Tips on improvisation

[WishICouldWalk]

Very interested!

[quote name='WishICouldWalk' post='123246' date='Jan 19 2008, 07:24 AM']Is this the book you mention? [i]Hanon for the Developing Pianist
[/i][/quote]

[mcgraham]

PM me your email and I'll email it on. Anyone else who's interested please feel free to do likewise.

Mark

[Bilbo]

There is a jazz Hanon by Leo Alfassy (see amazon - less than £8). Not seen it up close but thought you might like to know...

[WishICouldWalk]

Just bought Jazz Hanon. Don't think it's that great for bassists because it's got a lot of pentatonic runs that move up chromatically - tricky on the piano but not such a challenge on the bass.

What I'm trying to do is take a phrase from a solo I like and then playing the same intervals on each degree of the scale it's based on. Hopefully this will be good for the technique but also be reasonably musical.

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='123746' date='Jan 20 2008, 12:13 PM']There is a jazz Hanon by Leo Alfassy (see amazon - less than £8). Not seen it up close but thought you might like to know...[/quote]

[umph]

i'm sure books don't help you improvise playing more with bands helps you improvise but knowing what would sound good always helps

[mcgraham]

[quote]What I'm trying to do is take a phrase from a solo I like and then playing the same intervals on each degree of the scale it's based on. Hopefully this will be good for the technique but also be reasonably musical.[/quote]

I've never done this so can't comment on its effectiveness (not saying it's bad, just saying I can't comment) Something similar to that happened to me when transcribing choir parts, contemporary gospel rather than traditional choir. It caused me to really hear harmonies easily, and create them, particularly as I was doing them away from an instrument other than my voice (over lunch, train rides etc). I found that one of the multitude of benefits that came of it was that you would find new melodies from the one phrase sung/played intervals higher as a harmony, or just shifted by an interval.

That exercise you mentioned (I imagine) will be good for technique, forcing you to play familiar rhythms and somewhat similar patterns, but hearing a different sound. It'll also be good for recognising harmonies, for enhancing your understanding of phrasing. Good exercise dude! Just remember to apply it!

Mark

P.S. Those who've asked for copies of Hanon, please let us/me know how you've found it and whether you've found it be of any benefit.

[funkle]

I will interject here. I [b]completely disagree [/b]that scales are the way forward for practicing improvisation. I think they are, functionally, a dead end, and moreover listen to someone shredding on them and it just doesn't sound that good.

I am not a full-time musician. I have been playing for about 15 years now, and been interested in jazz for the last 8 years or so. I am not a brilliant improviser, but I am improving.....

Nonetheless, having studied with both Jeff Berlin and Carol Kaye now, I can see the way forward, and my playing has improved a lot since my time with Jeff (within the the last couple of months). (See my review of the Players School of Music for more info....)

Both Carol and Jeff advocate the use of [b]chord tones[/b], not scales, when improvising. Chord tones, and substitutes for those chords, are how most jazz solos are played. Now my understanding of harmony is improving, both aurally and on the written page, I agree with them completely.

I spent years playing + practicing modes. I couldn't find a way to 'apply' them. Perhaps an understanding of their utility will come later.

I'd like to demonstrate how chord tones can improve your solos.

Here's a challenge for you to help improve both your knowledge of the neck and understanding of how 'voice leading' in chord tones between chords works: (for the purists, this is not pure voice leading, where the chord tones nearly always descend, but that's the nearest analogy I can draw here.....)

Take a jazz tune, or any tune for that matter. Starting at the lowest point on the neck, play the all the chord tones of that chord going up the neck. When you change to the next chord, move to the nearest chord tone possible. Do this up and down the neck.

e.g. I - IV - V7 - I

| Cmaj | F Maj | G7 | Cmaj |

try

| E G B C | E F A C | D F G B | C E G B |
|(1st inversion) | (3rd inv) | (2nd inv) | (root position) |

This is moving between inversions of the different chords smoothly. Yes, all the scale tones of C Major are there, but you are functioning within each chord independently. Moreover, because you are treating each chord independently, you can alter them to make it sound different.

e.g.

