The Tone Fallacy

[TimR]

There are things we know about human biology and psyche.

We know that people see colours differently, people appreciate different paintings and women can discriminate more colours than men, some people are colour blind.

We know people like different foods and have different tastes, some can stand very hot chillies others only like beef and Yorkshire pudding.

We also know that people hear differently, some people have different levels of deafness, we all like different tunes, some people have perfect pitch and others are tone deaf. Women listen to the words/singer, men listen to the music.

Drummers listen to the drums, bassists listen to the bass, the best musicians can hear the whole band at once.

So why the obsession with 'my tone'? You are the only one who hears it that way. You can't describe it in words to a sound-man. No measuring equipment in the world can measure it to reproduce it. The environment plays a huge part in its reproduction so it doesn't matter how much you spend on your gear when you walk into that dodgy pub with the low beams it just won't work.

Buy something that sounds good and concentrate on the notes.

Or am I alone here.

Edited December 18, 2010 by TimR

[thebrig]

[quote name='TimR' post='1062730' date='Dec 18 2010, 06:24 PM']There are things we know about human biology and psyche.

We know that people see colours differently, people appreciate different paintings and women can discriminate more colours than men, some people are colour blind.

We know people like different foods and have different tastes, some can stand very hot chillies others only like beef and Yorkshire pudding.

We also know that people hear differently, some people have different levels of deafness, we all like different tunes, some people have perfect pitch and others are tone deaf. Women listen to the words/singer, men listen to the music.

Drummers listen to the drums, bassists listen to the bass, the best musicians can hear the whole band at once.

So why the obsession with 'my tone'? You are the only one who hears it that way. You can't describe it in words to a sound-man. No measuring equipment in the world can measure it to reproduce it. The environment plays a huge part in its reproduction so it doesn't matter how much you spend on your gear when you walk into that dodgy pub with the low beams it just won't work.

Buy something that sounds good and concentrate on the notes.

Or am I alone here.[/quote]
Great point!

[phil.i.stein]

[quote name='TimR' post='1062730' date='Dec 18 2010, 06:24 PM']There are things we know about human biology and psyche.

We know that people see colours differently, people appreciate different paintings and women can discriminate more colours than men, some people are colour blind.

We know people like different foods and have different tastes, some can stand very hot chillies others only like beef and Yorkshire pudding.

We also know that people hear differently, some people have different levels of deafness, we all like different tunes, some people have perfect pitch and others are tone deaf. Women listen to the words/singer, men listen to the music.

Drummers listen to the drums, bassists listen to the bass, the best musicians can hear the whole band at once.

So why the obsession with 'my tone'? You are the only one who hears it that way. You can't describe it in words to a sound-man. No measuring equipment in the world can measure it to reproduce it. The environment plays a huge part in its reproduction so it doesn't matter how much you spend on your gear when you walk into that dodgy pub with the low beams it just won't work.

Buy something that sounds good and concentrate on the notes.

Or am I alone here.[/quote]
can't argue with that.

[thinman]

[quote name='TimR' post='1062730' date='Dec 18 2010, 06:24 PM']There are things we know about human biology and psyche.

We know that people see colours differently, people appreciate different paintings and women can discriminate more colours than men, some people are colour blind.

We know people like different foods and have different tastes, some can stand very hot chillies others only like beef and Yorkshire pudding.

We also know that people hear differently, some people have different levels of deafness, we all like different tunes, some people have perfect pitch and others are tone deaf. Women listen to the words/singer, men listen to the music.

So why the obsession with 'my tone'? You are the only one who hears it that way. You can't describe it in words to a sound-man. No measuring equipment in the world can measure it to reproduce it. The environment plays a huge part in its reproduction so it doesn't matter how much you spend on your gear when you walk into that dodgy pub with the low beams it just won't work.

Buy something that sounds good and concentrate on the notes.

Or am I alone here.[/quote]


I get where you're coming from to some extent but obviously bass can and should have its variations in tone and style.

What I do have a strong opinion on is that some bassists obsess over their solo tone which may not always sound great in a band context, i.e. the solo tone should only be a start point - it will probably need altering to fit the mix.

[Mr. Foxen]

you can recognise musicians by their signature tones. So it makes sense to seek your own. You should have enough control over your gear to get there in adverse conditions. Low beams probably help, break up the ceiling.

[largo]

I think it's important to enjoy anything you do, so my "on stage" bass tone is important to me. Like you say it's what I hear. What the sound engineer wants to do regards FOH mix is his choice and I really don't care if it's a completely different tone to what I'm hearing, so long as the band sound good. Does that make any sense?

[Conan]

I agree to an extent. However, if I am pleased with my tone, I enjoy playing more. If I enjoy playing, I tend to play better and with more enthusiasm. That makes the band sound better and everyone is happy.

If I can't get a tone that pleases me, I find playing a bit of a chore sometimes. That can't be good.

