If you read 1 thing today, please let it be this...

[Cat Burrito]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1065035' date='Dec 20 2010, 08:08 PM']Time spent out in the real world gigging & meeting other musicians [i]GREATER THAN[/i] Time spent in bedroom widdling over chord changes [i]EQUALS[/i] success

IMO.[/quote]
Oh yes +1000

[JakeBrownBass]

[quote name='BurritoBass' post='1065187' date='Dec 20 2010, 09:44 PM']Oh yes +1000[/quote]

To reiterate this point, as much as i say playing with others is massively important, make sure your playing with the right people.

[Vibrating G String]

My thoughts... try to be a musician who plays bass and not a bass player. So many bass players focus on bass above all else and I think that's one reason why so many suck at it. Try to get some time in on piano and drums, that can make things much clearer than only playing bass can. Avoid elitism traps like stereotyping drummers as stupid and calling guitar players guitards, leave that to the insecure losers & victims. Learn many styles of music even if you have no interest in them personally. Learning a Chinese folk song and a Texas Swing tune or whatever can expand your mind more than shedding another 50 rock tunes.

And have a life! No matter how good your chops are and how quickly you can harmonize all the modes of the melodic minor scale no one will want to listen to you if you are a boring singularly obsessed person.

Specifically for bass I think it's important to be comfortable playing songs very humbly and not worrying if your bassline is cool enough or shows your skills. If you can be happy disappearing in the background and making a singer sound good you'll work more than any solo monster.

I also like the concept of separating your personal art from what you play with others or play professionally. Instead of thinking of all music as a singular thing. Sometimes you solo over jazz charts, others you play 12 bar blues in the same key without fills for a night. A lot of musicians fall into the trap of letting insecurity make them try to show their full ability in every tune (flamenco slapping every solo for example).

Will Lee does a lot of commercial jingles as a singer. In an interview he said while on the gig he thinks of that song about new and improved shampoo as the coolest thing he's ever heard and when the gig is over he just forgets it and moves on. Having that kind of control over your ego can make you very popular as a sideman.

And don't forget to learn a non musical skill that can make you money so you can eat

[Doddy]

Can I just make a little comment? In 3 posts,there is reference to being 'grade whatever standard'. I'm sorry,but no. If you have the grade then great-otherwise,you're not.

Now to the OP..... It's great that you are doing stuff at school and that people are saying how good you are. Now,you need to put your name about and get your ass kicked-don't worry,it happens to everyone. Go out and introduce yourself to other musicians,be it in music shops or at jams or gigs or whatever.Some may call you,and then you have to nail the job....which won't always happen. It's very easy to get comfortable and cocky when you are playing with mates,but if you are as serious as you say,you need to play with experienced players who won't always go easy on you because you are young. It happened to me,and it made me a better player.
I know,I'm sounding a bit harsh,but you come across as having typical teenage brashness,which although it has it's place right now,it will come as a huge culture shock if you get out into the music world beyond your school.

[EdwardHimself]

I know this has probably been said but I think you're probably doing yourself an injustice by expecting yourself to be a really amazing player at an early stage. It's the same thing with one of my friends. In bass day in Manchester he literally asked me why he wasn't as good as Billy Sheehan. He's been playing for 1 and a half years...
Becoming a great player takes years of practice. You can go at practicing as much as you want and getting into it but you really just need to accept that you're not going to be the greatest player on the planet at the stage you're at now. Try not to pressure yourself and instead just keep on with your practicing but try to ENJOY it. After all there is no point in being a musician if you don't enjoy it.

[3V17C]

they have a jazz club here in Lowestoft every month so not far from you, and the next one may be of interest as its a Charles Mingus evening:
[url="http://www.milestonesjazzclub.co.uk/"]http://www.milestonesjazzclub.co.uk/[/url]


peace


c

[Chris2112]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1065242' date='Dec 20 2010, 10:38 PM']And don't forget to learn a non musical skill that can make you money so you can eat [/quote]


This is the most important thing. Everyone at 15 would have loved to play music for a living, probably only Hadrien Feraud did! Make sure you've got real skills so you can get a real job at the end of school, and think twice before going into music as a higher education choice. After all, the days of there being a new Anthony Jackson are long gone!

[mgibson]

[u][i][b]Thank you[/b] [/i][/u]to all of you who replyed, its clear to me that there are some reacurent themes knocking around on here and I will take this to heart. Quick question: does anyone have any suggestions about stuff to transcribe?, 'cause I've done a bit but not loads and I think staring off on something like Birdland, might be a tad ambitious.