Want to make it hipper? Try some primary subordinate substitutes:

| C maj E min | F maj | G7 | Emin Cmaj |

Want to really make it hip? Try a tritone sub for G7:

| Cmaj E min | F maj | G7 Db7 | Emin Cmaj |

Now lets go all out!! Try some secondary dominant substitutes for some of the chords:

| Cmaj B7 Emin | C7 F maj | G7 Db7 | Emin G7 Cmaj |

...............

I am only scratching the surface of what functional jazz harmony means, and how it can be used. I'm still working through the harmony book I got from Jeff.........

However this is how people who can really play tell me how it is done. I agree.


Pete

Edited January 30, 2008 by funkle

[Mike]

This is fascinating, Pete. What harmony book did you get from Jeff?

[mcgraham]

Hey Pete

Thanks for your post, it’s always great to hear another viewpoint, particularly when it’s advocated by such established players and teachers as Carol Kaye and Jeff Berlin.

[quote]I will interject here. I completely disagree that scales are the way forward for practicing improvisation. I think they are, functionally, a dead end, and moreover listen to someone shredding on them and it just doesn't sound that good.[/quote]

You’re right, they are not the way forward, rather I would that exclusively practicing scales and particularly if done somewhat mindlessly will not yield much if any musical improvement.

[quote]Both Carol and Jeff advocate the use of chord tones, not scales, when improvising. Chord tones, and substitutes for those chords, are how most jazz solos are played. Now my understanding of harmony is improving, both aurally and on the written page, I agree with them completely.[/quote]

Again, you’re right, chord tones, substitutes and all sundry related with them form the basis of most jazz solos. You need to address chord tones to unlock harmony.

[quote]I spent years playing + practicing modes. I couldn't find a way to 'apply' them. Perhaps an understanding of their utility will come later.[/quote]

Now this is where I think most people fall short with scales. They don’t know a good way to apply them. Learning scales is but a starting point. They see them as set patterns that overlie the neck. Or a one or more scales as their note selection and they switch between the two. I’m not saying this is wrong, but you can certainly derive more from learnt material than that.

To elaborate, once I had scales under my fingers I started breaking them down, comparing intervals from different scales over one another e.g. compare major third with minor third, minor 6th with major 6th, maj7 with min 2nd (over a root), and also combining portions of scales and getting inside the sound of intervals, which ultimately gets you inside the sound of scales made from them, and inside chords and available tensions. This ultimately was and is training my ear to recognise these. This was effectively doing what you say Carol and Jeff advocate, experimenting with and practicing chord tones, tensions, reharmonisation etc.

[quote]I'd like to demonstrate how chord tones can improve your solos.[/quote]

That's a wonderful exercise to teach you walking, help you to know your fingerboard better, and also not get locked into one pattern, but will allow to you recognise what notes are available to you anywhere your may (or may not!) be.

In short, I would agree that scales on their own and taken no further are next to useless musically and the technical benefit will only give the world some more mindless widdlers; I would more or less agree that practicing chord tones and such is a great way forward and unlocks much more than scales would on their own; but I would wholeheartedly disagree with anyone that says scales are a waste of time (not saying you or anyone else said that), they are a wonderful tool whose true benefit merely requires appropriate application.

Mark

DISCLAIMER: I don’t profess to be better than or even equal to Carol or Jeff, and I did not intend to belittle their teaching. My apologies if that was what I put across.

[funkle]

Thanks for your responses gentlemen.

Mike - the book on harmony I received was written by one of the guys running the jazz course at The Players School of Music. It is unpublished; only an 'in-house' book. Written by a guy who I got to know well and saw gig a few times - Matt Bokulic (great piano player). Nonetheless, it has served me very well. The chapter headings include 'voice leading', 'secondary dominants', 'tritone substitutions', 'primary subordinate substitutes', etc as well as basic major scale and chord thoery. I pressured him to publish; Matt tells me they may do so later this year. I may be able to scan for those who are interested at some point, but I'm not in the country at the moment, so......

Mcgraham - didn't mean to make the point so strongly! I just read back what I wrote and it came across more forcefully than I intended. My apologies. I agree with what you write - especially about ear training! I've just found too many people/music courses which emphasised scales/modes and not chords - and I hate to say I'm including some of the local music graduates here - then people are surprised when what they play sounds poor. It took me a long time to find a music course which emphasised chord tones and not scales/modes as the basis for jazz improv. If anyone knows of a similar school/course in the UK I am all ears........as it is I'm going to have to pay to go back to Florida again to study with Jeff!