[bubinga5]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1062740' date='Dec 18 2010, 06:29 PM']you can recognise musicians by their signature tones. So it makes sense to seek your own. You should have enough control over your gear to get there in adverse conditions. Low beams probably help, break up the ceiling.[/quote]
i agree with the OP...MR Foxen i agree and i dont... i think the important thing is to forge a style and personality from the way you play and your pesonality, not your tone..i sound different from another Modulus Jazz bassist because of my accent on the bass...nothing to do with tone..IMHO

[Mr. Foxen]

Your tone is determined by the way you play. There is note choices and timing, but would you recognise a dude from their stuff being played on a keyboard? I once read that tone is 85% fingers 10% bass and 5% rig, and it has stood up pretty well. Of course, volume is 100% rig, and that is the important bit for me.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='TimR' post='1062730' date='Dec 18 2010, 06:24 PM']Buy something that sounds good and concentrate on the notes.[/quote]

This one line defeats your whole post!

The very fact that you are advocating buying something that 'sounds good' you make a conscious decision to select the equipment that gives you the sound that [u]you[/u] want.

Another way of looking at it; if the sound produced by your equipment doesn't matter then we should all use the same equipment and more importantly not complain when we don't like the sound that we get. I'd HATE to play in my band with the same tone as some of the bands that I have seen but you are right that it is personal preference.

I'll concede that struggling to get the minutia of nuance right whilst sitting in your bedroom/recording studio, then going down The Dog and Duck on Saturday night with your mates to play covers is a bit pointless. Saying that if it is your hobby and you want to spend your money on it why shouldn't you and in turn it gives you more pleasure.

[Doctor J]

Like it or not, your tone, what you play and how you play it all come as a package. To ignore one or to say it's insignificant will be to the detriment of the others. If the punters don't cop onto that nice growl you get out of your bass and rig, why would they notice that tasteful fill you did either? If you don't think the little things about our instrument all contribute to the whole, just let the keyboard player do the bass and stay at home

[markstuk]

+!
[quote name='thinman' post='1062738' date='Dec 18 2010, 06:29 PM']I get where you're coming from to some extent but obviously bass can and should have its variations in tone and style.

What I do have a strong opinion on is that some bassists obsess over their solo tone which may not always sound great in a band context, i.e. the solo tone should only be a start point - it will probably need altering to fit the mix.[/quote]

[Cat Burrito]

Tone is important to the individual. It's not the cake but it could be the icing.

I do see logic in the OP post though. I do enjoy the quest for finding sounds similar to those I like, to putting my stamp on a sound and to talking about it on a Bass forum. It isn't what drives me though.

[LawrenceH]

In discussions like this I think it's worth bearing in mind that while many people wouldn't be able to tell specifically what was wrong with a mix on a recording, they can often tell that a mix is bad.
Same applies live, I've done sounds for bands where people have said the band played a lot better than at a previous gig whereas I know the main difference is that they had a better mix and the audience could hear the track as a whole better.
Good bass tone allows the musicality of the band to shine through - there's so many different ways this can be achieved with different styles, basses and players, but that doesn't mean everything's entirely relative.

[jay249]

Timbre isn't the only aspect of music, but it's the only aspect throwing money at can affect for the better. I'm not qualified to state this as a fact but humans do seem to like the quick fix and tone can be "bought" and "owned".

[SteveK]

I've read many posts in the 2 years or so that I've been here, along the lines of: [i]'How do I get this tone?'[/i], [i]'How do I get that tone?'[/i] [i]'How do I get to sound like Jaco'[/i] [i]'How do I get to sound funky?'[/i]
My usual response used to be, 'It's in the fingers'. I don't generally respond to that type of thread anymore. It kinda gets boring trying to explain it to those that would prefer to ignore their fingers.

Give me any reasonable quality amp and cab combination, give me any reasonable quality instrument and I will sound like me. Give me a DI and plug me straight into the board and I will sound like me.

Amps and cabs and instruments have their own inherent sounds of course, but in the grand scheme of bass playing that is pretty insignificant. Far too much emphasis is placed on gear.

IMO of course

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Conan' post='1062746' date='Dec 18 2010, 06:35 PM']I agree to an extent. However, if I am pleased with my tone, I enjoy playing more. If I enjoy playing, I tend to play better and with more enthusiasm. That makes the band sound better and everyone is happy.

If I can't get a tone that pleases me, I find playing a bit of a chore sometimes. That can't be good.[/quote]

Dead right. I have a tone I love - burpy fingerstyle and smooth slap. I hope our soundman reproduces that through the PA. If I'm happy with my tone on stage, I play much better.

Edited December 18, 2010 by Pete Academy

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1062775' date='Dec 18 2010, 07:00 PM']Your tone is determined by the way you play. There is note choices and timing, but would you recognise a dude from their stuff being played on a keyboard? I once read that tone is 85% fingers 10% bass and 5% rig, and it has stood up pretty well. Of course, volume is 100% rig, and that is the important bit for me.[/quote]

Good post. I would say it's virtually all down to how you play.

