Detuning

[thunderbird13]

I have only tuned my bass EADG but last week I was playing with guys who insisted that I tuned down a half step. I did this but as I'm not used to it I find it confusing as I have to play a fret higher than what I'm used to , so for example a G is 4th fret on the e string rather than the 3rd fret. So is there any point to it other than allowing me to play E flat. It seems a lot of effort just to get to one note, particularly when I can get to it on a 5 string ! Or is there something else which I'm ot getting . Help !

[markstuk]

Have they also changed the key of the songs by a semi-tone down as well?

Mark

[Mr. Foxen]

Guitarists do this because they heard SRV and Hendrix did it. That is pretty much the sole reason.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='thunderbird13' post='1067903' date='Dec 23 2010, 04:26 PM']I have only tuned my bass EADG but last week I was playing with guys who insisted that I tuned down a half step. I did this but as I'm not used to it I find it confusing as I have to play a fret higher than what I'm used to , so for example a G is 4th fret on the e string rather than the 3rd fret. So is there any point to it other than allowing me to play E flat. It seems a lot of effort just to get to one note, particularly when I can get to it on a 5 string ! Or is there something else which I'm ot getting . Help ![/quote]
I don't myself think people should be insisting on how you tune your bass. If the songs require a low Eb for some good reason then there are other ways of achieving it: i.e. D-A-D-G tuning or just use a drop tuner on the E string or as you say a fiver.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1067925' date='Dec 23 2010, 04:41 PM']Guitarists do this because they heard SRV and Hendrix did it. That is pretty much the sole reason.[/quote]
There's rarely a good reason - IME.

[markstuk]

I've seen it when a singer is not quite comfortable in the original key.. Also my guitarist sometimes uses a drop D tuning, but would not dream of asking me to change my tuning to suit..

Mark

[cetera]

It makes songs easier to sing and the strings a little slacker which can aid lead guitarists...

[bigjohn]

[quote name='cetera' post='1067950' date='Dec 23 2010, 04:53 PM']It makes songs easier to sing and the strings a little slacker which can aid lead guitarists...[/quote]


Yup, and also makes guitar strings less likely to snap.

Loads and loads of bands do it. Far more do it for live performance than studio work. We do it sometimes. All detune a semitone and play with usual fretting. I quite like it.

Edited December 23, 2010 by bigjohn

[Steve_nottm]

Yes, you are missing something.

by downtuning a bit, but you all play the same notes/chords as if you hadn't, then effectively you are transposing the song down a bit. normally to make it a bit easier for the singer.

Go with it, it helps them, so makes it all work better as a band and you don't have to play anything any different. it just comes out a bit lower.

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='Steve_nottm' post='1067964' date='Dec 23 2010, 05:04 PM']Yes, you are missing something.

by downtuning a bit, but you all play the same notes/chords as if you hadn't, then effectively you are transposing the song down a bit. normally to make it a bit easier for the singer.

Go with it, it helps them, so makes it all work better as a band and you don't have to play anything any different. it just comes out a bit lower.[/quote]

Thats the bit that confuses me - am I supposed to play the songs half a step down or not . I'm cmfortable enough transposing but I dont need to detune to do it TBH it was my first practice with a new band so I was quite happy to go with the flow and I didnt woant to look stupid by asking them why

[risingson]

I do it in one tune I've recorded recently because I wanted to use that low Eb extensively and the part I was playing. I could have transposed it up an octave but IMO the bass line wouldn't have occupied that space that I wanted it to in the track. The obvious solution to this is using a 5 string but a lot of people prefer to tune down, and I understand why. It will become a bit of a pain in a live setting having to have either multiple bass guitars on stage or tuning down and up between songs also.

Anyway, there are a few reasons why you'd tune down a half step., 1.) because you prefer looser tension over your strings (Pino Palladino does this because his La Bella flatwounds can be tough on his bass's neck). 2.) if you're playing with horns, bass players have been known to try and fit around tunes that are written with horn lines in mind ('Rock With You' by Michael Jackson and a lot of Stevie Wonder tracks with Bobby Watson and Nathan Watts respectively), 3.) because you need to fill out the bottom end if you're playing a lot of Eb's, and 4.) with that in mind, some players use open strings as stepping stones, having your bass tuned Eb Ab Db Gb would make it a bit easier for your bass to occupy a lower register that might otherwise not exist or be difficult in drop D.

[risingson]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1067925' date='Dec 23 2010, 04:41 PM']Guitarists do this because they heard SRV and Hendrix did it. That is pretty much the sole reason.[/quote]

Both played to suit their vocal ranges. Also SRV used notoriously heavy gauge strings. It's different why you'd want to drop tune on guitar, it creates a different feel and sound you can achieve with bends and vibrato that you simply can't do in regular tuning. There are a million and one examples of guitarists that practice(d) this type of tuning extensively.

[skankdelvar]

Assuming everyone's tuned down half a step, it's likely they're fingering exactly the same chord shapes as before. So, knowing guitarists, they'll say the song's in G because that's the "shape" they're playing. Even though it's actually in F#.

Easier to do than to explain, TBH. Basically, tune down one and pretend it's still EADG.

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1067925' date='Dec 23 2010, 04:41 PM']Guitarists do this because they heard SRV and Hendrix did it.[/quote]
As did the Beatles.

In those days, the sheet music publishers would send a vinyl record over to some old Bob who'd fire up his Dansette, listen along, light a fag and hammer it out on a piano tuned to concert. All the keys would thus be transcribed as flats or sharps, hence the 'spaghetti fingers' chord boxes in the early Beatles 'Easy Guitar' transcriptions. Which ****ed up a whole generation.

