The Tone Fallacy

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Mog' post='1063681' date='Dec 19 2010, 08:32 AM']I get what you're saying lad. I reckon you're on to something WRT the search for an elusive sound but if people didn't go after That sound in their heads we wouldn't have those really great bass tones. Timmy C, Phillip Bynoe, Justin Chancellor, Flea, Nathan East, Rob Trujillo, Marcus Miller...the list is endless.[/quote]
There is a video of Marcus on bassplayer.com where he says spend no more than 6 months on your tone and move on. If his aunt bought him a Stingray instead that would be his tone. His tone quest was to play whatever he got as a gift. So if someone really wants to be just like that bass hero ask for a new bass for xmas and learn to play whatever you get. Maybe one day you'll change a crap bass into one worth thousands like Marcus did.

[Al Heeley]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1064207' date='Dec 20 2010, 12:42 AM']An Alembic can have thousands of sounds, doesn't it seem a bit far fetched to say they all are uniquely Alembic and identifiable as such?[/quote]I don't see it like that, I see it more as a range of tonal qualities or characteristics it might have rather than a number of discrete 'different' sounds. These may be unique or shared with other brands of bass. There are also the influences of technique, setup, string type, etc. that influence this, causing one person to sound quite different to another on the asame instrument.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='bobbass4k' post='1064172' date='Dec 19 2010, 03:25 PM']There a thousand different factors that affect your tone, stuff as silly as the ambient air temperature and the number of windows in the room[/quote]
I knew I wasn't alone

I'm not against the search for tone, what really bothers me is when people state things as scientific facts when it's clear they know nothing about the subject they are lecturing on. Hearing wood species and cloth wrap on wiring, or the ever popular corporate tone.

I think this is tied to the insecurity thing again, the same one that takes great offense to differing opinions and sees them as personal threats. If people would pontificate with a tad bit more humility it would be less inviting to try to share the basics of science. Though on the other side I should learn from dealing with creationists and recognize the futility of trying to debate with those so personally invested in their opinions so that's my failing And to whoever is offended by that earlier comment I don't mean you but the other guy.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='fatback' post='1064180' date='Dec 19 2010, 03:34 PM']The tone you make can hugely influence what you feel like playing in that moment.[/quote]
I agree with that. I just don't agree that there is only one good tone or a best tone or a reasonable tone I can't play with.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='Al Heeley' post='1064217' date='Dec 20 2010, 01:21 AM']I don't see it like that, I see it more as a range of tonal qualities or characteristics it might have rather than a number of discrete 'different' sounds. These may be unique or shared with other brands of bass. There are also the influences of technique, setup, string type, etc. that influence this, causing one person to sound quite different to another on the asame instrument.[/quote]

I'd agree with this.

Basses and amps can sound like thousands of things, but when you build a tone, you start with your fingers, then through the bass, then you build it up from there with FX and amp. However you EQ your amp, you're always building on the tone of that bass and your picking style. Yes, you can disguise it or make other things sound like it, but it'll always naturally sound like what it is.

Personally I like leaving my gear sounding as natural as I can because of that reason. I like the sound of my equipment and to try and drastically change it would mean that I'm just not happy with the gear I have and I'd replace it. I tweak the EQ on my amp and sometimes on my bass (though I often run them in passive mode with the tone flat) but it's only tweaks, nothing's maxed or mined.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1064190' date='Dec 19 2010, 04:05 PM']Obviously right hand technique comes into it such as where and how hard you hit the string, but anything you do with your left hand doesn't really affect your tone.[/quote]
[size=7][b]OMG!!![/b][/size]

Edited December 20, 2010 by Vibrating G String

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Al Heeley' post='1064217' date='Dec 19 2010, 05:21 PM']I don't see it like that, I see it more as a range of tonal qualities or characteristics it might have rather than a number of discrete 'different' sounds. These may be unique or shared with other brands of bass. There are also the influences of technique, setup, string type, etc. that influence this, causing one person to sound quite different to another on the asame instrument.[/quote]
Do you think an Alembic always sounds like an Alembic whatever the situation? I was arguing against a brand always being unique and saying it can often sound like other brands.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1064222' date='Dec 20 2010, 01:33 AM'][size=7][b]OMG!!![/b][/size][/quote]

Judging from the last page or two, peaking with this post, clearly a good conversation's gone out of the window and this is destined to join the recent trend of "one man against the world" threads. I'm gonna duck out before I end up falling into it's trap.

