Replacement neck - features

[mcgraham]

Alright people, pretty sure I'm going to get a replacement neck for my Geddy, I couldn't decide whether I wanted the sturdiness of a graphite neck or the woodyness of a maple neck so I'm opting for a graphite reinforced maple neck. I'm wanting the same sound, feel and look as the current one just without the pesky shifting, so it'll look dang near identical to a Geddy neck (probably get whoever does it to measure it up and copy it).

HOWEVER, I'm up for some subtle changes as it's (likely) going to be made from scratch.

1) Scale length - I'm contemplating a different scale length, anywhere from 32" to 38". I'm looking for people to chime in on which scale length they prefer and why. I'm thinking something shorter for the ease of reach, but then the benefits of increased tension in a longer scale length cannot be denied, hence the uncertainty. Realistically I'm looking at 34" vs 33" scale, anything more or less would prove to be too much of an undesirable difference.

2) Fingerboard radius - definitely block inlays on the board but the radius is up for debate. I'm thinking flatter in order to achieve/maintain a lower action even whilst bending. In short, and to make it easier to decide, I'm looking at 16" vs completely flat. Currently leaning towards 16" as it's almost flat but still some radius.

3) Headstock shape - I'm thinking a Fenderish equivalent of the 3+1 arrangement on a Sterling. So imagine a Fender headstock without any holes routed, scale it down in the longitudinal direction, then introduce a 3+1 arrangement. What do you think? Adjusted or standard?

Any input would be appreciated, including who to get to do it. If anyone has any price estimates before I start asking around that'd be great!

Mark

Edited January 15, 2008 by mcgraham

[eude]

Hey Mark,
My Shuker 6 string has a 33" scale.
I really haven't experienced anything negative about going and inch shorter.
I'm not the biggest of guys so the slightly shorter scale really makes things more comfortable.
There's no loss of low end and the upper register, particularly on the higher strings seems a little bit sweeter in tone.

One thing to consider though, is that adjusting the string's "speaking" length without changing anything else will effect the relative position of the pickups, if you see what I mean.
It would be like shifting the pickups slightly closer to the neck.
It won't be too drastic on a 33" scale, but any shorter might make a big difference to the sound from the pickups.

Hope that's of some use, if you got any other questions just shoot.

Cheers,
Eude

[Hamster]

Sounds like a nice project. I would strongly advise to keep to 36" or less scale length. A 38" scale might give you real tendonitis problems unless you have really massive hands and long fingers.

Hamster

[mcgraham]

[quote]One thing to consider though, is that adjusting the string's "speaking" length without changing anything else will effect the relative position of the pickups, if you see what I mean.
It would be like shifting the pickups slightly closer to the neck.
It won't be too drastic on a 33" scale, but any shorter might make a big difference to the sound from the pickups.[/quote]

Already thought of that, like you say, won't be too noticeable on a 33" scale, and on a 32" scale it's effectively like fretting the 2nd fret and tuning to Eb on a 34" scale. On a longer scale it'd serve to tighten up the sound in the same way moving pickups closer to the bridge than 'normal' would.

Do you find there's a discernable, but perhaps unquantifiable benefit in this scale length? Some people say it feels easier to play than a 34" scale length. What's your take on it? Big enough difference to warrant giving the luthier a bit of hassle?

[quote]Sounds like a nice project. I would strongly advise to keep to 36" or less scale length. A 38" scale might give you real tendonitis problems unless you have really massive hands and long fingers.[/quote]

Thanks for the advice, I've not had any experience with any crazy scale lengths, it's purely the increased string tension that made me consider such scale lengths.

Mark

[Sibob]

Why not go for the best of all worlds and get a fanned fret neck!!
The Dingwall J-Bass (Novax system) ranges from 34" on the E to 32" on the G

I assume you're looking for someone to build you one?

Si

Edited January 15, 2008 by Sibob

[mcgraham]

[quote]Why not go for the best of all worlds and get a fanned fret neck!!
The Dingwall J-Bass (Novax system) ranges from 34" on the E to 32" on the G

I assume you're looking for someone to build you one?[/quote]

I am indeed looking for someone to build me one, whilst that would be subtle enough fanning, I didn't really like the fanning of the frets on the dingwalls I tried when in the bass gallery. Plus for a 4 string I’m not sure it’s really worth it. Good idea though!

Mark

[Sibob]

Surely its worth it for the same reason that you want a different scale length in the first place!?

If you're thinking about 35" upwards across all strings, then you have to think about the fan fret concept and why it started getting used, higher notes/strings benifit from shorter scale length. So the longer scale you go to find ultimate tension in the low end, you'll increasingly (arguably) lose tone and other things in the high end....even on a 4 string.

I think the fan between 34 and 32 is because its a 4, the fan would be more on ERB's

Who you thinking of building it then?

