The Tone Fallacy

[Truckstop]

Ah, I see. Just re-read your post! Didn't know you'd bought it in 1980!
Basically, Trigger won an award for being careful with his equipment as a street-cleaner (or some such) and boasted that his broom was 17 years old. However, he had changed the handle 11 times and the brush 9 times. Obviously not making the broom 17 years old.

Truckstop

[redstriper]

[quote name='TimR' post='1062730' date='Dec 18 2010, 06:24 PM']Buy something that [b]sounds good[/b] and concentrate on the notes.[/quote]
Why not buy something that sounds bad, if tone doesn't matter ?
In fact why bother listening at all ?

Your 'sounds good' will not be the same as mine - tone, like everything else is subjective and I want to 'sound good' to me, not you.

[TimR]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1066952' date='Dec 22 2010, 04:43 PM']Why not buy something that sounds bad, if tone doesn't matter ?
In fact why bother listening at all ?

Your 'sounds good' will not be the same as mine - tone, like everything else is subjective and I want to 'sound good' to me, not you.[/quote]

That was in the initial post and I've clarified what I meant by it since - endlessly searching for that 'elusive tone' to the exclusion of everything else, rather than accepting what your ears are hearing.

In fact the two examples Marcus Miller and John Entwistle are really quite interesting.
Marcus - was given a bass and made his sound from it - legions of bass players are trying to get that tone.
John - Became a millionaire after the song My Generation was recorded and then spent the rest of his life looking for some mystic tone that was in his head. Ironic considering that most people think of his tone as being the best on My Generation.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1066755' date='Dec 22 2010, 05:27 AM']In breaking news, this changed a few days ago when I played a MIM Fender jazz at a friend's house.
It was beautifully set up with flats and a low action and it wasn't too heavy, it was the closest in tone to my old bass that I have found.
It isn't for sale, but my friend said he can set up almost any Fender or Squier in the same way and I have decided to look for the lightest jazz I can find.[/quote]
To me this suggests the string choice has a dominant tone shaping function. I think if you had someone else record a handful of J basses with flats plucked over the neck you'd have a hard time picking yours out from the bunch. What we hear has been shown to be an experience formed by more than one sense, when you play a bass you've had for 30 years you have a very strong expectation of what you'll hear.

So while you may never find a bass that sounds exactly the same to you it shouldn't be too hard to find one that can't be distinguished tonally by anyone else.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1066888' date='Dec 22 2010, 07:40 AM']The previous owner changed the body and board because the originals were so badly burnt by the first owner who often set fire to it as part of his stage show.[/quote]
Clearly you had one of the first roasted necks, nothing sounds like roasted maple

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1066952' date='Dec 22 2010, 08:43 AM']Why not buy something that sounds bad, if tone doesn't matter ?
In fact why bother listening at all ?

Your 'sounds good' will not be the same as mine - tone, like everything else is subjective and I want to 'sound good' to me, not you.[/quote]
I'll pretend I didn't see any sarcasm and say there is some truth to that. Somewhat.

Our definition of what sounds good is based partly on our familiarity with it. Buying something that doesn't sound good right away can help you build the skills to have more control over your tone, like a piano player who can't swap out pianos all the time.

Picking a bass can be like picking a dog, which one you grab may not be that important at first sight but after ten years of bonding your mutt becomes unique to you and impossible to replace as it will never be the same.

[Vibrating G String]

I have bought basses that I didn't like the tone of, my Tobias renegade for example. Thought the tone sucked, then I figured it out and now it's a fave.

Edited December 23, 2010 by Vibrating G String

[TimR]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1067424' date='Dec 23 2010, 08:07 AM']...
like a piano player who can't swap out pianos all the time.
...[/quote]

Excellent point. I'll ask my Dad. You don't see pianists changing strings, or pianos every few months. What other musicians are there that obsess and swap instruments so much?

[scalpy]

Anybody else see that youtube video of TM Stevens and Jonas Hellborg jamming on the same bass? No tone difference what so ever. Your kit does matter.

As to the tone fallacy, it is important. The brain associates certain timbres with certain feelings/ grooves etc. Imagine Bernard Edwards playing Cliff Burton's rig! It would not sound like disco, the exaggerated harmonics of distorted bass would tread on everybody else's toes and not provide the syncopated ghost notes and tiny touches required for the genre. If tone isn't important why is there a multi-million pound industry based around live sound and recording, let alone instruments? Why is a good mix engineer worth their weight in gold?

