The Tone Fallacy

[redstriper]

When I play different basses through the same rig, I notice they all have different tones, influenced by the type of strings, pick ups and construction materials etc.
I know the kind of tone I like and when I hear it, I call it 'my tone'.

So I'm a faith accepting egotistical chump programmed by marketing - blimey!

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1063073' date='Dec 18 2010, 03:26 PM']So I'm a faith accepting egotistical chump programmed by marketing - blimey![/quote]
The first step is admitting you have a problem

[Vibrating G String]

I think people often confuse tone with playing and experience. When Jeff Berlin played my bass he got the exact same tone out of it that I did. I played it, handed it to him. Nothing changed, no knobs were turned no pickups were swapped for their slight edge in round transparency that can only be heard by lemurs. Yet it was a completely different experience. But the exact same tone.

I think too often we confuse a great player with gear choices and attribute way too much to the gear and dismiss the performer. It's like attributing great basketball playing to the right shoes, which makes way more money than telling bass players they need the right gear. I've made most of my money in advertising, I can only share the way we think of this.

[Mr. Foxen]

Only the same tone if you ignore the influence of fingers there. Gear is all tone shaping, but the sound in the air is the tone, and fingers is a pretty big influence there.

[MythSte]

Hmm, Interesting for sure!

I make a fuss about "my" tone. I know with the way I play a P bass sounds very different to a J bass (both pickups on). I prefer the latter. So thats the starting point for "my tone" no matter how I decribe it!

As for fingers, bass and amp. I'd normally say its a balance equal among the three. However having thought about it and this thread I think the "core" tone starts with the bass, your fingers then make it yours and your amp makes it louder. Or something!

[Chris2112]

Well, you may have a point if your band mates are tone deaf or not particularly interested in the sound of the band as a whole. If I bring the guys in my band a click track with me playing a bassline over the top they can instantly tell which bass it is I'm using, and I'll choose which bass to use based on the way it sounds.

My Kubicki and ACG both have "modern" tones, but they're both very different. The Kubicki is definitely a "one of a kind" type bass which sounds unlike anything else, it's very bright and full of click and punch with a "honk" in the upper mids. The ACG is closer to what you'd find from a Wal, with a crisp and burpy sound that extends right through the midrange. Essentially, the ACG can do anything because of it's filter based preamp but I tend to keep it settled around a bridge pickup focused burpy tone; think Geddy Lee's sound on "Hold Your Fire" or thereabouts.

I would agree that these things would probably be less important if I was playing in a pub rock band or something like that, but since I've retired from live playing and the band is now 100% studio based, making music for our enjoyment, tone is more important than ever for me. I'm not going to sit around for ages recording, mixing and mastering songs if I'm not happy with my tone!

[redstriper]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1063102' date='Dec 19 2010, 12:04 AM']I think people often confuse tone with playing and experience. When Jeff Berlin played my bass he got the exact same tone out of it that I did. I played it, handed it to him. Nothing changed, no knobs were turned no pickups were swapped for their slight edge in round transparency that can only be heard by lemurs. Yet it was a completely different experience. But the exact same tone.

I think too often we confuse a great player with gear choices and attribute way too much to the gear and dismiss the performer. It's like attributing great basketball playing to the right shoes, which makes way more money than telling bass players they need the right gear. I've made most of my money in advertising, I can only share the way we think of this.[/quote]

Every player sounds like themselves, whatever instrument they play and a great player is a great player on any instrument
But the tone of those instruments can vary a lot and most players, (great or otherwise) try to choose an instrument that has a tone suited to them.
It is obvious that advertisers will exploit this, like anything else, but that does not deny the human experience that drives it.

Or perhaps you would prefer a single State produced bass suitable for all - come the revolution

[Chris2112]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1063120' date='Dec 19 2010, 12:34 AM']But the tone of those instruments can vary a lot and most players, (great or otherwise) try to choose an instrument that has a tone suited to them.[/quote]


Indeed, Victor Wooten wouldn't sound anywhere near as good as he does if he played something like a clunky old P bass or a Thunderbird. Similarly, I doubt Mark King would get away with using tat like that in Level 42!