I should have added a list of other things essential to good improv. I made no emphasis on the importance of listening to the others who you are playing with when improvising, transcribing solos, ear training, adding other chord tensions (2nds, 4ths, 6ths) as your vocabulary develops, the need to play with others regularly, the use of rhythm and s p a c e, not being afraid to play less as opposed to more and that shredding at high speed, while a wonderful self-fulfilling experience, is not always as gratifying for the listener.


Stepping down from the soapbox.......

Pete

Edited January 30, 2008 by funkle

[mcgraham]

[quote]Mcgraham - didn't mean to make the point so strongly! I just read back what I wrote and it came across more forcefully than I intended. My apologies. I agree with what you write - especially about ear training! I've just found too many people/music courses which emphasised scales/modes and not chords - and I hate to say I'm including some of the local music graduates here - then people are surprised when what they play sounds poor. It took me a long time to find a music course which emphasised chord tones and not scales/modes as the basis for jazz improv. If anyone knows of a similar school/course in the UK I am all ears........as it is I'm going to have to pay to go back to Florida again to study with Jeff!

I should have added a list of other things essential to good improv. I made no emphasis on the importance of listening to the others who you are playing with when improvising, transcribing solos, ear training, adding other chord tensions (2nds, 4ths, 6ths) as your vocabulary develops, the need to play with others regularly, the use of rhythm and s p a c e, not being afraid to play less as opposed to more and that shredding at high speed, while a wonderful self-fulfilling experience, is not always as gratifying for the listener.[/quote]

Not a problem bud! I think it's awesome that you've taken on board what your teachers have said and why they've said it, and it's particularly good to get such input posted here.

I myself was contemplating doing a jazz diploma or music course before I got the job I'm in now, however for many reasons I decided against it. For one, I felt that a lot of teachers and tutors, for all their supposed technical prowess and rumoured musical ability, seemed to be passing on bad habits (particularly in technique) and in many of the ways they taught. Standard things like reading, basic rhythm studies (across multiple disciplines) they were decent at, but beyond that there appeared to be, at least as I saw it, a general failing. Judging from Janek's (Gwizdala) posts over on TB he also shares a similar viewpoint regarding British music institutions.

I do have to work harder to put the time in when working, and also less time for groups means less time to experiment in groups, which impedes progress in some ways, but it can be done if you have the drive, focus, a set of goals, and ultimately a passion to play.

Mark

[WishICouldWalk]

Would those less in favour of practicing scale forms suggest an alternative means of developing left and right hand dexterity? That's the only reason I'm doing them. I think to an extent, learning an instrument is a little like training for an athletic event - a shot-putter never lifts weights in competition, but the strength gained from lifting weights help to throw further. In a similar way, if you have the dexterity to play scale forms at a high tempo with good tone, it will make you sound better when your note selection is more deliberate.

Does that sound reasonable?

[Bilbo]

I don't think anyone was ever advocating scales over chord tones as an approach to learning.
I understand the chord tones approach but wonder if that is, of itself, a partial response (i.e. chord tones without scales tones would be pretty shallow). I think the two are symbiotic and can't see how you can understand the concept of a Bmaj7sharp11 chord without an understanding of scales that relate to it. If a chord is made up of the first, third, fifth, seventh etc, surely you need to know what it is the first, third, seventh etc of?

It's a bit chicken and egg to me...

[mcgraham]

[quote]I don't think anyone was ever advocating scales over chord tones as an approach to learning.
I understand the chord tones approach but wonder if that is, of itself, a partial response (i.e. chord tones without scales tones would be pretty shallow). I think the two are symbiotic and can't see how you can understand the concept of a Bmaj7sharp11 chord without an understanding of scales that relate to it. If a chord is made up of the first, third, fifth, seventh etc, surely you need to know what it is the first, third, seventh etc of?