Si

p.s.
I've never tried a Fan Fret, but the concept is enthralls me

Edited January 15, 2008 by Sibob

[mcgraham]

I agree wholeheartedly I think it’s a great idea. It achieves a much more even tension across the board, creates a more even tonality from string to string and given the right min-max scale lengths would be completely manageable. However, I didn’t find the pros outweighed the cons. Chords in the upper register are unpleasant to finger, visually it’s distracting up there too, finding strings (for wider fans) are difficult and balanced gauges would be even worse.

And at the end of the day, I felt a difference, but not a big enough one to make me switch. That’s just my opinion though, for others I know it’s what they’ve been waiting for and never known it.

I may consider fanned fret, but I’ll probably say no, if only for the reasons above.

Mark

[Bassassin]

Remember, if you're putting a replacement neck on your Geddy, if it's going to be a different scale length, you'll have to reposition the bridge to compensate. If you go for a longer scale, make sure you have room to move the bridge back - I doubt there would be room for a 36" or longer.

Jon.

[Sibob]

Ooo yeah, forgot about the bridge haha. Also fanned fret pickups are all at squiffy angles

Si

[mcgraham]

[quote]Remember, if you're putting a replacement neck on your Geddy, if it's going to be a different scale length, you'll have to reposition the bridge to compensate. If you go for a longer scale, make sure you have room to move the bridge back - I doubt there would be room for a 36" or longer.

Jon.[/quote]

Anticipated this too. I have a bridge I want to replace the Badass with, the mounting holes fit but it's they're a tad too far back to intonate correctly; so at the time of installation I'd be having additional work done in that I'd have a different bridge mounted and fitted correctly. I'm also going to get a much more professional ramp done, probably same finish as the neck just to match it. I'm potentially going to shell out for an onboard preamp, the ACG EQ02 catches my eye, as does the Villex passive eq.

Mark

[eude]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='120898' date='Jan 15 2008, 04:11 PM']Do you find there's a discernable, but perhaps unquantifiable benefit in this scale length? Some people say it feels easier to play than a 34" scale length. What's your take on it? Big enough difference to warrant giving the luthier a bit of hassle?[/quote]

It certainly makes a big difference for me.
I play a 6 string bass and having a shorter distance to stretch in any direction really helps.
Obviously going shorter would be even better, but it would start to compromise the low B response.
That wouldn't be so much of an issue with a 4 string though.

I reckon it'd definitely be worth having a chat to a luthier to get their take on it and an idea of the other work involved beyond just getting a neck made.

If you're ever in Edinburgh you're more than welcome to have go of my Shuker to see what you think of the shorter scale length.

Cheers,
Eude

[mcgraham]

[quote]I reckon it'd definitely be worth having a chat to a luthier to get their take on it and an idea of the other work involved beyond just getting a neck made.

If you're ever in Edinburgh you're more than welcome to have go of my Shuker to see what you think of the shorter scale length.[/quote]

Thanks for the offer man! My brother studies up there so when I go up to visit I may swing by.

I definitely plan on talking to a luthier seeing as how they'd be making it I'll drop Alex from ACG and Robbie a message as well as Shuker and anyone else you guys would like to recommend.

Mark

[paul h]

Buzz feiten tuning system and/or a zero fret.

I am not actually sure you can have the tuning system with a zero fret...although I would swear my MTD Kingston had both. That was one of the best playing basses I ever owned. Lightning fast, stupidly low action and intonation was spot on even with chords in the far reaches of civilisation.

Try here for more info.

[url="http://www.buzzfeiten.com"]http://www.buzzfeiten.com[/url]

Paul.

[mcgraham]

Zero fret is a top idea, although I tend to get my instruments set up bearing that concept in mind i.e. the nut is cut such that the height of the bottom of the string from the fretboard is the same/fractionally higher than the height of the fretwire from the fretboard.

News... first response from a luthier is that it will be a lot more expensive than I may have been led to believe, so I may opt for a standard replacement neck such as Warmoth, Allparts or perhaps even Status. I'm hesitant with regards Status though as I can't be sure how great a difference it would make to the tone, and particularly whether I'd like the change with graphite.

Anyone here got any experience with replacing their necks with graphite? What were the results?

Mark

[neepheid]

I'm going to embark on building a 32.5" scale neck, based upon Precision nut width. The logic behind that decision was because I have longish fingers so that a good string spread is more comfortable, but find the lateral stretching a bit tough for some reason. I'm definitely more P than J. I probably need to toughen up really.

Not that it's particularly relevant - I'm going to build it from Bolivian Rosewood (aka Morado), using an African Padauk fingerboard. I've ordered a StewMac HotRod 2 way truss rod. Waiting for the neck blank and truss rod to arrive from the states.

As for attaching to a preexisting body, as mentioned before be prepared to move your bridge.

In my humble opinion, I think a 3+1 arrangement will look rather odd on a Fender body, like it isn't supposed to be there. Like you spliced a Jazz and a MM together.

[mcgraham]

[quote]I'm going to embark on building a 32.5" scale neck, based upon Precision nut width. The logic behind that decision was because I have longish fingers so that a good string spread is more comfortable, but find the lateral stretching a bit tough for some reason. I'm definitely more P than J. I probably need to toughen up really.

