Amp power with lesser power rated speakers

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Lozz196' post='1061759' date='Dec 17 2010, 04:32 PM']Cheers Chris. Been looking at Clarkys TC Classic 450 - wondering if that will do what I`m after. Nothing wrong with my Terror mind, just thinking of other options. Only thing that concerns me is only one speaker output at 4ohms - my 4x10 is an 8ohm cab.[/quote]

You can plug an 8ohm speaker into a 4ohm minimum with no problem the exception possibly being an old valve amp and even then iirc it is OK... or is it the opposite with valve amps!

Either way it is absolutely OK to plug an 8ohm into the TC. If you want to add another 8 ohm cab then you can daisy chain from the parallel input on your first cab.

[umph]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1060928' date='Dec 16 2010, 07:58 PM']Problem with feeding a 4x10 and a 2x10 with the same impedance from the same amp is you are stuck with the upper limit of the 2x10, they'll both get the same power, but the 2x10 will only deal with half, and the 4x10 will be louder, potentiall drowning out the sounds of the 2x10 complaining. Better off with a 16 ohm 2x10 so each speaker gets the same.[/quote]
power is equally distributed between all speakers, so it'll be seeing a third of the total power and the 4 be 10 2 thirds

[Musicman20]

You could get the TC and add 3 x RS210 cabs...it WILL power all three no problems. Only works with TC cabs.

MASSSSSIVE sound.

[Lfalex v1.1]

Whatever you (or anyone else) does, just be careful and don't push any single part of your set-up to destruction- literally, from your fingers to your ears and everything in between.
If you percieve any signs of distress, stop pushing your amp / cabs / other equipment so hard.

I've been using this set-up in rehearsal;

Bass > Mixer > QSC PLX1202 > Trace Elliot 1153 (Compact 1x15)

The mixer can provide VERY healthy levels to drive the QSCs input correctly, The power amp can deliver approx 700wrms into the Trace, which is rated at 200wrms.
I can produce enough level to match our hard-hitting drummer and exuberant guitarist with no issues whatsoever.
Maybe the driver is conservatively rated. Maybe they arrived at the 200w rating by feeding the poor thing a 1kHz sine-wave until it melted. Who knows?
Most bass styles are punctuated or damped at some point, so it's not as though we're generating continuously high levels that might really damage drivers quickly without warning.
Notice the lack of compressor / limiter or any gating in my set-up.. Just amplified bass. If you're using a compressor properly in the context of what I'd use one for in a live set-up (stopping too much exuberance from creeping in!) you'll br safer still.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Lozz196' post='1061620' date='Dec 17 2010, 09:36 AM']I would need to use both cabs all the time, to obtain the 450 watts at 4 ohms, [b][i]due to under-powered issues[/i][/b].[/quote]

[Chopthebass]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1062124' date='Dec 17 2010, 11:05 PM'][/quote]


Hilarious

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Chopthebass' post='1062144' date='Dec 17 2010, 06:54 PM']Hilarious [/quote]
I though it odd that a thread about one myth, having too much power on tap, went so long without the even more pernicious myth, that of under powering, being raised. To have the same poster apparently believing both to be true: priceless.
No offense to the OP.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1062124' date='Dec 17 2010, 11:05 PM'][/quote]
Love that. Only been going by what I`ve read mind.

Have gone for the TC Electronics Classic 450 that Clarky was selling.

Thanks for all yr input guys - especially Bills post

[thinman]

This and other threads have reminded me how amazed I am at the size and power of rigs people have or are considering. I imagine some sound mighty impressive by themselves but do they work well in a band context?

In my band we've spent more on the PA with the aim of balancing the sound and keeping the backline volumes within reasonable levels. Drums, bass and a bit of guitar all go throw the PA - it saves a lot of rows and issues about one person drowing out everyone else. Given that the kick drum is often the first to get drowned out these rigs used at volume must necessitate more PA support to balance things?

Maybe I'm just suffering from rig envy but I have trouble seeing the need to cart smething the size of my wife's wardrobe around with me!

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='thinman' post='1062388' date='Dec 18 2010, 12:40 PM']This and other threads have reminded me how amazed I am at the size and power of rigs people have or are considering. I imagine some sound mighty impressive by themselves but do they work well in a band context?

In my band we've spent more on the PA with the aim of balancing the sound and keeping the backline volumes within reasonable levels. Drums, bass and a bit of guitar all go throw the PA - it saves a lot of rows and issues about one person drowing out everyone else. Given that the kick drum is often the first to get drowned out these rigs used at volume must necessitate more PA support to balance things?

