Playing Old Basslines Down the Octave on 5 String

[Mykesbass]

Got an old bass line that is in G and uses the root - V pattern. To do this it is played up the octave as obviously, when the track was recorded there wasn't the option of a low D. What would others do - play it authentically, going up into the guitar registar, or play it down the octave?

Thanks,
Mike

[acidbass]

I generally find that when playing covers on a 5 string bass, you can get away with substituting the low notes down as far as D, but any lower and I think your average music listener will subconsciously notice the difference as it is LOW!

[fatback]

Interesting topic.

Our singer loves singing in G and i always wonder whether i should get a fiver for the sake of the low D. But then i ask meself the same question as you about covering old stuff.

Even with originals, I wonder if low V is maybe too ponderous. But then i think, down = good, right?

I too would like to hear what folks think about this.

[Count Bassy]

The fact that you ask the question implies that your not trying to repoduce the original exactly, so I'd do what ever feels and sounds right to you, even if that means going up at one place and down at another.

[endorka]

From an arrangement / orchestration point of view, the answer is usually "no".

The reason is that when playing notes that low, you usually need another instrument to be playing the same note an octave higher. This preserves the structure of the harmonic series in the voicing of the chord at that particular moment; if you don't, then the bass note can sound "detached", and as acidbass points out, this is quite noticeable.

So, if you are playing only with a guitarist in standard tuning, you should never play anything below your E string, as it will definitely be more than an octave away from what the guitarist is playing. If there is a keyboard player then it may be possible - check the lowest note they are playing at that point and see.

Of course there are exceptions to the above, but they tend to be for special effects.

These notes really are incredibly low, but because they are not usually amplified properly most people do not realise just how low they are. The low B, when amplified properly, is similar to the low notes on the pedals of a church organ.

Jennifer

[mcgraham]

To the OP, I feel it depends. G (on E string) to D (on A string) has a very different feel to G (on E string) to D (on B string) just because of the different in pitches. I find moving up a fifth rather has a greater level of intensity and 'upward' movement than down a fourth, which to me implies a more relaxed feel and less movement.

Re: endorka -

[quote]So, if you are playing only with a guitarist in standard tuning, you should [b]never[/b] play anything below your E string,[/quote]

Never? Really? I can see your reasoning and agree with most of it, but surely you don't mean 'never'... I don't generally use notes below my low E because I don't hear music that way. But there are some songs I that I can hear lower notes will fit better than notes just an octave below (even with just one guitar in standard tuning accompanying).

[Mykesbass]

OK, I'll give the specific song that prompted theis - Bob Dylan's Tom Thumb Blues - the bass starts of on G on the E string in the intro but then goes up the octave in the body of the song so that the low V can be played - thus playing G in the same octave as the guitarist, although the D is obviously lower. From this I have the sneaking feeling, if a 5th string was available, Harvey Brooks have used it.

This also sort of agrees with Jennifer's post regarding the arrangement.

Thanks for the replies.
Mike

[Doddy]

[quote name='endorka' post='1064234' date='Dec 20 2010, 02:08 AM']So, if you are playing only with a guitarist in standard tuning, you should never play anything below your E string, as it will definitely be more than an octave away from what the guitarist is playing. If there is a keyboard player then it may be possible - check the lowest note they are playing at that point and see.[/quote]

I partly agree with this. I've seen a load of bands where the bass player has camped out on the low B,and when the guitarist is soloing there is a sonic space of two or three octaves and the whole thing sounds really empty.
I think the problem is that a lot of players don't really know how to use the added range. They play low all the time,thinking that it adds weight or makes it heavy,and many times it has the opposite effect

[endorka]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='1064247' date='Dec 20 2010, 07:15 AM']Never? Really? I can see your reasoning and agree with most of it, but surely you don't mean 'never'... I don't generally use notes below my low E because I don't hear music that way. But there are some songs I that I can hear lower notes will fit better than notes just an octave below (even with just one guitar in standard tuning accompanying).[/quote]

:-)

Not quite never, for example, if the bass & drums are the only instruments playing at a certain point, there is no reason why you should not. Or maybe you want the bass line to sound detached. These are the aforementioned exceptions of "special effects", as my old orchestration tutor used to refer to them :-)

He actually took this further, as he would only write basslines on the 'E' string, which he considered very low, if there was another instrument doubling the entire line an octave higher. Good examples of this are low hits & pedal notes in big swing band arrangements, with trombones and/or baritone sax doubling them an octave up.