[Faithless]

I'm seeing a lot of advices about "gettin' out and playing > practising"..

Now, while I feel what everyone's saying about it, I'd really advise these guys and the OP - don't underrate [i]practice[/i].

I tend to go to jam sessions from time to time (to watch, not to play - I don't feel like being ready enough to blow on Impressions or whatever yet..), and it's kinda sad to see young students, who go out and try to blow on every tune (even on those that they don't really know well) that comes next, let it be Autumn Leaves and Giant Steps later, and.. know what? they sound bad.

And I can [u]guarantee[/u], that is because they've been told the same thing as OP did several times here.
You can play your ass off publicly, but [i]only [/i]this won't make you a good musician.
You also have to take your time shedding as much, really spending time with your instrument(s), basically, till your nose bleeds.

Playing live, with other musos, in some way, is a situation, where you show how you did your 'homework' (that is practising), if you did it at all..

The ones that are, most often, the first to be 'ready to go out and play' are drummers. But, take it easy - they don't have to learn every tune in 12 keys or transcribe Charlie Parker, if that makes sense..

Edited December 21, 2010 by Faithless

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Faithless' post='1065419' date='Dec 21 2010, 09:48 AM']I'm seeing a lot of advices about "gettin' out and playing > practising"..

Now, while I feel what everyone's saying about it, I'd really advise these guys and the OP - don't underrate [i]practice[/i].[/quote]
I don't think anyone here is - I certainly wasn't.

[Faithless]

I know, all I'm trying to do is giving some food for thought for the OP (and for others, maybe) - basically, there are too many young players that take your advice in wrong way, WoT.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Faithless

[ThomBassmonkey]

It's worth remembering that when you're young and playing music, you're being compared to other young people. As soon as you leave school and get into your 20s, that comes to a rather sudden stop.

I can tell you myself, I've taught young kids (under 10) that are brilliant, but if an 18 year old was playing like that, I wouldn't rate them.

Until you have the grades, then being equivalent is hazy at best, I've been told (by people in the know) that I'd be able to get grade 8 bass with a bit of brushing up, but I'm sure that's not true. People tend to get a bit excited when they see some raw talent (as yours will be after playing for a year at the age of 15) and blurt stuff out that is exaggurated. I don't want to be negative, but if you keep sky high, the fall's gonna hurt when you're going for the same jobs as people who've been playing bass professionally for 20 years.

[charic]

Only thing I have to add is play outside of your comfort zone. If you enjoy Jazz then try funk, rock, metal, classical etc...

Otherwise best of luck in your endeavours

[jonunders]

I have been playing bass for a year, I am progressing but get frustrated at what I can't do. The thing is i'm enjoying myself, we have formed a band at work
and my playing has improved no end. Just to say I am 50 so you have plenty of time.
Jon

[tauzero]

Playing with others, as has been said. And try to play with as wide a variety of bands as you can - I started playing with a ceilidh band a little while ago and it's actually taught me quite a bit. I've been playing for 35 years but still learning.

Walking bass lines - there's rules for constructing them, eg. [url="http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-591737.html"]here[/url], which should help, but the key point is to listen to them.

[Chris2112]

[quote name='mgibson' post='1065418' date='Dec 21 2010, 09:46 AM'][u][i][b]Thank you[/b] [/i][/u]to all of you who replyed, its clear to me that there are some reacurent themes knocking around on here and I will take this to heart. Quick question: does anyone have any suggestions about stuff to transcribe?, 'cause I've done a bit but not loads and I think staring off on something like Birdland, might be a tad ambitious. [/quote]


That live version of Birdland from Germany would be a good one to start. It's not too difficult a tune, and that particular version has a nice swinging feel. Even better is the original with it's stark, upright beat. But starting simple and not working beyond your ability is key, because if you try and transcribe Stuart Hamm's "Country Music" as a first go you'll just end up frustrating and playing on the Xbox again!

[cetera]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1065035' date='Dec 20 2010, 08:08 PM']Time spent out in the real world gigging & meeting other musicians [i]GREATER THAN[/i] Time spent in bedroom widdling over chord changes [i]EQUALS[/i] success

IMO.[/quote]

BIG +1

It's all about playing as many different styles with as many different groups of musicians as you can. Being a 'flashy' or 'technique-heavy' player is great, but ultimately it's not as valuable as being personable, adaptable, solid and fun to play with. Concentrate on grooves, locking in with drummers and supporting the music (whatever style it may be). Should you get a chance to solo/be more prominent then the exra technique could be handy but it shouldn't be the most important thing.