Maybe I'm just suffering from rig envy but I have trouble seeing the need to cart smething the size of my wife's wardrobe around with me![/quote]

I hear what you are saying but for many of us the watts may have gone up (i.e. amps are more powerful for a lot less money) but the size of my rig has gone down (speakers are more efficient).

[icastle]

[quote name='thinman' post='1062388' date='Dec 18 2010, 12:40 PM']This and other threads have reminded me how amazed I am at the size and power of rigs people have or are considering. I imagine some sound mighty impressive by themselves but do they work well in a band context?
It's all down to the way human ears perceive different frequencies.[/quote]
A 100W bass amp sounds quieter than a 100W guitar amp because the average ear is more sensitive to the upper and mid-range frequencies of a guitar than the lower frequencies of a bass.
So, it's not about bass players wanting to blast everything else off the stage, however tempting that may be sometimes - it's about having enough low end volume to allow the bass to be heard!

[quote name='thinman' post='1062388' date='Dec 18 2010, 12:40 PM']In my band we've spent more on the PA with the aim of balancing the sound and keeping the backline volumes within reasonable levels. Drums, bass and a bit of guitar all go throw the PA - it saves a lot of rows and issues about one person drowing out everyone else. Given that the kick drum is often the first to get drowned out these rigs used at volume must necessitate more PA support to balance things?[/quote]
I have a 750W rig and set it to a volume where I can hear myself and the rest of the band can hear me.
I DI out of the amp into the mixing desk and the volume is tweaked there to give the best balance for the audience.

[quote name='thinman' post='1062388' date='Dec 18 2010, 12:40 PM']Maybe I'm just suffering from rig envy but I have trouble seeing the need to cart smething the size of my wife's wardrobe around with me![/quote]
That's easy to fix - buy your wife a bigger wardrobe

[JTUK]

Watts are watts..it is the ability to mix the band with a backline that will do you most favours.
It is about balancing your instruments and the frequencies that make a mix.
Mix is not volume..mix is space and layers

Funniest thing you'll see on a band stage that can just about accomodate a 4 piece inc vocal who doesn't play an intrument, is
the bass player will lug in 2x4x10's.. Jeezz... Really..?????

[thinman]

[quote name='icastle' post='1062414' date='Dec 18 2010, 12:59 PM']- it's about having enough low end volume to allow the bass to be heard![/quote]


Yes - but some of that power can be in the PA.

I'm not saying people shouldn't have a powerful amp because they can always turn it down - my point is that once your bass backline starts to drown out the drum kit and the venue dictates that the band needs to be louder, you're into drum micing territory and probably feeding a bit of bass into the PA too.

Having plenty of headroom in an amp is fine but I still don't get the need to match that with a lot of big cabs (and by that I'm taliking about multiple 4 x10"etc ) and above.

I'm NOT saying no-one shoukd have such a rig - each to their own and all that - I just don't really get the point!

[icastle]

[quote name='JTUK' post='1062428' date='Dec 18 2010, 01:14 PM']Funniest thing you'll see on a band stage that can just about accomodate a 4 piece inc vocal who doesn't play an intrument, is
the bass player will lug in 2x4x10's.. Jeezz... Really..?????[/quote]

Stacked on top of each other, two 4x10s don't take up any more floor space than one 4x10 - unless the stage area is so small that you're using shelving to slot the band members into

[Lozz196]

I go for heads & cabs to get the depth of sound that I`ve not yet been able to find with a combo with just 1 or 2 speakers. Am sure they are out there, but, and totally illogical this, I don`t mind spending xx on a head & two cabs, but would resent paying that same amount on just one combo.

The band I`m in only ever play to the volume of the drummer. If we`re playing in a very large venue, we still won`t turn up any louder, as there would be no point if the drums couldn`t be heard. We prefer in these instances to stick at the same volume, and get the audience nearer. If going thru a house pa, we`ll have our backline volume slightly less than usual, as monitoring provides the band sound.

So although I may have enough volume to completely drown out the rest of the band, I definately wouldn`t, it`s just that I find the sound coming from multiple speakers to have more depth and size than that from one speaker, when at the same volume. Thats why I have a (fairly) big rig, tho with the Terror, and now the TC Classic 450, I am slowly reducing the weight/size of some of my gear.