It's a bit chicken and egg to me...[/quote]

100% spot on there, you can't have one without the other. I can't remember who wrote it or even where I read it, but I remember reading a post or article where someone was explaining that scales are defined by what notes you leave [i]out[/i]. And that a scale is a chord is a scale is chord is a... I think Pete, myself and yourself are all coming at the same goal but from different ends i.e. practicing just chord tones or just scales is next to useless, it's learning how they relate to each other and how the intervals (being the individual relative building blocks that make up both) sound and work in relation to other intervals. Without breaking either 'system' down and learning about its inner workings, they're both pretty useless in the long run.

[quote]Would those less in favour of practicing scale forms suggest an alternative means of developing left and right hand dexterity? That's the only reason I'm doing them. I think to an extent, learning an instrument is a little like training for an athletic event - a shot-putter never lifts weights in competition, but the strength gained from lifting weights help to throw further. In a similar way, if you have the dexterity to play scale forms at a high tempo with good tone, it will make you sound better when your note selection is more deliberate.

Does that sound reasonable?[/quote]

For technical ability, scales are alright, I prefer something a bit more musical and less bog standard as an exercise as it will be a) more productive, and set you apart from 'everyone else' as that's what 'everyone else' does. I think we've disclosed a pretty exhaustive list of technical exercises and Hanon should definitely provide some for you.

Remember to apply what you've practiced, make those deliberate note choices and fiddle around with different intervals. Practice is for practice, performance is what you're practicing for. If nothing else have fun when you practice and try new things, don't be afraid to try things that you may think will sound wrong, those are where the BEST note choices are, making things that sound 'wrong' and finding ways to make them sound 'right' is a wonderful thing to do.

Mark

P.S. Again sorry for the length, I love this stuff!

[funkle]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='130663' date='Jan 30 2008, 01:58 PM']I don't think anyone was ever advocating scales over chord tones as an approach to learning.
I understand the chord tones approach but wonder if that is, of itself, a partial response (i.e. chord tones without scales tones would be pretty shallow). I think the two are symbiotic and can't see how you can understand the concept of a Bmaj7sharp11 chord without an understanding of scales that relate to it. If a chord is made up of the first, third, fifth, seventh etc, surely you need to know what it is the first, third, seventh etc of?

It's a bit chicken and egg to me...[/quote]

Thanks for your response; this is a good discussion!

Perhaps I misunderstood some posts; I think some do advocate the playing of scales and modes as an approach to learn how to solo. I have also seen this in many educational materials, which is how I ended up practicing scales for a couple of years......

Chord tones without other tones [i]can[/i] be shallow, although watching Jeff Berlin improvise with [i]only[/i] chord tones was a real education to see in person, but the use of other scale tones, from the way I understand it, often turns out to be the improviser substituting an additional chord, or adding chord tensions that are found in the melody (but may not necessarily be annotated in the chord). The limit to how far you can go with chord subs seems only to be limited by your knowledge of harmony, from what I can see......

Overall, though - I can agree with the 'symbiosis' argument. I'm [i]not[/i] advocating ignoring scales. It is essential to know the theory of how the major scale is constructed, precisely as you point out, to be able to understand how essential chord tones and chord tensions are formed. Nor am I saying that scales/modes are unimportant in music - Egyptian music, Flamenco, Balkan music come to mind, not to mention the modal playing on Kind Of Blue, etc - but I think too much emphasis has been put on playing the whole scale or set of scales, as opposed to focusing on the 'functional workings' of that scale (i.e. chords).

I suspect that academic post-hoc analysis of jazz has provided many with the 'scales/modes are important' argument.....because when you put all the notes on a piece of paper, they may conform to this scale or that one........whereas my understanding is that what the jazz player thinks about, if at all, are the chord tones and the substitutes they are using over a given set of changes. That was how every instructor at the Players School thought, taught, and discussed improvisation, and to my ears, it worked.

NB. I reiterate - if anyone knows of a teacher or school that teaches in the way that Jeff Berlin's one does, but in the UK, please let me know.......

Pete

Edited January 30, 2008 by funkle

[mcgraham]

[quote]The limit to how far you can go with chord subs seems only to be limited by your knowledge of harmony, from what I can see......[/quote]
[quote]I think too much emphasis has been put on playing the whole scale or set of scales, as opposed to focusing on the 'functional workings' of that scale (i.e. chords).[/quote]

I concur!

Mark