Also, play along to any and all music you hear on the radio, in your CD/download collection and in your parents' collection....
Nothing is too uncool or too old to learn something from...

Most importantly though... just ENJOY playing your instrument and the feeling when the group you play with really locks in and ROCKS!

[Bilbo]

[quote name='mgibson' post='1065018' date='Dec 20 2010, 08:01 PM']Um, hello, this is hard for me to really get across well. I'm 15 and reliseing that playing bass is really what I want to do in life. I've been playing for less than three years but I'm like above grade 6 standard, I read sheet music (three days locked in my room), I'm playing in a band (how many 15 year old boys don't?), I'm playing in a jazz band (accredited by local big boys as the best ever school band they have heard), I'm playing scores for big bands and in a school production of Bugsy Malone and taking as many chance as I possibly can (which ain't many in rural Norfolk ). Oh I'm also taking theory lessons and DB lessons. (Blowing my own trumpet, described as 'highly gifted' and the 'best bass student I've taught')

So anyway, it's really frustraiting 'cause I see all this insane bas players, more than a few of them preside on this here sight, and I go to myself how do they get there, I woodshed day in day out I listen to whatever the hell I can lay my hands on... So yeh, what I'm trying to say is that I want your help. I want to know where you learnt stuff like how to play over chord changes, how to construct walking bass lines, what to listen to and how to survive in the music industry. (Also if you live/have knoledge of the Norwich/South Norfolk music scene where I could get gigs or go see decent jazz stuff etc.)

I know I'm over stepping the line putting all this stuff up here and expecting you to reply, but I'm coming through in the generation of tab and eighth notes, not transcribing and quavers, so please help, cause I want to be part of the future of bass and I don't want that future to be bland, dire infact, because so many other elements of music nowadays are. Thanks.[/quote]

Some questions for you, m.

You say you read sheet music and then allude to the fact that you spent three days locked in a room to learn how? Is that correct? If that is so, I think you need to get some sort of independent assessment of your reading skills as I suspect you have not got it nailed to the standards required by professional musical directors - can you read sixteenth notes in F sharp when the time signatures are changing from 4/4 to 5/4/to 5/8 to 7/4? Grade six reading is not yet to a professional standard.

You are asking questions like 'how did you learn to play over changes' whilst also saying you are playing big band scores and are in a jazz band accredited by local big boys as the best ever school band they have heard? You also mention having theory and double bass lessons. If you are having lessons, why are you not learning this stuff already?

To be fair, what I am sensing here is a lack of patience and an understandable desire to want to get it all together NOW!!! But a lot of this stuff is stuff that it takes time to absorb and to internalise. If you want to learn about walking bass lines, get a load of walking bass line charts (I have posted several here under the Theory and Technique section, as have others) and play them again and again. Get a book on walking basslines (there are loads) and [i]spend time [/i] with them. Soloing over changes is exactly the same; start with playing over one chord then add another and so on. All of this is stuff your teacher should get to eventually but, if s/he doesn't think you are ready for it yet, s/he will be giving you more basic stuff to deal with. Don't rush it and make the mistakes we all make of missing massive chunks out and having to go back again and again as we get older to plug the gaps we have left in our knowledge. There is only one way to get good; hours and hours and hours of tedious repetition.

As for playing opportunities, you are 15 so some are closed to you (there is a jazz jam session at The Blueberry in Norwich on Monday nights but, as it is a pub, you might not be allowed in). Talk to your teachers, your friends and look in the local 'what's On' magazines etc. There are plenty of venues around Norwich to see jazz at but some of them are pubs where you won't be allowed in. Keep a look out for stuff in the theatres around there (there are several) and look out for jazz workshops (there are some in Bury St Edmunds soon but that may be a bit far). Its all out there for you but you can't absorb it all instantly. Some of it takes time to develop and rushing it is not in your best interests. You have the luxury of youth and time. Use it to your advantage and soak this stuff up at a sensible pace.

[OliverBlackman]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1065258' date='Dec 20 2010, 10:54 PM']I know,I'm sounding a bit harsh,but you come across as having typical teenage brashness,which although it has it's place right now,it will come as a huge culture shock if you get out into the music world beyond your school.[/quote]

This is very very very true. I moved to Guildford thinking i was pretty much the bees knees, i too had completed grade 5, been told im one of the better students and was the only person in my town who understood what a bass was. I was wrong, i knew nothing and i was made to feel it pretty quickly.