Last point, I have a 4x10 and a 2x10. In smaller venues, only the 4x10 would be used.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='thinman' post='1062433' date='Dec 18 2010, 01:17 PM']Yes - but some of that power can be in the PA.

I'm not saying people shouldn't have a powerful amp because they can always turn it down - my point is that once your bass backline starts to drown out the drum kit and the venue dictates that the band needs to be louder, you're into drum micing territory and probably feeding a bit of bass into the PA too.

Having plenty of headroom in an amp is fine but I still don't get the need to match that with a lot of big cabs (and by that I'm taliking about multiple 4 x10"etc ) and above.

I'm NOT saying no-one shoukd have such a rig - each to their own and all that - I just don't really get the point![/quote]

To elaborate on what's been said above, there's a real difference in terms of power requirement between bass that's loud enough to be heard with a traditional sound, and bass that's got serious LF content at a similar volume. For a more modern, deep sound there's still no substitute for power and size. And many compact subs at the lower end of the PA market are IMO rather compromised in their musicality for the sake of LF extension and sound sluggish as a result. Add to that the advantage of keeping vocals in a modest PA separate from power-demanding instruments like bass and there is definitely an argument to be made for running an old-school, separates-style system. It's very reliant on stage acoustics and the musicality of the players though.

By the way I'm not disagreeing with you per se, since I've gigged quite happily with a 130w 1x12" combo for years! But I'm after a funky, up-front sound that's quite mid-heavy and just doesn't need that kind of LF.

[icastle]

[quote name='thinman' post='1062433' date='Dec 18 2010, 01:17 PM']Yes - but some of that power can be in the PA.
I'm not saying people shouldn't have a powerful amp because they can always turn it down - my point is that once your bass backline starts to drown out the drum kit and the venue dictates that the band needs to be louder, you're into drum micing territory and probably feeding a bit of bass into the PA too.[/quote]
Yes, but that scenario supposes that the bass player is a daft git who has no realistic comprehension of their role within the music making process. It's about having the correct level of output to complement the overall sound.

[quote name='thinman' post='1062433' date='Dec 18 2010, 01:17 PM']Having plenty of headroom in an amp is fine but I still don't get the need to match that with a lot of big cabs (and by that I'm taliking about multiple 4 x10"etc ) and above.[/quote]
I must admit that I've never been tempted to go down the two 4x10 route because I don't play the sort of material that needs that degree of volume.
I have a 4x10 in the rehearsal studio (saves lugging other gear about).
I have a 2x10 that I use for small gigs and supplement that with a 1x15 for larger gigs.

[quote name='thinman' post='1062433' date='Dec 18 2010, 01:17 PM']I'm NOT saying no-one shoukd have such a rig - each to their own and all that - I just don't really get the point![/quote]
I think that's the crux of the matter.
Although we are all bass players, we are all working in different types of venues and playing different musical genres.
Some people advocate using a preamp fed into the PA system and that gives them a comfortable working environment, others advocate using 8x10 cabs and others are getting along perfectly well with a 150W combo.
If you don't get the point in using a larger rig than you're using then you don't need one as you're getting exactly what you need using what you are using!

[warwickhunt]

I use a rig that is easily manageable for manouvering into smaller pub gigs, that has enough umph to use without PA support and obviously can be dialled back to give me just enough on-stage monitoring if using PA support.

However...

With regard to the matter of letting the PA replicate your sound - that kind of makes a nonsense of any bassist's argument about the quality of the timbre of the combination of technique/bass/amp/cab; essentially you are eliminating the cab aspect of 'your' sound! I love the sound of my Aggies and though I've been tempted to go down the route of super-lightweight cab, I've not found one that I like the sound of. If I was just monitoring then this aspect of my sound would be redundant and I'd then have to rely on the quality of the PA system to replicate the sound that I want... I've rarely liked the sound of my bass through a PA as much as I do through my cabs!

Hmmmm new can of worms.

[thinman]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='1062464' date='Dec 18 2010, 01:55 PM']I use a rig that is easily manageable for manouvering into smaller pub gigs, that has enough umph to use without PA support and obviously can be dialled back to give me just enough on-stage monitoring if using PA support.

However...

With regard to the matter of letting the PA replicate your sound - that kind of makes a nonsense of any bassist's argument about the quality of the timbre of the combination of technique/bass/amp/cab; essentially you are eliminating the cab aspect of 'your' sound! I love the sound of my Aggies and though I've been tempted to go down the route of super-lightweight cab, I've not found one that I like the sound of. If I was just monitoring then this aspect of my sound would be redundant and I'd then have to rely on the quality of the PA system to replicate the sound that I want... I've rarely liked the sound of my bass through a PA as much as I do through my cabs!