[Vibrating G String]

OK, Later.

[redstriper]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1064212' date='Dec 20 2010, 12:49 AM']Wanting to learn and not just win on the interweb.[/quote]

I do want to learn and I really don't want to win anything.
I have played the same bass for over 30 years and always been happy with the tone and I still sound like me on any other bass, but I only [b]really[/b] get into playing on my old bass because I can't get the same tone on anything else.
Now I'm finding my old bass too heavy and I want a lighter one, but I can't find one with the same tone.
Should I stop looking and learn to love a new tone?

[51m0n]

Tone = Timbre

The Timbre of an instrument is all about the relationship between the different harmonics of the harmonic series in the sound it produces integrated with the envelope of that sound. In my opinion it is nothing to do with note choice or musical style at all, and trying to suggest it does is just clouding the issue. If you dont know the envelope is the way the sound amplitude changes with time as a note is played. A greater difference between the initial transient attack volume and the sustain of the note, or a longer attack phase will generally sound brighter for instance.

Any number of things can have an effect on timbre, including, but not only:-

Instrument construction
Instrument materials
Instrument pickups
Instrument electronics (circuit type, components, s/n ratio etc etc)
Instrument age
Instrument action/setup

String type
String gauge
String flexibility
String age

Lead(s)

Preamp (circuit type, components s/n ratio etc etc)
Power amp (circuit type, components s/n ratio etc etc)

Speaker cable(s)

Cab (design, construction, materials)
Drivers (design, materials, construction, age)

Room design, construction, materials, content, size

Playing style, position along the string, energy (ie how hard the string is struck), damping/muting (so left hand can be an influence IMO).

Any mic/pre/recording system used to capture that sound (oh boy, can of worms, lets not go there!)

The hearing of the listener (well naturally)



I'm sure I could think of more, but all of this changes the timbre of sound from the point of view of the listener, change any of the above and the timbre of the sound changes.

So, given that you may have sound in your head A, then changing any of the above may or may not get you closer to A. If A is what you want then feel at liberty to do what you must to get to A, but you must understand that any of the above may change outside of your control and change that sound away from A. Worse still anyone else may not perceive your tone to be anything like A, but thats another topic really...


If you want to play like someone else (why would you?), learn all their songs, note choices/phrasing etc etc

If you want to sound like someone else (why would you?), buy the same gear and study their technique and learn all their songs and note choices/phrasing

Edited December 20, 2010 by 51m0n

[Mog]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1064215' date='Dec 20 2010, 01:07 AM']There is a video of Marcus on bassplayer.com where he says spend no more than 6 months on your tone and move on. If his aunt bought him a Stingray instead that would be his tone. His tone quest was to play whatever he got as a gift. So if someone really wants to be just like that bass hero ask for a new bass for xmas and learn to play whatever you get. Maybe one day you'll change a crap bass into one worth thousands like Marcus did.[/quote]

Cool, so are you just pointing that out or what? I dont get what I'm supposed to take from the post.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Mog' post='1064410' date='Dec 20 2010, 11:24 AM']Cool, so are you just pointing that out or what? I dont get what I'm supposed to take from the post.[/quote]
Same as you would take from a Jeff Berlin one

[peteb]

For what it’s worth….

I played for quite a few years without any idea about tone and was happy with anything that sounded half decent! I then saw an article by a guy called Jimmy Bain where he gave examples of amp settings that he said provided the 4 basic bass guitar sounds. I tried out all four, decided which one I liked best and that has basically been ‘my sound’ ever since!

If I can use any amp with a bit of thump, a cab with 10” speakers and a (preferably active) bass with roundwound strings, I can generally sound like me!

I can’t agree that there is no such thing as tone, but I would say that many people waste too much time and money chasing something that they will never find…..

[Doddy]

I've got 20 odd basses and no matter which one I play,there is a certain 'core tone' that is a constant. Sure,the Bass with EMG's is
more aggressive than the ones with Bartolinis,but the basic tone is there. I believe that a player actually carries 'their sound' with them,
in the way that they play the instrument. You can fiddle about as much as you want with gear and EQ or whatever,but there are always going to
be certain characteristics to the tone that you produce on an instrument.
Listen to Les Claypool play a Rickenbacker-he sounds just like Les Claypool. Listen to Marcus Miller's bass sound before he had the Bartolini
preamp fitted in his Fender. His sound wasn't quite as refined as it later became,but his core tone was there and is recognisable as being
Marcus.