[Adrenochrome]

[quote name='TimR' post='1067615' date='Dec 23 2010, 11:21 AM']... What other musicians are there that obsess and swap instruments so much?[/quote]

Guitards

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Adrenochrome' post='1067638' date='Dec 23 2010, 11:35 AM']Guitards [/quote]

Harmonica players. They seem to change instrument every bloody song

[scalpy]

[quote name='TimR' post='1067615' date='Dec 23 2010, 11:21 AM']Excellent point. I'll ask my Dad. You don't see pianists changing strings, or pianos every few months. What other musicians are there that obsess and swap instruments so much?[/quote]

Oh you do see piano players obsessing over the instrument. At uni we had two Steinways and a Yamaha concert grand set up in the concert hall and believe me the debate would rage over the right choice. I've seen little documentaries during the proms where the keyboards and actions are removed from the instrument so that the soloists can have something close to their preference. The practicalities and cost of the instrument mean they can't go the lengths we do! And as for organists! Living in the shires and being involved with a church school means every summer I have to sit through endless discussions over which of the three counties cathedrals has the best organ. Tedious in the extreme.

[redstriper]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1067424' date='Dec 23 2010, 08:07 AM']I'll pretend I didn't see any sarcasm and say there is some truth to that. Somewhat.[/quote]
I wasn't being sarcastic at all, I appreciate your advice here and I'm finding it most refreshing.

I have never given much thought to tone or any other aspect of bass playing until recently, it's just something I do and I've been happy with the same bass for over 30 years.
It's only since deciding I want a new one and joining this forum that my problems began.
I live in the sticks and don't get to see many new basses and all the ones I've tried sound and feel horrible because I don't like round wound strings.
The last time I went round music shops in the 70s, most of the basses were strung with flats and the main choice was between a Fender P or J.
Now I see what you mean about any decently set up jazz bass being suitable for me and I will look for the lightest one I can find, which isn't easy because they all tend to the heavy side.

Another bassist friend of mine went in a music shop recently to check out jazz basses on my behalf.
He tried 3, a MIA standard at £999, a MIM standard at £499 and a Squire CV at £269.
He said he would choose the Squire because it was on a par with the others quality and playability wise and it felt very similar to his 1964 Fender, plus he couldn't see any justification for the price difference.
When I asked what they sounded like, he said he hadn't plugged them in to an amp, because they'd all sound alike depending on the player - a man after your own heart eh!

[TimR]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1067661' date='Dec 23 2010, 11:57 AM']It's only since deciding I want a new one and joining this forum that my problems began.
...

...
I live in the sticks and don't get to see many new basses and all the ones I've tried sound and feel horrible because I don't like round wound strings.
...

...
When I asked what they sounded like, he said he hadn't plugged them in to an amp, because they'd all sound alike depending on the player - a man after your own heart eh![/quote]

Forums have their good and their bad points

Have you thought of buying a set of flats and taking them around with you. I'm sure any decent shop will allow you to restring a bass if you find you like the feel and want to try before you buy. As long as you don't spend all day restringing bass after bass.

I've found that the more experienced salesmen will leave you with the bass and tell you to ask if you want to try it with an amp. The less experienced will be plugging in the leads before they've found you a stool.

Edited December 23, 2010 by TimR

[redstriper]

[quote name='TimR' post='1067686' date='Dec 23 2010, 12:22 PM']Have you thought of buying a set of flats and taking them around with you. I'm sure any decent shop will allow you to restring a bass if you find you like the feel and want to try before you buy. As long as you don't spend all day restringing bass after bass.[/quote]
Yes, I tried that once and it didn't go well.
Most shops just said no and the one that said ok, let me change one string for 2 minutes and then made me feel bad for not buying the bass.
Music shops are strange places.

[redstriper]

Back to tone and what I think I've learned so far:

It's all psychology really - if you believe that you have a good tone, then you do (whatever gear you use) and this helps you play better.
But if you think that you have a bad tone, you're doomed to discontent and poor performances.
So change the way you think instead of your gear.

I know I've got a [b]great[/b] bass tone.............. (which is nice)

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='TimR' post='1067615' date='Dec 23 2010, 03:21 AM']What other musicians are there that obsess and swap instruments so much?[/quote]
IME that would mainly be guitarists including bass guitar and keyboard players.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='scalpy' post='1067635' date='Dec 23 2010, 03:33 AM']If tone isn't important why is there a multi-million pound industry based around live sound and recording, let alone instruments?[/quote]Because it's profitable. Why do people spend billions each year on diets?[quote]Why is a good mix engineer worth their weight in gold?[/quote]
Because they have good credits and people will pay for anything that they think will make them a star.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1067661' date='Dec 23 2010, 03:57 AM']I wasn't being sarcastic at all, I appreciate your advice here and I'm finding it most refreshing.[/quote]
Then I'm clearly misreading you, my apologies

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1068413' date='Dec 23 2010, 04:19 PM']Back to tone and what I think I've learned so far:

It's all psychology really - if you believe that you have a good tone, then you do (whatever gear you use) and this helps you play better.
But if you think that you have a bad tone, you're doomed to discontent and poor performances.
So change the way you think instead of your gear.

