to approach them from a musical theory angle, where I essentially reconstruct a scale by playing the notes anywhere I want rather than in the exact "shape" that I was used to. It seems better to understand that scales are essentially about the relationship bewteen the notes, rather than the notes themselves. Creating a map of patterns is a hard habit to break - but I think its worth spending time practicing ( and revisiting ) your foundations.

I'm still working on this of course hope that helps with a different perspective

Jas[/quote]

[WishICouldWalk]

I think Nitti is a switched on guy. I don't like the sweep arpeggio stuff but when he funks out, and solos fingerstyle, he's a monster. The Yin Yang clip on youtube is great.

[quote name='Sibob' post='120807' date='Jan 15 2008, 02:09 PM']Which refers back to my point (Adam Nitti's point!?) of being able to sing the various different scales as well as play them, makes you more aware of the subtle changes in sound between closely related scales such as Lydian and Mixolydian modes.

Oh yeah, learn your modes if you haven't done so already, it opens up a lot of ideas and possibilities

Si[/quote]

[urb]

One thing I'll add is that 'improvising' doesn't just have to be in jazz - I've improvised for years and years and while I second all of the advice above you can improvise in any style - it shouldn't just be about learning a 'code' that takes years and years to reach a decent level it's also about knowing your instrument well but more importantly communicating - and hearing what other musicians are doing - improvising with highly skilled musicians is one of the greatest joys of playing music.

Anyway it's all just a matter of practice and experience - so I best let you get on with it!

M

[The Funk]

[quote name='urb' post='121957' date='Jan 17 2008, 09:16 AM']communicating - and hearing what other musicians are doing[/quote]

Amen!

[bassjamm]

Haven't read through all of the above but just wanted to put in a few words...

Don't think it's been said, if it has, my apologies...but i've found i can play what i hear far more easily if i can sing the lick. Ok, i'm no singer, but it's amazing how quickly you can pick up stuff if you can hear it and then sing it, because you're brain is having to tell your voice the intervals, rather than you playing the first note and then trying out different intervals untill you get it. I've found this to be incredibly helpful, i use it when learning new bass lines, working out solos, even when working out the lines that are in my head. It also helps if you practice singing the lines you're playing because this gets your voice used to singing the notes and intervals.

Don't get my wrong...i'm not suggesting you become some kind of magical singing bassist, but being able to pitch the notes with your voice will strengthen your ears ability to hear the lines...and in turn play them...

Hope that helps...and sorry if it's already been suggested!

[mcgraham]

So hard to even attempt to sum up what helps with improvisation, at least in my experience.

1) Practice phrases - (I used the term phrases as opposed to scales because they are also just collections of notes at the end of the day) as was previously said, don't lose sight of the true purpose which is to learn the distinctness of each scale, particularly how one note sounds in relation to another i.e. the distinctive sound of each interval in different contexts. And that extends to phrases too.

2) Apply those scales - do something musical with them, noodle, if you've 'got inside' the sound of a scale or set of intervals (which is really all a scale is) you may even recognise a song that has that sound that you could play along to, transcribe, reharmonise, do a solo too. Pull the tools out of your tool belt.

Lesser discussed point...

3) Practice technique - if you don't have the chops to pull off a lick, there's very little chance you'll even be able to find the right notes let alone play them. 1/4 notes, 8ths, 16ths, triplets, arpeggios, 1,2,3,4+ notes per string, skipping string, effective muting, dynamics etc etc. I have certain exercises I use (and add to) such that my chops don't limit what I hear either in my head or from my ears. Practice them daily to maintain your technique.

And at the end of the day, set goals, and manageable ones at that.

(IMO)

Mark

[paul, the]

So (to anyone) is there a serious book with a lovely learning curve?

I was thinking of just inquiring about notation but I find it difficult to know the best position to play a note with notation.

[quote name='mcgraham' post='122366' date='Jan 17 2008, 06:39 PM']And at the end of the day, set goals, and manageable ones at that.

(IMO)

Mark[/quote]

[WishICouldWalk]

Can you give a couple of examples of exercises you use to keep your chops in order?

[quote name='mcgraham' post='122366' date='Jan 17 2008, 06:39 PM']So hard to even attempt to sum up what helps with improvisation, at least in my experience.

1) Practice phrases - (I used the term phrases as opposed to scales because they are also just collections of notes at the end of the day) as was previously said, don't lose sight of the true purpose which is to learn the distinctness of each scale, particularly how one note sounds in relation to another i.e. the distinctive sound of each interval in different contexts. And that extends to phrases too.

2) Apply those scales - do something musical with them, noodle, if you've 'got inside' the sound of a scale or set of intervals (which is really all a scale is) you may even recognise a song that has that sound that you could play along to, transcribe, reharmonise, do a solo too. Pull the tools out of your tool belt.

Lesser discussed point...

3) Practice technique - if you don't have the chops to pull off a lick, there's very little chance you'll even be able to find the right notes let alone play them. 1/4 notes, 8ths, 16ths, triplets, arpeggios, 1,2,3,4+ notes per string, skipping string, effective muting, dynamics etc etc. I have certain exercises I use (and add to) such that my chops don't limit what I hear either in my head or from my ears. Practice them daily to maintain your technique.

And at the end of the day, set goals, and manageable ones at that.

(IMO)

Mark[/quote]

[mcgraham]

Personally, I found Hanon (piano pedagogogological exercises (spelling anyone?) as advocated by a certain Mr Janek Gwizdala) to be immensely helpful. Just a couple of exercises are enough from the point of view of string skipping, arpeggios, multiple notes per string to one etc. As was said previously, doing stuff that isn't written/'meant' for bass is great, it'll force your chops to higher level. Plus, it'll expand your ear.