A great deal of music from the 60s/70s is like this - many of the basslines are in the mid register of the instrument. Notable example: "Son Of A Preacher Man" avoiding the low "E".

An interesting aspect of this is that I arrived at this conclusion in practice before I was aware of any theory covering it. Because most bass amplification does not reproduce the fundamental frequency of notes on the E and B strings, most players are unaware of how deep these notes actually are, until they hear them played back through a really good sound system, at which point it becomes obvious why you shouldn't have used them.

It happened to me...

Jennifer

[peted]

It's not 5 string specific, but I think it's still on topic:

My band are learning Jailbreak by Thin Lizzy and I've noticed that the original track is tuned down a semi-tone and played in Eb. The bass part though seems to be in concert pitch and played up around frets 4-7 in the same octave as the guitars.

As we're playing it all in concert pitch I'm playing it on open strings down an octave from the original bassline. I don't think anyone except for me has noticed that I'm playing it differently.

[endorka]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1064351' date='Dec 20 2010, 10:39 AM']I partly agree with this. I've seen a load of bands where the bass player has camped out on the low B,and when the guitarist is soloing there is a sonic space of two or three octaves and the whole thing sounds really empty.
I think the problem is that a lot of players don't really know how to use the added range. They play low all the time,thinking that it adds weight or makes it heavy,and many times it has the opposite effect[/quote]

Indeed. In cases where one has limited instrumentation, such as no rhythm guitar, I find that it can pay to arrange parts in a similar method to that of a string quartet, which often presents similar challenges. In this case, think of the bass guitar as similar to a cello in terms of range; the lowest note would be the C on the A string.

It's a proven method that has worked for centuries, and the Bartok string quartets are pretty damn heavy :-)

Jennifer

Edited December 20, 2010 by endorka

[mcgraham]

Thanks for the clarification I agree.

[Happy Jack]

I play a 5-string in two covers bands because the singers' ranges frequently require songs to be dropped to a more comfortable key. Commonest is dropping from C or D down to G or A.

In that situation, I can just play the original bassline but down a string and using the B-string doesn't sound odd or isolated.

Since I'm playing a 5-string anyway, I then have the option to do what Myke is talking about. What I find is that I frequently use the low D or low C as a passing note to fill out the sound (especially in the 3-piece) but I only make ostentatious use of the B-string at certain key moments - it's particularly effective when the very last note of a song is a B or C.

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='peted' post='1064413' date='Dec 20 2010, 11:26 AM']As we're playing it all in concert pitch I'm playing it on open strings down an octave from the original bassline. I don't think anyone except for me has noticed that I'm playing it differently.[/quote]

Yes, still slightly off topic (but hey, it was my thread ) there is a lot of that sort of thing like the band stopping because you're not playing because you're not supposed to be, but they don't know!

[arthurhenry]

No one's said it yet, but what's to stop you playing both the original and lower octaves? For example, if I'm riding along on a 5th fret D, it's nice to punctuate it with some low Ds (Hipshot on a 4 string, I should add) or blur the two together.

[fatback]

Interesting stuff. I feel less and less like i need a fiver.

It's like I've just made money.

Edited December 20, 2010 by fatback

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='arthurhenry' post='1064644' date='Dec 20 2010, 02:05 PM']No one's said it yet, but what's to stop you playing both the original and lower octaves?[/quote]

Erm ... I did.

Just ignore me.

See if I care.

[Clarky]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='1064690' date='Dec 20 2010, 02:55 PM']Erm ... I did.

Just ignore me.

See if I care.[/quote]
Did someone say something?

[attachment=66838:14tumbleweed.jpg]

[arthurhenry]

[quote name='Happy Jack' post='1064690' date='Dec 20 2010, 02:55 PM']Erm ... I did.