I know I've got a [b]great[/b] bass tone.............. (which is nice) [/quote]
I don't know if I'd swing that far to one side. Your mind is just one part of the equation, most of us tend to think we are perfect little perception devices and discount our mind completely. If we accept that out mind has a lot to do with our perception I think we make better choices and are less affected by advertising hype and quasi religious hair splitting.

I tend to believe that those who think they've nailed their perfect singular tone simply can't hear the changes brought on by other variables and are just convinced of the power of their purchases and how close their gear is to Fleas, Geddys or Justins.

Edited December 24, 2010 by Vibrating G String

[redstriper]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1068443' date='Dec 24 2010, 01:03 AM']Then I'm clearly misreading you, my apologies [/quote]

No need to apologise, my flippant attitude is often mistaken for sarcasm - it's probably psychology again, but let's not go there.

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='Doctor J' post='1062791' date='Dec 18 2010, 07:09 PM']Like it or not, your tone, what you play and how you play it all come as a package. To ignore one or to say it's insignificant will be to the detriment of the others. If the punters don't cop onto that nice growl you get out of your bass and rig, why would they notice that tasteful fill you did either? If you don't think the little things about our instrument all contribute to the whole, just let the keyboard player do the bass and stay at home [/quote]

+1

I agree..everything that each musician does in a band, contributes to the end result. So, in my opinion, it is worth worrying about each aspect; your playing, your bass, your rig, fx etc, etc..

But when pursuing our 'ultimate tone', I think we also need to take into consideration the fact that what sounds good in isolation, doesn't always sound good when played in a band setting.. There's been many times when I've been in a recording studio and hear the bass track in isolation and not particularly liked the tone, but when it's then heard in context with all the other instruments, it sounds great for the song!

However, if you're a famous player with a 'signature sound' like Jaco, Marcus Miller or Victor Wooten, then your band's overall sound is built around the sound of the bass (for obvious reasons)...so the ground-rules are different.

But for most of us, the bass playing that we do week-in, week-out is, there to support the overall sound of the band..So, IMO, we have to pay attention to how our bass sound complements the 'whole'...

Anyway, Happy Xmas folks.. Hope it's a good one!

[redstriper]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1068450' date='Dec 24 2010, 01:27 AM']I don't know if I'd swing that far to one side. Your mind is just one part of the equation, most of us tend to think we are perfect little perception devices and discount our mind completely. If we accept that out mind has a lot to do with our perception I think we make better choices and are less affected by advertising hype and quasi religious hair splitting.

I tend to believe that those who think they've nailed their perfect singular tone simply can't hear the changes brought on by other variables and are just convinced of the power of their purchases and how close their gear is to Fleas, Geddys or Justins.[/quote]

Oh 'eck - just when it was all going so well - you've gone and lost me again..............!

I nailed my perfect tone 30 years ago and it hasn't changed, but I am aware of changes caused by other variables and I enjoy the challenge of working with them at different venues with different rigs etc.
I have owned the same gear for many years and only replace it when absolutely necessary.
I don't know about 'the power' of my purchases - I just pay as little as possible to get the job done and I'm not interested in having the same gear as anyone else or sounding like anyone else.
In fact, I rarely listen to other bassists and I'm completely out of touch with modern music.

And who is Flea, Geddy or Justin ?

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1068795' date='Dec 24 2010, 07:14 AM']And who is Flea, Geddy or Justin ?[/quote]
That is out of the mainstream
bass for:
Red Hot Chili Peppers
Rush
Tool

[redstriper]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1071416' date='Dec 29 2010, 01:00 AM']That is out of the mainstream
bass for:
Red Hot Chili Peppers
Rush
Tool[/quote]
Thanks, I have seen the Red Hot Chili Peppers on TV, but I haven't knowingly heard anything by Rush and I've never even heard of Tool.
Mainstream music is bland and boring to me and I'm not often inspired by other bass players.

I simply love creating music and seeing people enjoy my band is a buzz.

Being happy with my tone isn't critical, but it helps.