[Oakbear]

It seems to me that that end result (call it tone if you will), from a bass rig is a combination of all the factors discussed. Because they are all in balance with each other, chnaging one can change all the others.
How much each part will play proportionally will depend on the each of these individual factors.

I honestly don't think it's all in the player - Mark King would sound pretty different on a Ashbory going through a bass heavy rig.
However likewise you can't 'buy' tone, as if you are missing skill it'll throw all the rest out.

I'm all for getting the tone you want, if you can replicate it!
A lot of it may be in your head though.....

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1063104' date='Dec 18 2010, 04:06 PM']Only the same tone if you ignore the influence of fingers there. Gear is all tone shaping, but the sound in the air is the tone, and fingers is a pretty big influence there.[/quote]
The tone was identical as far as what could be bought.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1063120' date='Dec 18 2010, 04:34 PM']Or perhaps you would prefer a single State produced bass suitable for all - come the revolution [/quote]
Not really into the polarized straw man/false dichotomy argument.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='1063123' date='Dec 18 2010, 04:41 PM']Indeed, Victor Wooten wouldn't sound anywhere near as good as he does if he played something like a clunky old P bass or a Thunderbird.[/quote]
It's these kind of comments I find most insulting to a player. Attributing their instrument as the most important thing in their sound just encourages more people to think you can buy talent. Victor does just fine on a wide range of instruments and I've seen him do it in person. A Fodera won't help if you can't make an old P bass sound good. If Victor switched to an old P bass all the experts would simply start attributing his tone to the old P bass. Not unlike all the experts who used to go on and on about Geddy's unmistakable Ric tone only to find out it was a Jazz on the recording. Same with Flea's MM which turned out to be an Alembic or Spector, or Chris Squires Ric etc...

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Oakbear' post='1063174' date='Dec 18 2010, 06:15 PM']A lot of it may be in your head though.....[/quote]
That can be demonstrated to be true. It's harder to convince someone their religion is false but it's easier to show someone else's is wrong. If you've ever seen someone go on and on about what they think is a very expensive bottle of wine you should see parallels to the golden ear tone experts and their claims that exceed what is possible with laboratory instruments. Even better, watch a good psychic work. The tools are the same.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1063175' date='Dec 19 2010, 02:17 AM']The tone was identical as far as what could be bought.[/quote]

Er, gear was the same, tone was different. That is kind of the whole point. Unless you both sounded the same. Tone is a sound.

[Vibrating G String]

If you think you can trust your ears, are they better than your eyes? How many colors in this picture and what are they? And this is not directed at you Foxen.

[attachment=66730:colors.gif]

Edited December 19, 2010 by Vibrating G String

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1063182' date='Dec 18 2010, 06:50 PM']Er, gear was the same, tone was different. That is kind of the whole point. Unless you both sounded the same. Tone is a sound.[/quote]
Is this another semantic battle where you take some words from my post and ignore the others qualifying the first words and then create something to argue about even though it's already been explained? It's really tiring and a bit of a threadkiller.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1063183' date='Dec 19 2010, 02:55 AM']If you think you can trust your ears, are they better than your eyes? How many colors in this picture and what are they?

[attachment=66730:colors.gif][/quote]

What point are you going for there? My eyes are significantly worse than my ears, which is why I wear glasses. There will always be three colours, because I use a CRT monitor, I know this as a fact. And it is entirely irrelevant to the fact that bass players sound different to each other.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1063188' date='Dec 18 2010, 06:59 PM']What point are you going for there? My eyes are significantly worse than my ears, which is why I wear glasses. There will always be three colours, because I use a CRT monitor, I know this as a fact. And it is entirely irrelevant to the fact that bass players sound different to each other.[/quote]
Please ignore this picture, I tried to add a line about it's not for you but you are too fast.

