The Tone Fallacy

[BigRedX]

Surely the right bass tone depends on what kind of music you're playing what the other instruments are and what kind of tone they have?

A "signature tone" would only really work if you always play the same kind of music with the same other musicians and they also never change their sounds.

[thinman]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='1063874' date='Dec 19 2010, 07:12 PM']Well... my inability to find a replacement H&K BB combo lead me on my quest to try and replicate the sound that [u][b]I[/b][/u] wanted[/quote]

Well, you can always buy one of the heads back off me! I've still got one of yours and it's doing a stirling service after a little bit of work. Actually, I'm not sure I would sell it! My Ashdown MAG head sounds yeuch by comparison.

[Chris2112]

[quote name='Wil' post='1063651' date='Dec 19 2010, 04:04 PM']You quite rightly say in your second paragraph that if someone were to make a ridiculous, blanket statement about a player's tone you'd probably dismiss their point of view outright, and yet you've made the exact same kind of statement about every single player who's ever wielded a P bass?[/quote]


If I ever hear a good sound coming from a P bass I'll be sure to let you know! I'm not saying that it's a bad design in every sense, because it spawned the Yamaha Attitude bass which has produced some incredible tones.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='thinman' post='1063963' date='Dec 19 2010, 08:33 PM']Well, you can always buy one of the heads back off me! I've still got one of yours and it's doing a stirling service after a little bit of work. Actually, I'm not sure I would sell it! My Ashdown MAG head sounds yeuch by comparison.[/quote]

Typical!

Help me out; was that the separate H&K BassBase 250 head, the amp section from the combo, the BassBase 400 or the BassBase 600 (Can you see a pattern)? If it was the combo section I'm well chuffed that the last repair done fixed it... but also a bit miffed!

If it was the separate head then I'm equally chuffed that it didn't develop the issues that the combo did.

As it happens I needed to use both of my combos when playing with my band so I'd still need to slave the H&K and find the same cab that was part of the combo. Not unachievable but then again it'd be a case of finding something lightweight enough (those H&K combos were a killer weight).

[umph]

i'm bored of these threads, unfortunatly different gear does effect how you sound and unfortunatly punters tend to like it more if it sounds more pleasing to the ears.

[TimR]

[quote name='umph' post='1064065' date='Dec 19 2010, 09:58 PM']i'm bored of these threads, unfortunatly different gear does effect how you sound and unfortunatly punters tend to like it more if it sounds more pleasing to the ears.[/quote]

I see you are selling some pickups.

Are you one of these people still searching for that elusive "Tone"?

[TimR]

[quote]In 1969, The Who released Tommy, (with two contributes from John, "Cousin Kevin" and "Fiddle About", both of which were branded "sick" by the BBC) which put the band firmly in the major league. It also made them all millionaires, which finally allowed John to live the sort of lifestyle he had dreamt about. Once he was able to afford it, one of his passions was collecting bass guitars - at any one time he could have up to 250 of them. This wasn't just a rich man's indulgence - John was always searching for a better tone, and tried every different bass he could get his hands on, trying to find the sound he longed for.[/quote]

Shame when so many people search for that "My Generation sound"

Edited December 19, 2010 by TimR

[Delberthot]

What was the question again?

oh aye - I don't claim to be the best bass player in the world but I have quite a unique style and I've found that i can pick up any bass and within a couple of minutes have a close approximation of my sound. So much so that i've given up on buying expensive basses because I sound like me whatever I play.

I buy basses now because they look nice

Edited December 19, 2010 by Delberthot

[umph]

[quote name='TimR' post='1064074' date='Dec 19 2010, 10:02 PM']I see you are selling some pickups.

Are you one of these people still searching for that elusive "Tone"?[/quote]

i build all my own gear so not really searching for it since all my stuff does sounds i like and i'm pretty happy with it.

No need to be a dick about people enjoying finding the sound in their head.

[TimR]

[quote name='umph' post='1064095' date='Dec 19 2010, 10:23 PM']i build all my own gear so not really searching for it since all my stuff does sounds i like and i'm pretty happy with it.[/quote]

Is this because you like how it sounds or because you have experimented and make it to sound how you like.


[quote name='umph' post='1064095' date='Dec 19 2010, 10:23 PM']No need to be a dick about people enjoying finding the sound in their head.[/quote]

I don't understand this comment.