What I do now is identify things that I can't do to the same standard as other things. For instance, doing 7th arpeggios + string skipping, I created an exercise where I play the 1,3,7, then descend to the 5 in the key of C (say) then do the same for the G (one string below), shift up to the D, then A etc etc so effectively cycling through in 5ths although that wasn't the point. I should point out I'm playing the appropriate 7th arpeggio for each one.

Another one I've identified is triplets. I have several techniques I use for triplets T 1 2, 1 2 3, T 2 3 (finger number) that I can do triplets exceedingly fast at (16ths at bout 180?). But 2 fingers isn't quite the same speed (16ths at bout 150?) so I'll be putting together an exercise for that other than scales once I've got through some other more important ones.

So, Hanon, for basics. Run a couple of exercises starting at about 16ths at 60 bpm, and slowly work your way up to 16ths at 200bpm or whatever goal you like.

NOTE: Pay ATTENTION to what your fingers are doing, don't just blindly try and get through the exercises. We're trying to make our technique coherent and consistent. Decide what is most comfortable, in terms of tension, raking vs strict alternation (I opted for raking), angle of fingers relative to top of the bass, hand angled forward or backward, more curved, less curved? These things change as you improve as well, what works at lower speeds often doesn't work at higher speeds. Constantly reassess where you're at and what you're doing as you improve.

If you have any specific technique questions please feel free to message me or ask. I'm not claiming to be the authority on technique, but I don't mind sharing what I've learned from various experiments.

Mark

Edited January 18, 2008 by mcgraham

[Mike]

[quote name='bassjamm' post='122238' date='Jan 17 2008, 03:29 PM']Haven't read through all of the above but just wanted to put in a few words...

Don't think it's been said, if it has, my apologies...but i've found i can play what i hear far more easily if i can sing the lick. Ok, i'm no singer, but it's amazing how quickly you can pick up stuff if you can hear it and then sing it, because you're brain is having to tell your voice the intervals, rather than you playing the first note and then trying out different intervals untill you get it. I've found this to be incredibly helpful, i use it when learning new bass lines, working out solos, even when working out the lines that are in my head. It also helps if you practice singing the lines you're playing because this gets your voice used to singing the notes and intervals.

Don't get my wrong...i'm not suggesting you become some kind of magical singing bassist, but being able to pitch the notes with your voice will strengthen your ears ability to hear the lines...and in turn play them...

Hope that helps...and sorry if it's already been suggested![/quote]

Exactly what Richard Bona encourages!

[bassjamm]

[quote name='Mike' post='122683' date='Jan 18 2008, 09:55 AM']Exactly what Richard Bona encourages![/quote]

That's good to hear...maybe all of my mad ramblings have some kind of sense behind them then

[WishICouldWalk]

Richard Bona takes it to a whole 'nother level - singing totally different lines to what he's playing - incredible bloke.

[quote name='Mike' post='122683' date='Jan 18 2008, 09:55 AM']Exactly what Richard Bona encourages![/quote]

[mcgraham]

(Edited that previous message if anyone wanted to read the changes)

Jamie is dead on with regards singing. If you want to transcribe something/play it by ear, singing is a great way to internalise a phrase, even before you can play it. If you treat your voice as a second instrument, and work on it such that you can actually use it the same way you'd use a physical instrument, you'll NEVER be without a means for improvising, transcribing, 'playing' along with others.

Mark

[WishICouldWalk]

Is this the book you mention? [i]Hanon for the Developing Pianist
[/i]
[quote name='mcgraham' post='122631' date='Jan 18 2008, 08:23 AM']Personally, I found Hanon (piano pedagogogological exercises (spelling anyone?) as advocated by a certain Mr Janek Gwizdala) to be immensely helpful. Just a couple of exercises are enough from the point of view of string skipping, arpeggios, multiple notes per string to one etc. As was said previously, doing stuff that isn't written/'meant' for bass is great, it'll force your chops to higher level. Plus, it'll expand your ear.

What I do now is identify things that I can't do to the same standard as other things. For instance, doing 7th arpeggios + string skipping, I created an exercise where I play the 1,3,7, then descend to the 5 in the key of C (say) then do the same for the G (one string below), shift up to the D, then A etc etc so effectively cycling through in 5ths although that wasn't the point. I should point out I'm playing the appropriate 7th arpeggio for each one.

Another one I've identified is triplets. I have several techniques I use for triplets T 1 2, 1 2 3, T 2 3 (finger number) that I can do triplets exceedingly fast at (16ths at bout 180?). But 2 fingers isn't quite the same speed (16ths at bout 150?) so I'll be putting together an exercise for that other than scales once I've got through some other more important ones.

So, Hanon, for basics. Run a couple of exercises starting at about 16ths at 60 bpm, and slowly work your way up to 16ths at 200bpm or whatever goal you like.

NOTE: Pay ATTENTION to what your fingers are doing, don't just blindly try and get through the exercises. We're trying to make our technique coherent and consistent. Decide what is most comfortable, in terms of tension, raking vs strict alternation (I opted for raking), angle of fingers relative to top of the bass, hand angled forward or backward, more curved, less curved? These things change as you improve as well, what works at lower speeds often doesn't work at higher speeds. Constantly reassess where you're at and what you're doing as you improve.

If you have any specific technique questions please feel free to message me or ask. I'm not claiming to be the authority on technique, but I don't mind sharing what I've learned from various experiments.

Mark[/quote]

[mcgraham]

I think that one may be slightly different, the one I know is Hanon: the complete virtuoso pianist. Has 60 exercises in, the first third are really useful, the other two thirds I haven't worked much on, if at all.

I've got a PDF copy if anyone is interested.

Mark