Just ignore me.

See if I care.[/quote]

Sorry, my fault, hope I didn't make you sad Jack...

[krispn]

OK so maybe not an exact answer to the OP question but instead of viewing the 5 string like a 4+1 as some people have called it (not in this thread I hasten to add) and having recently started playing a 5 string I've noticed the benefit of using the B string with fretted notes and have basically restructured how Im playing the bands songs.

The original bass player in my current band used a 5 while I was always played a 4 and I now notice parts of the songs sounding more 'full' with the 5. Im playing along with 2 guitars and piano and 4 part harmony at some points!!. To have that space and chance to punctuate where the piano and guitars are covering a few octaves plus vocals I can nip in and out of the lower notes. Its great when done tastefully and works for the song and Im trying to be as tasteful as i can

It took me a while to get comfortable on the 5 and it wasn't until i basically 'relearned' the songs by changing the fingering to suit the low B and incorporate more fretted notes down there that it made sense. I guess my point is the by incorporating notes on the low B string's to enhance a part or section might add the relevant 'colour' to the tune - I have certainly found some one of our songs in particular where I thought great I can throw in a nice low C just didnt work for all the reasons that have been very eloquently discussed above.

My 2 cents is try it and you'll know if it's gonna work and forgive the ramble

[lowdown]

[quote name='endorka' post='1064234' date='Dec 20 2010, 02:08 AM']From an arrangement / orchestration point of view, the answer is usually "no".
The reason is that when playing notes that low, you usually need another instrument to be playing the same note an octave higher. This preserves the structure of the harmonic series in the voicing of the chord at that particular moment; if you don't, then the bass note can sound "detached", and as acidbass points out, this is quite noticeable.

Jennifer[/quote]


This for me really - unless the tune you are playing has had the key changed for what ever the reason [usually for vocal range]
IE dropped down and you still want to keep the original chord/inversion voicing.


Garry

[51m0n]

[quote name='endorka' post='1064376' date='Dec 20 2010, 10:54 AM']:-)

Not quite never, for example, if the bass & drums are the only instruments playing at a certain point, there is no reason why you should not. Or maybe you want the bass line to sound detached. These are the aforementioned exceptions of "special effects", as my old orchestration tutor used to refer to them :-)

He actually took this further, as he would only write basslines on the 'E' string, which he considered very low, if there was another instrument doubling the entire line an octave higher. Good examples of this are low hits & pedal notes in big swing band arrangements, with trombones and/or baritone sax doubling them an octave up.

A great deal of music from the 60s/70s is like this - many of the basslines are in the mid register of the instrument. Notable example: "Son Of A Preacher Man" avoiding the low "E".

An interesting aspect of this is that I arrived at this conclusion in practice before I was aware of any theory covering it. Because most bass amplification does not reproduce the fundamental frequency of notes on the E and B strings, most players are unaware of how deep these notes actually are, until they hear them played back through a really good sound system, at which point it becomes obvious why you shouldn't have used them.

It happened to me...

Jennifer[/quote]

I'm not entirely convinced by this argument.

The 5 string bass doesnt produce much fundamental in the notes below E, you're right, and in fact it produces less fundamental generally than the E string does, but the E string suffer s from this too, purely since they are just a bit too short for that job. What they do produce is a lot of 2nd harmonic, which is an octave higher than the fundamental, as well as some fundamental. Almost no bass cabs will reproduce the fundamental at the same level as the second harmonic (Acme's and possibly the Barefaced Big One being exceptions to some degree IMO) either, since its not really necessary.

So when you hear these notes from a bass guitar they are heavily influenced by the note an octave up (as a harmonic within the overall sound), since that is all the instrument is capable of producing.

If it isnt really there in the original signal then you cant reproduce through any sound system, however the preponderance of live engineers to over eq the bass to make it sound 'big' (read woolly like a mammoth with the definition of a blancmange) tends to lift the fuidamental significantly.