[redstriper]

Of course everybody sounds like themselves whatever bass they play and what's wrong with that?

But if tone is only in the fingers and not the instrument, why do I choose a particular bass over another?
Eg. You have 2 basses, both sound similar but one has something extra in the tone - maybe it goes deeper, sounds plummier and fits the sound in your head better than the other.
The other one is more playable and comfortable, but doesn't quite have the tone of the first bass.

Which one do you take to the gig ?

In my case, it's the one with the best tone, because it makes me play better and I get into playing so much more, even though it's a heavy, hard to play beast.
I know, it won't sound much different to the crowd, whichever bass I use, but the one with 'my' tone will always ensure a better performance.

Edited December 19, 2010 by redstriper

[umph]

[quote name='TimR' post='1064119' date='Dec 19 2010, 10:41 PM']Is this because you like how it sounds or because you have experimented and make it to sound how you like.




I don't understand this comment.[/quote]
I've obviously experimented, i'm not gonna make gear i don't like haha.

You seem to be putting across a kind've vibe that insinuates you think people who fuss about their gear are inferior.

[scalpy]

Your tone does matter, it's pretentious but it's your voice. I can sing Nessun Dorma at the right pitch and right words and rhythm, but I sound like a dysfunctional foghorn and nobody wants to hear it, quite rightly.

Playing in covers bands and doing pit-work new strings and a scooped middle don't sound or feel right. I need strings with the edge just taken off them and a nice fat sound to provide something for the punters to feel and recognise as bass.

Choosing gear and having something I feel is special to me is one is a massive pleasure I really enjoy. I'm sure millions of musicians feel the same. The marketeers can supply loads of gear with only tiny differences (look at the mark bass range of heads for the love of pete) because there is a demand. Some basses and rigs don't do it for me, but I really enjoy my new rig and how it brings out aspects of my playing my previous and perfectly decent rig didn't. I've also seen an upturn in studio bookings as the engineer likes it so much.

[TimR]

[quote name='umph' post='1064131' date='Dec 19 2010, 10:46 PM']You seem to be putting across a kind've vibe that insinuates you think people who fuss about their gear are inferior.[/quote]

Ok. Sorry, it's not intentional, I think it's just the way you're reading it. No need for name calling

Most, if not all, of us want to sound good and we all spend a lot of time looking for gear that gives us the sound we are after. Just I think some lose their way and become obsessive. They can't see the woods for the trees. It's easily done, I just wondered to what degree people were obsessed.

From this thread most don't seem to be as obsessed as I thought, but then maybe the obsessives are busy looking for new gear on other threads

[redstriper]

I have to be happy with my tone to play anything really worthwhile.

[bobbass4k]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1064146' date='Dec 19 2010, 10:55 PM']I have to be happy with my tone to play anything really worthwhile.[/quote]

Yup.

I agree that room acoustics and equipment and all manner of things influence your tone. Something as seemingly benign as the length of cable from bass to amp makes a difference. I think reaching for one singular "perfect" tone is a little misguided. But you should always try and get at least [b]a[/b] sound you're happy with everytime you play. Maybe others are different but if I'm thinking "gah, that open A sounds a bit weak" then I'm not playing as well as I could be, because I'm going to avoid playing it or be thniking about it constantly.

There a thousand different factors that affect your tone, stuff as silly as the ambient air temperature and the number of windows in the room, if you aim for one particular tone, you're not going to get it most of the time, but aim for a tone you're comfortable with.

[fatback]

[quote name='SteveK' post='1062861' date='Dec 18 2010, 07:54 PM']Give me any reasonable quality amp and cab combination, give me any reasonable quality instrument and I will sound like me. Give me a DI and plug me straight into the board and I will sound like me.

Amps and cabs and instruments have their own inherent sounds of course, but in the grand scheme of bass playing that is pretty insignificant. Far too much emphasis is placed on gear.

IMO of course [/quote]

+100 It shouldn't take anything fancy in the way of kit, but it does need to be right for you.

The tone you make can hugely influence what you feel like playing in that moment.

[ThomBassmonkey]

When you say "I will sound like me", do you mean that if you hit a single note, it'll always sound the same if it's you playing it?

That's the difference between tone and style. Obviously right hand technique comes into it such as where and how hard you hit the string, but anything you do with your left hand doesn't really affect your tone.