And CRT's can display more than 3 colors, feel free to derail this thread saying no it can't over and over again

[BTS_Spacebass]

back on topic. Tone for me is about my bass sounding like it does [b]in my head[/b]. Its something thats is part of the whole creative process. To always sound better. I've played certain lines or runs through various setups and where sometimes I feel like i'm not playing it properly due to the sound or 'tone' and start to doubt myself as a player. Then I play the same through my nice new equipment and to me it sounds like it should do. Probably makes no difference to the rest of the band but it makes me happy. and thats what its all about.

Tx

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='BTS_Spacebass' post='1063193' date='Dec 19 2010, 03:12 AM']Then I play the same through my nice new equipment and to me it sounds like it should do.[/quote]

Is that fresh gear shine, the fact you know how to use the gear to best create your tone, or the inherent tone of the gear?

I've always aimed for having the shabbiest, most cobbled together ugly looking stuff I can figure how to make work. A chunk of that is because I figured should I ever become a known figure nothing will have that 'as used by Mr. Foxen' tag stuck to it that I hate. As it worked out, I drifted toward quite nice stuff because I liked the way they sounded (and have a good resale value when sacrificed to the altar of GAS), and sort of mildly begrudge the fact they are known names (sort of, Matamp and Aguilar aren't really popular type well known brands, but are top bollock in their niche).

[BTS_Spacebass]

Some of it is the inherent sound of the cabs and gear; some of it is knowing what to tweak to achieve that sound. All of it is part of that process isn't it? Tone or the ideal sound can't be caused by just 1 thing. that would be silly

[Mog]

Theres no way I can agree with the OP, thats right up there with what bass sounds best for metal. The whole 'My Tone' thing is whats makes us individual. Imagine if all basses had that farty Jaco tone or Victors monotone, dynamically dead twang?

[stingrayPete1977]

If I sell all my proper Rays and replace them with those Vintage copies off ebay for £129 Im certain [i]some[/i] of the notes I play will not come through on stage or out front. Thats where different abilitys come in, Someone who has just started out playing a 12 bar blues could use either and make some nice sounds especially if the rig can do the business but as soon as you started to try and get funky it will start to go wrong. Sure you can spend less by upgrading the preamp etc but if you know what instruments will create not only the sound your after, Which is personal and maybe pointless to others, But more importantly be able to produce the signal to be amplified when played over the neck in different styles then thats good reason to buy that version.

Someone who has more ability than me or plays tapping and 2 handed stuff would not be able to produce all the sounds they want on my gear, Sure we would both hear them differently tone wise anyway on their gear but some notes neither of us would hear on mine then playing becomes pointless and we may as well give up.

Also its funny how some people perceive others to of been had by marketing if they buy more than one item from a maker, Maybe they have had plenty of gear and exposure to others gear and realise thats the gear they like and trust in the same way lots of people stay with a brand of car unless they have problems with them? The only marketing that gets me is Marmite, As soon as I see an advert for it I crave it on toast! Yum

[Rich]

[quote name='Doctor J' post='1062791' date='Dec 18 2010, 07:09 PM']just let the keyboard player do the bass[/quote]
Admins, ban this guy immediately.

[Paul S]

I think a lot of this discussion is muddied because people are talking about different things. The word 'tone' doesn't seem to define the same quality for different people, therefore opinions about 'tone' vary immensely. If there was an industry standard meaning for the word, I suspect we might all agree.

I discovered this at the SE bass bash recently - I asked for a workshop on different ways of using the amp eq to change the sound - or 'tone' as I imagine it to be. Alex Claber talked admirably and authoritatively about tone coming from fingers, attack, position where the string was plucked etc, and barely touched on the eq setting which, it is now apparent, is simply a tool to make adjustments for your acoustic environment. Which has underscored my basic misunderstanding of what I was asking - I now think I was imagining shaping my sound for different types of music. I am still unsure exactly how I would describe this, though.