Hmmmm new can of worms. [/quote]


[quote]With regard to the matter of letting the PA replicate your sound - that kind of makes a nonsense of any bassist's argument about the quality of the timbre of the combination of technique/bass/amp/cab; essentially you are eliminating the cab aspect of 'your' sound![/quote]

By that argument if you were to play Wembley arena you'd need an enormous backline?. Isn't that why PAs are fed with either or both a DI and cab mic to capture the tone?

I'm in no way saying everyone should play with a 60w practice combo I'm trying to understand the practical application of having very large rigs of multiple of 4 x 10"s etc

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='thinman' post='1062558' date='Dec 18 2010, 03:30 PM']By that argument if you were to play Wembley arena you'd need an enormous backline?. Isn't that why PAs are fed with either or both a DI and cab mic to capture the tone?

I'm in no way saying everyone should play with a 60w practice combo I'm trying to understand the practical application of having very large rigs of multiple of 4 x 10"s etc[/quote]

I'm not arguing or disagreeing with you; I'm simply pointing out that there are countless debates on virtually every bass forum about this speaker v that speaker and the various merits of their respective tone, when in fact if you are playing any venue whereby you are going through the PA then 'your' sound (if part of it is reliant upon the tone of your cab) is compromised because you are then reliant upon the PA speakers to replicate the tone you strove to create... again a massive can of worms if you are reliant upon a PA system recreating your signature tone regardless of mic/DI.

[TimR]

Ideally your PA should be totally transparent and the sound of your bass should be the same through the PA as it is from your cabs.

There are several reasons why this doesn't always work.

1). Band PA is not always what you need - It would be great to have and expensive mixer and pre-amps and arrays of parametric EQ with thousands of watts of power and fantastic subs. In reality you have a pair of 12" or 15" speakers owned by the singer with a Behringer poweramp and mixer.

2). Soundman is not always your best friend - ideally you have your own who knows what you are supposed to sound like. Alternatively the venue soundman listens to your band playing and talks to you before even touching his PA and learns very quickly what you want.
In reality you get someone who is only interested in turning the system up to 1.1 gigawatts to show it off.

3). Bands don't have producers - Someone who listens to your tracks and says OK I know you like that fill there, or you like that bass tone, but guys - it's just doesn't work live.

There are many others but you get the idea.

[thinman]

[quote name='TimR' post='1062593' date='Dec 18 2010, 04:01 PM']In reality you get someone who is only interested in turning the system up to 1.1 gigawatts to show it off.[/quote]

Sometimes that's just the bass player!

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='TimR' post='1062593' date='Dec 18 2010, 11:01 AM']2). Soundman is not always your best friend - ideally you have your own who knows what you are supposed to sound like. Alternatively the venue soundman listens to your band playing and talks to you before even touching his PA and learns very quickly what you want.
In reality you get someone who is only interested in turning the system up to 1.1 gigawatts to show it off.

3). Bands don't have producers - Someone who listens to your tracks and says OK I know you like that fill there, or you like that bass tone, but guys - it's just doesn't work live.[/quote]When it comes to getting the bass right in the PA I'd say 90% of soundmen are clueless. Record producers aren't much better; I only heard the Ox's true tone on one track, 'My Generation'.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='1062924' date='Dec 18 2010, 08:44 PM']When it comes to getting the bass right in the PA I'd say 90% of soundmen are clueless. Record producers aren't much better; I only heard the Ox's true tone on one track, 'My Generation'.[/quote]

Getting a meaty bassline to jump out of a tranny radio without absolutely shagging the speakers places quite tight constraints on how you commit it to record! But most record producers are clueless? I wonder how most pop records were 'meant' to sound?!

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1062972' date='Dec 18 2010, 04:13 PM']Getting a meaty bassline to jump out of a tranny radio without absolutely shagging the speakers places quite tight constraints on how you commit it to record! But most record producers are clueless? I wonder how most pop records were 'meant' to sound?![/quote]
There's two lines of thought there. One is the way the producer wants it to sound, the other is true to the band's live sound. Ent made it no secret about how he felt about the butchering of his tone, which was accomplished by low passing so severe that his RotoSounds ended up sounding like tape-wound LaBellas. It had nothing to do with modes of playback, everything to do with conformity, and most odd that Ent put up with it.