I think I'd sound very different using one of my basses through my rig than if I used a Musicman through a Genz rig (for example). It'd probably still be recognisable as my playing (by those who know it) from what I play, but the tone would be very different.

The holy triad of tone for me is definition, fatness and focus. If I feel like my bass sounds muddy, isn't thickening the band's sound or is thickening up the sound too much and interfering with everything else, I can't enjoy playing because it just feels to me like it's a mess instead of a part of a group effort to produce music.

I've (so far) not found many, if any, basses that can completely ruin the sound for me. There's plenty of amps I've used (for various reasons) that I just don't feel get the job done in a way that makes me happy. I'm fotunate to be endorsed by an amp brand that make amps that do all 3 of those things perfectly though and fortunate enough to have a couple of basses I enjoy playing so it's not an issue. But it's only not an issue because I have the gear that sounds like I want it to sound.

I'm also lucky that at one of the venues we play a lot (The Old Bell in Derby) the soundguy there loves our music and isn't afraid to tell us what he thinks we need to do to improve our sound. I've been switching gear about recently and always ask his opinion on EQing and my general sound.

[Al Heeley]

I get tone fatigue during a gig - am I alone? What starts off as a really good tone becomes too boxy or mid-rich or boomy or something else after 4 or 5 songs so I try to change it around every song or two to keep it fresher. Tweaking the tone controls on the bass, switching in a graphic eq pedal or the tone controls on the amp - bright switch, etc. helps keep my ears from becoming accustomed to the tonal response and keeping me engaged. Is that weird? It's like your sense of smell becoming saturated quite quickly with certain odours and ignoring them, the brain starts to seek changes that differentiate from the background.
I encourage our band's guitarists to switch round guitars and amp channels for the same reason.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='BTS_Spacebass' post='1063193' date='Dec 18 2010, 07:12 PM']back on topic. Tone for me is about my bass sounding like it does [b]in my head[/b]. Its something thats is part of the whole creative process. To always sound better. I've played certain lines or runs through various setups and where sometimes I feel like i'm not playing it properly due to the sound or 'tone' and start to doubt myself as a player. Then I play the same through my nice new equipment and to me it sounds like it should do. Probably makes no difference to the rest of the band but it makes me happy. and thats what its all about.

Tx[/quote]
Confidence and mood can affect what you hear. Have you noticed the same gear sounds different on different days? I've noticed those who are insecure about tone rarely find it. Those who are secure with their tone seem to move on to the next step of making music.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='TimR' post='1062904' date='Dec 18 2010, 12:32 PM']Isn't being human great

You can hold two completly opposing views at the same time and be happy with them.

Hopefully I won't now spend the next two days trying to explain myself on the Internet.[/quote]

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='1063288' date='Dec 19 2010, 02:29 AM']A Kubicki sounds like a Kubicki. A Ken Smith always sounds like a Ken Smith. An Alembic always sounds like an Alembic.[/quote]
I disagree and I've seen many examples of each of those instruments being mis identified by tone experts. People like to think they can hear a company in any setting but that's just wrong.

An Alembic can have thousands of sounds, doesn't it seem a bit far fetched to say they all are uniquely Alembic and identifiable as such?

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='TimR' post='1063386' date='Dec 19 2010, 03:43 AM']Short fingernails, round wound strings, rosewood fingerboard, PJ pickups and transparent amp is what gets me close. EQ on the amp can help get the message through a crowded band mix and dodgy room acoustics. Not always, but sometimes you just have to live with what you have.[/quote]
Where can I buy short fingernails?

And what about belly fat? Does pressing a bass against a giant mute really have an effect? And any tone "expert" who doesn't discuss ambient temperatures is a newbie!

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1063527' date='Dec 19 2010, 06:10 AM']And what is the next step, oh wise one ?[/quote]
Wanting to learn and not just win on the interweb.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='TimR' post='1063664' date='Dec 19 2010, 08:20 AM']I think you're missing the point of my argument.[/quote]That should appear by default in the sig of every post on this board
[quote]I believe there are people out there who are buying this and buying that in some misplaced belief that they going to one day reach that "Tone Nirvana". The point that they've been searching all their lives for. Does this ever happen?[/quote]This thread reminds me of a day working on a TV show. There was a large crowd of extras and during a take one of the extras in the back stopped the take and asked the director if she should be wearing her blue or green contacts for this scene. She was immediately thrown off the set and all for looking for "her" tone. She didn't understand why this wasn't important.