[Bilbo]

Teachers are sometimes known to 'big up' their students as it encourages them to keep going and, in turn, their parents to keep paying for lessons. I know that is a slightly cynical view but it is important to acknowledge that compliments about your playing are not always offered critically but can from a misplaced sense of loyalty or the desire the be positive. When you enter a professional world, this stops and you are judged on your abilities alone. This can come as a shock to anyone who has no real sense of their core skills.

It is also important to note that some people who compliment you on your skills (and this applies no less to other musicians/teachers than it does to lay people) wouldn't know a good player from a bad one if their lives depended on it.

[Mog]

[quote name='mgibson' post='1065018' date='Dec 20 2010, 08:01 PM']Um, hello, this is hard for me to really get across well. I'm 15 and reliseing that playing bass is really what I want to do in life. I've been playing for less than three years but I'm like above grade 6 standard, I read sheet music (three days locked in my room), I'm playing in a band (how many 15 year old boys don't?), I'm playing in a jazz band (accredited by local big boys as the best ever school band they have heard), I'm playing scores for big bands and in a school production of Bugsy Malone and taking as many chance as I possibly can (which ain't many in rural Norfolk ). Oh I'm also taking theory lessons and DB lessons. (Blowing my own trumpet, described as 'highly gifted' and the 'best bass student I've taught')

So anyway, it's really frustraiting 'cause I see all this insane bas players, more than a few of them preside on this here sight, and I go to myself how do they get there, I woodshed day in day out I listen to whatever the hell I can lay my hands on... So yeh, what I'm trying to say is that I want your help. I want to know where you learnt stuff like how to play over chord changes, how to construct walking bass lines, what to listen to and how to survive in the music industry. (Also if you live/have knoledge of the Norwich/South Norfolk music scene where I could get gigs or go see decent jazz stuff etc.)

I know I'm over stepping the line putting all this stuff up here and expecting you to reply, but I'm coming through in the generation of tab and eighth notes, not transcribing and quavers, so please help, cause I want to be part of the future of bass and I don't want that future to be bland, dire infact, because so many other elements of music nowadays are. Thanks.[/quote]

3 suggestions.
1 Forget about it for a year or two because at 15 you aint going to get a serious job. Focus on getting laid more.
2 Forget about it for a year or two because at 15 you're around 30 years less experienced than most session and pit bassists. Focus on beer more.
3 Forget about it for a year or two because at 15 you still dont have any type of University/collage qualifications that will actually get you into the situation you want to be in. And when you do get it theres always someone better than you. Focus on getting a sustainable income before banking on an income from music.

And just to clarify theres nothing wrong with tab and eight notes. Statements like that just put people off giving you a job.

[JakeBrownBass]

[quote name='Mog' post='1065682' date='Dec 21 2010, 02:11 PM']3 suggestions.
1 Forget about it for a year or two because at 15 you aint going to get a serious job. Focus on getting laid more.
2 Forget about it for a year or two because at 15 you're around 30 years less experienced than most session and pit bassists. Focus on beer more.
3 Forget about it for a year or two because at 15 you still dont have any type of University/collage qualifications that will actually get you into the situation you want to be in. And when you do get it theres always someone better than you. Focus on getting a sustainable income before banking on an income from music.

And just to clarify theres nothing wrong with tab and eight notes. Statements like that just put people off giving you a job.[/quote]

1. Nonsense
2. Nonsense
3. Nonsense

Also, 8th notes and quavers are the same thing. Its just that ones used over in America & the other over here.

[Skol303]

I can't speak as a practiced musician because I ain't - I'm still very much a beginner. But I can speak as someone with first-hand experience of the music industry, having worked as a music journalist in the mid-late 90s.

Here are my top tips:

1) Music theory doesn't make girls (or boys) throw their knickers at you on stage: charisma does.

Music theory is a very useful knowledge to have, but it's not what makes truly great bassists (or musicians in general) stand out from the crowd. Of course, some musicians achieve fame because of their technical merit - people like John Myung spring to mind here - but they are a rarity (and often a bit geeky/boring, to be honest!). What makes musicians get noticed above all else is personality and charisma, and you don't get that from studying books - you get that through 'life experiences'. Luck also plays a huge factor in music industry success: the old adage of being in the right place at the right time. Unfortunately, music is one of those industries where hard-working, studious types tend to get ignored and self-promoting, charismatic dickheads tend to rise to the top. So you ideally need to be a bit of both and become a hard-working, charismatic dickhead ;-)

2) Don't give up the day job: you're going to need it.