[rmshaw37]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1065345' date='Dec 21 2010, 02:10 AM']You can fiddle about as much as you want with gear and EQ or whatever,but there are always going to
be certain characteristics to the tone that you produce on an instrument.
Listen to Les Claypool play a Rickenbacker-he sounds just like Les Claypool. Listen to Marcus Miller's bass sound before he had the Bartolini
preamp fitted in his Fender. His sound wasn't quite as refined as it later became,but his core tone was there and is recognisable as being
Marcus.[/quote]


i think the work refine is about right! that endless quest for tone only really gets started when you realise that you need to start with what you've got!

i must admit that i lust after other peoples gear, and do my research into what might work for me! maybe this is why these kind of forums are here - cause there is such a wealth of knowledge out there, but not the places to go and try the gear yourself!

it was stated earlier that if youre happy with on stage tone then its a better gig for you! i firmly agree with this, and the band know my tone, and know when i'll be playing my best!

that said gear does sound different with different folk - our guitarist for example utters "oh sh*t" if we roll up to a venue and its trace elliot on there - but a band we play with has a tone to die for with trace gear!

another point (sorry for rambling) but tone can be described i''ve found - told the producer what i wanted from my tone, but also what it needed to sound like in the full band mix, and he nailed it! absolutely what the band was expecting and i'm happy as a pig in sh*t with my tone - now the annoying bit is creating that live! lol it may just be a tolerance thing, but i can get "pretty close" with ANY gear - pa cabs or guitar gear so it must be an eq and style thing in my eyes - i know my place, as it were, in the bands eq as a whole! - a bit like the tonal version of putting a sexy little fill in the right place to make peoples ears prick up!

sorry for rambling! lol

[51m0n]

Of course you carry a certain amount of 'your' tone around with you, its you hitting the strings, where on the string, how hard you pluck/thump/pop how soft the pad of your finger is, the exact direction of your pluck relative to the string, the amount you dampen the note with left (and right hands), these all directly relate to the envelope of the sound.

As I said before the timbre of a note is dependant broadly speaking on two things, the ratio of different harmonics and the envelope.

How you play the instrument has a massive bearing on the envelope, and the envelope of each harmonic may be changed different amounts with different playing. This can be at an incredibly 'micro' level, but the overall effect is that we carry a personalised aspect to our sound with us wherever we go.

Couple that with note choice, familiar patterns, stylistic leanings etc etc and its easy to see why there is a perception that people sound the same on any instrument.

They dont, but you can see why they sound similar. In fact virtually any two basses you pick up will sound different, you may struggle to hear the differences, or recognise them, but they will sound different. Therefore one may be a bit closer to the tone in your head than another.....

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1064227' date='Dec 19 2010, 05:56 PM']I do want to learn and I really don't want to win anything.
I have played the same bass for over 30 years and always been happy with the tone and I still sound like me on any other bass, but I only [b]really[/b] get into playing on my old bass because I can't get the same tone on anything else.
Now I'm finding my old bass too heavy and I want a lighter one, but I can't find one with the same tone.
Should I stop looking and learn to love a new tone?[/quote]
I would consider that maybe there is another bass that sounds like yours. Once you hold and see a bass you opinion of the tone has been prejudiced. Or work on the skills needed to control tone.

What is this one of a kind bass you have?

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='Mog' post='1064410' date='Dec 20 2010, 03:24 AM']Cool, so are you just pointing that out or what? I dont get what I'm supposed to take from the post.[/quote]
Take whatever you want, Marcus was mentioned as someone who spent years honing his tone and I thought I'd just share the truth from his own mouth.

[Johngh]

Thinking you have "your tone" coming out of the PA at a gig is one thing, the actual tone you have when the muppet on the house mixing desk has finished mushing it about will be something different. If he thinks you should sound like Lemmy, then Lemmy it will be regardless if you think it should be pure Marcus.

I was in a Beautiful South tribute band once. At one gig the house sound engineer had the drums sounding like an ACDC tribute. The look on the drummers face was pure magic, it was hilarious.

[redstriper]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1066399' date='Dec 22 2010, 07:30 AM']I would consider that maybe there is another bass that sounds like yours. Once you hold and see a bass you opinion of the tone has been prejudiced. Or work on the skills needed to control tone.