Not that it's particularly relevant - I'm going to build it from Bolivian Rosewood (aka Morado), using an African Padauk fingerboard. I've ordered a StewMac HotRod 2 way truss rod. Waiting for the neck blank and truss rod to arrive from the states.[/quote]

Sounds like a cool project, you going to post progress pics?

Although I don't feel like basses are [i]too[/i] big, they certainly don't need to be as large/long/heavy as they are. Pete Skjold in the states makes the his bodies such that the bridge sits flush with the heel off the bass, no extra inches at that end, and also opts for ?+? tuner configs (string # dependent). Some guys even lop of their headstocks! I just reckon if the headstock shape was done tastefully it would look fine; and, coupled with a 33" or shorter scale length, would knock a fair bit of length off the bass.

As I said though, I don't feel my bass is too big, so it's not the end of the world if I can't get it done.

Mark

[SJA]

how about a 2+2 mini machinehead arrangement to bring the overall length down?

[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=390880"]http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=390880[/url]

[mcgraham]

See I want to bring the length down without compromising too much of the looks, a 2+2 looks more than a little dinky for what I'm after. That's a gorgeous bass though!

Mark

[neepheid]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='121637' date='Jan 16 2008, 06:08 PM']Sounds like a cool project, you going to post progress pics?[/quote]

Oh definitely, but I've got a few projects to finish off first. Still very much at the planning/gathering parts stage. I'm going to wait until I have everything before I proceed, unlike previous projects where I've been finishing off other people's abandoned ones.

Having said that, after a 3 hour sesh with the router and some ... creative clamping last night, I don't ever want to see it again

[Bigwan]

Nonsense. If you're still considering a custom built neck with a different scale length then you don't have to move your bridge at all - it doesn't matter where you're bridge is, it just matters where the frets and nut are in relation to it. As long as whoever is building the neck makes all measurements in relation to the current bridge position then everything will be fine.

[neepheid]

[quote name='Bigwan' post='122192' date='Jan 17 2008, 02:20 PM']Nonsense. If you're still considering a custom built neck with a different scale length then you don't have to move your bridge at all - it doesn't matter where you're bridge is, it just matters where the frets and nut are in relation to it. As long as whoever is building the neck makes all measurements in relation to the current bridge position then everything will be fine.[/quote]

Surely if you're referencing your measurements from the bridge, then depending on how many frets you want you may well have to make changes to the neck pocket so that the frets present themselves at the right length from the bridge?

For example:

On a 34" scale, fret 20 is 591.58mm from the nut and therefore 272.02mm (863.6 - 591.58) from the bridge.
On a 32.5" scale, fret 20 is 565.48mm from the nut and therefore 260.02mm (825.5 - 565.48) from the bridge.

If you don't move the bridge forward, then you'll have to modify the neck pocket so the heel of the neck sits nearer the bridge. You could muck about with extra/less frets depending on whether you're lengthening or shortening scale length, but you're fudging things and hoping that your bridge has enough mm of margin in it to be able to intonate properly.

For example:

On a 34" scale, fret 20 is 591.58mm from the nut and therefore 272.02mm (863.6 - 591.58) from the bridge.
On a 32.5" scale, fret 19 is 550.02mm from the nut and therefore 275.48mm (825.5 - 550.02) from the bridge.

Lose a fret just so that you don't have to move the bridge? I think it's easier to move the bridge. Feel free to tell me I'm talking out of my backside - these are merely my thoughts.

Edited January 17, 2008 by neepheid

[mcgraham]

[quote]If you don't move the bridge forward, then you'll have to modify the neck pocket so the heel of the neck sits nearer the bridge. You could muck about with extra/less frets depending on whether you're lengthening or shortening scale length, but you're fudging things and hoping that your bridge has enough mm of margin in it to be able to intonate properly[/quote]

I'm with Bigwan on this, you don't [i]have[/i] to move the bridge and you don't have to lose frets either. However you'd need a fretboard that extended beyond the heel, similar to how Warmoth do their 24 fret and 21 fret models (not that they've got alternative scale lengths to choose from...yet!). If it was a custom job I would expect that sort of service, however I need the bridge moving anyway so it's not a big deal either way.

I've posted over on TB to get some input on whether a new neck'd help me in my search for a more stable setup, had a useful response already! Status is looking more and more likely at present as Allparts don't appear to have graphite inserts, Warmoth seem to have a reputation for being heavy (the body is way light, not a good combo) and solid graphite (or composite whatever it is!) would certainly ensure a stable relief and setup from the point of view of the neck.

Mark

[mcgraham]

Update: Good news, looks like a local luthier will be able to do me exactly what I'm after at the price point I'm after. Decided on 34" scale, 16" radius, and will possibly start a new thread in the build diary if it qualifies. As I said before, other work will be done on it such as a new ramp, install eq, replace bridge, new tuners etc. I will keep you all posted.

Mark

[6stringbassist]

Have you thought about a replacement neck by Modulus, they do jazz style with a Chechen fingerboard, so you have the best of both worlds.