Very few people actually make a healthy living from playing music. Yeah, I know, you're probably thinking that you're going to be one of them - but chances are you won't, and that's a cold hard fact to keep in mind (but don't let it ruin your confidence either!). The majority of gigging musicians play in bands at weekends for the fun of it, obviously with hopes and dreams in mind, but they don't often rely on gigs to pay the bills - i.e. the majority of musicians hold down day jobs. So be realistic, manage your expectation and always, always have a 'Plan B' up your sleeve in case it turns out that a career in music isn't for you. I've met plenty of aging, rockstar wannabees who still dream of getting their 'big break' in the music industry - or worse, those who have become bitter and resentful of music they once loved, because they failed to make a career out of it. Don't become one of them.

3) If you want to earn big money, pick a genre of music that attracts big crowds and sells records (ok, mp3's!)

Jazz is a hugely respected genre of music, but it's not a big seller and so competition for the top earning jobs is fierce. Be flexible, especially in the early days of your career: experiment with different genres of music, adapt to popular trends and fashions and don't fall into the trap of being "snobbish". You might become a superb jazz musician, but chances are you'll be earning a fraction of what your contemporaries in other genres are earning, especially those "doing it for the kids" (who are, let's face it, the core market for gig and record sales). So think carefully before starting that "folk-thrash" band or "country'n'bass" outfit, because you might find that your fanbase is too niche and limited to earn a living from.

4) Understand the difference between patience and stubbornness...

Chances are, your career in music will be a long, hard road without overnight success. You'll need to be very patient and motivated, but you also need to be prepared to change things if the path you're on is leading nowhere. This can be very difficult to notice at the time, as more often than not musicians get very precious of their material and aren't able to pull their heads of their backsides and see the big picture - which in most cases is an empty dancefloor, with a few of their mates shuffling around at the back. Dedication is a good thing, but stubbornness is a sure-fire recipe for going nowhere. Be honest with yourself and if the road you're on feels tired, then change direction and try something new.

5) Lastly... enjoy it!

Everyone will tell you this, but that's because it's so important. Music is a career in which you really DO need to love your job, otherwise it'll show in your performance and that's your career over and done with. Manage your expectations, set realistic goals and be cautious whenever playing music start to feel more like "work" than "play" - because that's when you're in danger of turning your great passion into a chore.

Hope that helps and good luck with it!

[Mog]

[quote name='J.R.Bass' post='1065736' date='Dec 21 2010, 03:02 PM']1. Nonsense
2. Nonsense
3. Nonsense[/quote]

How so?
What regularly gigging band is going to hire someone who cant play the gig after a certain time, cant do a share of the driving, raises insurance premiums and less face it HAS ABOUT 30 YEARS LESS EXPERIENCE THAN MOST PIT PLAYERS. Unless most pit players, session musicians etc age in dog years most I've met/know are between 30-50 and to take their jobs would require serious talent.
The guy is 15. Has been fed god knows what by a local teacher and expects to walk into a regularly paying job within the music business. Come on lad.
I didn't suggest that he should drop the bass and take up golf or anything. Each point was based on fact.
And just to be clear, if you're response is based on 'personal experience' I dont really give a poop, telling someone to get a proper steady job is not nonesense, its common sense.
Be specific, I'm in nicotine withdrawal and need a rant.

[EdwardHimself]

[quote name='Mog' post='1065789' date='Dec 21 2010, 03:39 PM']How so?
What regularly gigging band is going to hire someone who cant play the gig after a certain time, cant do a share of the driving, raises insurance premiums and less face it HAS ABOUT 30 YEARS LESS EXPERIENCE THAN MOST PIT PLAYERS. Unless most pit players, session musicians etc age in dog years most I've met/know are between 30-50 and to take their jobs would require serious talent.
The guy is 15. Has been fed god knows what by a local teacher and expects to walk into a regularly paying job within the music business. Come on lad.
I didn't suggest that he should drop the bass and take up golf or anything. Each point was based on fact.
And just to be clear, if you're response is based on 'personal experience' I dont really give a poop, telling someone to get a proper steady job is not nonesense, its common sense.
Be specific, I'm in nicotine withdrawal and need a rant.[/quote]

I wouldn't worry yourself. Mr. brown here is a prime example of what you were talking about earlier, someone who's got somewhere in his hometown, thinks he's the best in the world and needs to be put-down once or twice by a few more experienced pros...

Edited December 21, 2010 by EdwardHimself