What is this one of a kind bass you have?[/quote]

Thanks for your response, I appreciate your wisdom and it is helping with my rehabilitation
I have a 'customised' 1963 Fender jazz bass, it had a new maple body and fingerboard fitted in 1978, which brings the weight to 10.5 pounds.
It's been fine for me until I got a bad back and find it too heavy on long gigs.
In the past year I've been looking at new basses and none of them seem to have the tone of my old bass, although they are often much nicer to play.
A big part of the problem is that they are usually strung with roundwounds and I have only ever used flats, so I find them over toppy and lacking in depth.
It's hard to see beyond the shop set up and it's not until I've bought the bass and got it home, that I find out if it has 'my' tone.
I play fingerstyle, mostly over the neck with just the front pick up and the tone rolled off.
I bought 3 new basses this year, (all cheap - I've never spent more than £200 on a bass) and sold them all on because I couldn't get 'my' tone.
I've also borrowed and played a lot of basses this year and they all sound 'wrong' compared to my old beast.
I have now become over fussy about tone and I am very 'into' the sound of my old bass.

In breaking news, this changed a few days ago when I played a MIM Fender jazz at a friend's house.
It was beautifully set up with flats and a low action and it wasn't too heavy, it was the closest in tone to my old bass that I have found.
It isn't for sale, but my friend said he can set up almost any Fender or Squier in the same way and I have decided to look for the lightest jazz I can find.

There are always a few available on this forum, but I'm wary of buying blind and there's too much choice - it was so much easier 35 years ago !

[Truckstop]

So, you had a '63 Jazz, then changed the body and the fingerboard in '78? Isn't that a bit like that bit in Only Fools and Horses with Triggers broom?

Anyway, personally when it comes to 'tone', I prefer to let the bass do the talking. Yes, I have a particulat playing style and there are certain runs and certain note patterns I like to use, but tone-wise, I let the bass osrt it out for me. The Fender's very bass heavy and is good for chugging rock and when I mute it, it's fairly decent at a classice motown-y sound. The Washburn though is active and is remarkably articulate with many tonal possibilities. If i'm slap happy, I'll cut the bass and boost the middle. If I'm playing along to Rush, I'll cut the bass altogether! If I'm playing along to Korn, I'll max the bass and treble and cut the middle.

It all depends on what you feel at the time. I couldnt bear if I played using the same sound for the rest of my life!

Truckstop

Edited December 22, 2010 by Truckstop

[Telebass]

[quote name='TimR' post='1062730' date='Dec 18 2010, 06:24 PM']There are things we know about human biology and psyche.

We know that people see colours differently, people appreciate different paintings and women can discriminate more colours than men, some people are colour blind.

We know people like different foods and have different tastes, some can stand very hot chillies others only like beef and Yorkshire pudding.

We also know that people hear differently, some people have different levels of deafness, we all like different tunes, some people have perfect pitch and others are tone deaf. Women listen to the words/singer, men listen to the music.

Drummers listen to the drums, bassists listen to the bass, the best musicians can hear the whole band at once.

So why the obsession with 'my tone'? You are the only one who hears it that way. You can't describe it in words to a sound-man. No measuring equipment in the world can measure it to reproduce it. The environment plays a huge part in its reproduction so it doesn't matter how much you spend on your gear when you walk into that dodgy pub with the low beams it just won't work.

Buy something that sounds good and concentrate on the notes.

Or am I alone here.[/quote]

Nope. Bang on assessment. I play what sounds good to me, and what I'm comfortable with. Whether or not anyone else thinks it sounds OK. If there was a truly objective way to do this, taking all variables into account, we'd all be playing the same rig..

[redstriper]

[quote name='Truckstop' post='1066779' date='Dec 22 2010, 01:55 PM']So, you had a '63 Jazz, then changed the body and the fingerboard in '78? Isn't that a bit like that bit in Only Fools and Horses with Triggers broom?


Truckstop[/quote]
I am not familiar with Triggers broom, but thanks for the analogy.
Your analysis is incorrect though - I never said that I changed anything on the bass.
It is exactly as it was when I bought it in 1980, I didn't buy it as an investment and I have played countless gigs with it.
The previous owner changed the body and board because the originals were so badly burnt by the first owner who often set fire to it as part of his stage show.

[lowdown]

[quote name='redstriper' post='1066888' date='Dec 22 2010, 03:40 PM']The previous owner changed the body and board because the originals were so badly burnt by the first owner who often set fire to it as part of his stage show.[/quote]

Now that does sound like Triggers Broom - with him playing it.



Garry