For the sake of clarity:-

[codebox]
Note Frequency 2nd Harmonic
B0 30.87 B1 61.74
C1 32.70 C2 65.41
Db1 34.65 Db2 69.30
D1 36.71 D2 73.42
Eb1 38.89 Eb2 77.78
E1 41.20 E2 82.41
[/codebox]

How many on here hear anything much useful happen when they boost down at 40Hz?

How many of you would consider boosting down there, really?

How many boost around 70 to 100 Hz instead?

Thats because the majority of what we perceive from a bass guitar is NOT fundamental, its not the amps, they would go down well below this if necessary (most have HiPass circuitry to prevent wasted energy amplifying nothing useful), the cabs are built to produce what basses produce best, they are tailored to the instrument. The instrumetn just doesnt do much down there. If it did it would sound more like a big pipe on a church organ!

Big PA subs claim to go down to 40Hz, but many of them are waaaay off flat by then too. So they need plenty of eqing to get them level before you begin.

Guitars on the other hand can also get eq'ed way down around 80-100Hz, in some genres lower.

Orchestration is really important, but in putting the bass waaay down there you gain a massive amount of space for vocals, drums, guitars, synths, horns etc, whilst filling out the bottom. Tic-tac guitar (ie guitar doubling the bass an octave higher) went out of fashion (except in some genres like country) in the 60's, since electric bass made the pitch so much ewasier to hear than on a db recorded at the back of the room, and with all due respect your orchestration teacher clearly never caught up . Electric bass has become the single hardest stringed instrument to fit into a mix, on account of its vastly extended (upward and downward) frequency range since the 60's. It is all to easy for bass to get in the way from 70Hz right through to 4KHz, not utilising the 5th string in places to help keep it out of the way is just daft. Conversely if you stay in the mid range of the instrument, some thing done in the 60s to get it heard at all due t the poor quality of reproduction systems and low power amps for live, youseriously risk cluttering up the mix and stealing limelight from the singer, which the punters wont thank you for (and neither will the singer).

I guess I'm saying it need not be a special effect to go that low these days, it isnt always the right thing to do either, but I wouldnt say that you shouldnt consider it, especially with a busy sounding band, or if the genre you play in demands it.

I think that with only the drums and bass playing that would be the least likely time I'd feel like going down there, after all you need to make sure you are heard clearly as well as felt, and the punters will struggle to make out what you are doing so well the lower you go....

[martindupras]

I thought I'd chip in with my personal humble opinion.

I play 5-strings exclusively these days. I think of the 5-string as my instrument, I don't think of the 5-string as a 4-string with extra features.

For a start, I avoid using open positions as much as possible (it's a matter of taste: I feel that open-string notes jump out, and I prefer a more even tone.) The 5-string allows me to avoid open strings if I choose to.

I doubt that my approach is unique, but my way of seeing the instrument is to take the 5th fret on the B string as equivalent to the open E on a 4-string, and my fingerings derive from there. That means that I usually play higher up on the neck but on lower strings a lot of the time, and that I can extend either way from this 'default' position, so to speak. I feel also that over the course of a 2-hour gig it puts less stress on my arms (it's a more relaxed position for me.)

Having said that, I use the whole neck. If we were talking about a piano, no one would make a statement such as "you should never play below E1" (or whatever.) Some people do, however, enjoy a good debate whether it's better to have a Bösendorfer Imperial with 97 keys or a Steinway with the standard 88.

I take the view that one should play what sounds good and is appropriate to the context.

- martin

[Count Bassy]

[quote]No one's said it yet, but what's to stop you playing both the original and lower octaves?[/quote]


[quote name='Happy Jack' post='1064690' date='Dec 20 2010, 02:55 PM']Erm ... I did.

Just ignore me.

See if I care.[/quote]


I said it too - post 4


Edited to add:

Having read all the theoretical arguments above I'd just like to reiterate (and re-phrase) my original comment.
'Try it and your ears will tell you if it works or not' - and hopefully your audience will agree with you!

IMO there are no rules in music - if it sounds OK it is OK.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Count Bassy

[fatback]

@ 51m0n

Is the contribution of neck length to the strength of the fundamental why double bass sounds the way it does?