[Lozz196]

I generally sound like me, no matter what I play through, due to my ham-fisted way of hitting the strings far too hard.

I do agree though, that if I`m playing through something an amp that is producing a sound I like, I enjoy playing far more than when using a rig that I`m not keen on.

[TimR]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='1062777' date='Dec 18 2010, 07:01 PM']This one line defeats your whole post!
...[/quote]

Isn't being human great

You can hold two completly opposing views at the same time and be happy with them.

Hopefully I won't now spend the next two days trying to explain myself on the Internet.

[TimR]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1062775' date='Dec 18 2010, 07:00 PM']Your tone is determined by the way you play. There is note choices and timing, but would you recognise a dude from their stuff being played on a keyboard? I once read that tone is 85% fingers 10% bass and 5% rig, and it has stood up pretty well. Of course, volume is 100% rig, and that is the important bit for me.[/quote]

OK, this is close to my thinking.

I don't think that your note choices and timing are anything to do with tone. They're style.

Style and tone may define your "sound".

I believe that the bass is a lot more than 10% but the 5% for the rig is probably close although the rig part is pretty essential component in the final chain. I think that a lot of rigs are transparent enough that if you are producing a good tone from the bass you don't have to worry too much about the rig.

I spent 7 years looking for a bass that was right for me. Most of this searching was to find fingerboard width and weight, but there was a strong influence on fingerboard type and pickup type. If I knew then what I knew now I would have build one myself.

The point I'm trying to make is who is it that actually listens to your tone. I've had compliments from other players (which makes me feel all warm inside - awww shucks guys you're too kind ) but I've also been surprised at how at some gigs I've just been happy to play with whatever sounds happens to come out of the amp when I turn it on.

Other gigs I've twiddled madly with knobs all night trying to get something useable out of my normal gear. The band leader's has asked me at the end whether I was having problems and then said it sounded OK to him.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='TimR' post='1062921' date='Dec 18 2010, 08:42 PM']I believe that the bass is a lot more than 10% but the 5% for the rig is probably close although the rig part is pretty essential component in the final chain. I think that a lot of rigs are transparent enough that if you are producing a good tone from the bass you don't have to worry too much about the rig.[/quote]

Thing is, some tones rely on the rig, and not very transparent ones at that. I'm mostly thinking the driven SVT stack, which is a classic tone, but also all the other driven amp tones, which now I think often feature a Rick too, but really, does anyone play a Rick squeaky clean?

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='TimR' post='1062730' date='Dec 18 2010, 10:24 AM']There are things we know about human biology and psyche.

We know that people see colours differently, people appreciate different paintings and women can discriminate more colours than men, some people are colour blind.

We know people like different foods and have different tastes, some can stand very hot chillies others only like beef and Yorkshire pudding.

We also know that people hear differently, some people have different levels of deafness, we all like different tunes, some people have perfect pitch and others are tone deaf. Women listen to the words/singer, men listen to the music.

Drummers listen to the drums, bassists listen to the bass, the best musicians can hear the whole band at once.

So why the obsession with 'my tone'? You are the only one who hears it that way. You can't describe it in words to a sound-man. No measuring equipment in the world can measure it to reproduce it. The environment plays a huge part in its reproduction so it doesn't matter how much you spend on your gear when you walk into that dodgy pub with the low beams it just won't work.

Buy something that sounds good and concentrate on the notes.

Or am I alone here.[/quote]I've been preaching this for years

"My tone" is a marketing tool aimed at the ego. It's funny how many musicians swear that advertising plays no part in music gear sales and how the salesmen never tell fibs to sell gear. Some worship marketing in a desperate attempt to buy skill and an advantage. Almost all claims of tone discerning ability can be disproved easier than palm reading but the religious fervor which some cling to the myth prevents any logic from creeping in to the subject.

Tone is for chumps! IMHO Learn just a little about science and biology and move past the hype.

Unfortunately the average human ego responds to revelations that it's been tricked with anger. It's nearly impossible to show someone reality once they've accepted faith. We use this in advertising to make gobs of money. Thanks for the money

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='jay249' post='1062844' date='Dec 18 2010, 11:43 AM']Timbre isn't the only aspect of music, but it's the only aspect throwing money at can affect for the better. I'm not qualified to state this as a fact but humans do seem to like the quick fix and tone can be "bought" and "owned".[/quote]
I would change that to it's the only thing we think we can change by throwing money at. Sure you can argue all day that you can't deny one thing sounds different from the other but the overwhelming majority of these purchases are just attempts to buy validation.

When I was starting out I had a Tokai PJ bass and massive gas for better tone. Then I had the opportunity to trade basses with Jeff berlin for a bit and found I sounded like crap on his bass and my bass was the one that sounded great when he played it. But when we traded back my bass no longer sounded great.

I still collect gear because I love gear as toys but I no longer feel my tone is something I can save up for. Now I have 7 basses in gigging rotation and I can get a great tone on all of them in any situation.

[Michaelg]

its a bit important when you're recording.