Edited December 23, 2010 by skankdelvar

[Mr. Foxen]

Every time I've done a guitar setup for someone who detunes, it has never been to suit their voice. The half step is always because some cheesy blues dude did it, and the really down was either 'because it's heavy' or 'because Metallica play in standard, so screw doing that'.

And when complicated chords "****ed up a whole generation"m do you means 'taught them to play jazz' or 'forced them to play punk'?

[risingson]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1068024' date='Dec 23 2010, 05:54 PM']Every time I've done a guitar setup for someone who detunes, it has never been to suit their voice. The half step is always because some cheesy blues dude did it, and the really down was either 'because it's heavy' or 'because Metallica play in standard, so screw doing that'.

And when complicated chords "****ed up a whole generation"m do you means 'taught them to play jazz' or 'forced them to play punk'?[/quote]

I can only speak for Hendrix and SRV. Actually, technically I can't speak for either of them as I didn't know them. Also they're both dead.

[Josh]

I play a full step down pretty much exclusively and have done for over a year or so now and really I've found it quite a sobering and educational process. It does take adjusting to and can throw other bassists and guitarists off but if you're competent with playing in a lower tuning then you should be able to make it easy for others to understand what and where you're playing.

[thodrik]

I don't really see the problem in tuning down. Even if it is just a half step, if you prefer the sound of it being a half step down, then why not? I don't like it when those that prefer 'heavier' (meaning lower/downtuned) tunings are perceived to be unable to play in standard tuning or have a working knowledge of harmony, melody and song structure. I don't think it says anything about the ability, or lack of ability, of the guitarist in question.

I used to get annoyed by the amount of guitarists who insisted on playing in drop d the whole time. The tuning often pretty much demands you also play in drop d (D A D G) rather than tune a whole step down (D G C F), as you often need the two open Ds (what I call the 'Tool effect'). Even then there were some good ones in amongst the one finger power chord wonders.

[Lozz196]

I have heard a lot from guitarists saying it sounds "heavier" and "meatier" tuning down half a step.

Whether it does or not, well I`ve never noticed.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1068024' date='Dec 23 2010, 05:54 PM']And when complicated chords "****ed up a whole generation"m do you means 'taught them to play jazz' or 'forced them to play punk'?[/quote]
I mean 20,000,000 beginner guitarists trying to play the Day Tripper riff in a closed position starting somewhere horrible. They all gave up and binned their guitars, causing a shortage which led indirectly to the whole vintage market thing. Jazz was just an unfortunate side-effect.

If anyone wants an example of 'good' downtuning, whack an acoustic 12-string down to C>C.

Chimy, woody Doom.

Edited December 23, 2010 by skankdelvar

[J3ster]

There may be some confusion here - If you and the guitarist ALL tune half a step down (which is probably for the singers range) but they are playing say a G 'look to see where they are barring the chord, I bet it is at the 3rd fret. as normal
Most bands when they de-tune do not change the chord position, so for you every note will still be played at the original position (eg; 3rd fret E string is G - 5th fret A string D so on) to be honest you should have heard if its wrong compared to what the guitarist is playing as half a step difference sounds horrible especially if for the whole song :-) but I would bet they are keeping the same positions in this case.

Edited December 23, 2010 by J3ster

[ThomBassmonkey]

Obviously if someone tunes differently to the standard, that makes them idiots to one degree or another. It's not like it's a creative art forum we're on, we should all stick to the standards. /sarcasm.

Ok, now that's out of the way:

There's loads of reasions people might want to tune differently. Vocal range, different feel of the strings, different sound they make.

Saying "why would you tune down to have that song in C?" is silly, because why would you have it in G when you could do it in E? Or F#? Or C etc etc. The bass in music is the real meat of what's going on, lots of guitarists want to tune down to tap into that a bit (though I doubt that's the reason for a semi-tone tune down) but why shouldn't they? Assuming the bass set-up is strong enough to be able to take the bass even lower.

I used to tune A-A# (6er down a tone) and I was always fine. Our rhythm guitarist played and wrote in drop D and I tuned down so I could join in with the fast open D riffs.

[thunderbird13]

[quote name='J3ster' post='1068215' date='Dec 23 2010, 08:30 PM']There may be some confusion here - If you and the guitarist ALL tune half a step down (which is probably for the singers range) but they are playing say a G 'look to see where they are barring the chord, I bet it is at the 3rd fret. as normal
Most bands when they de-tune do not change the chord position, so for you every note will still be played at the original position (eg; 3rd fret E string is G - 5th fret A string D so on) to be honest you should have heard if its wrong compared to what the guitarist is playing as half a step difference sounds horrible especially if for the whole song :-) but I would bet they are keeping the same positions in this case.[/quote]

Thats my confusion am I transposing the song or simple making the strings looser. In normal circumstances my ears would be the guide but in this case it was a casual jam where I just tried to play what I heard . They then offered me the gig and I have 30 covers to learn in the next 4 weeks. My problem is do I learn them in the key they're played on the records or do I learn them a semi tone lower. One of my (many ) weaknesses is that I can learn songs quickly but once they're learnt I find it hard to amend then in my mind .

[J3ster]

[quote name='thunderbird13' post='1068256' date='Dec 23 2010, 09:30 PM']Thats my confusion am I transposing the song or simple making the strings looser. In normal circumstances my ears would be the guide but in this case it was a casual jam where I just tried to play what I heard . They then offered me the gig and I have 30 covers to learn in the next 4 weeks. My problem is do I learn them in the key they're played on the records or do I learn them a semi tone lower. One of my (many ) weaknesses is that I can learn songs quickly but once they're learnt I find it hard to amend then in my mind .[/quote]

OK... Ask the guitarist if you can pop over and run through a couple of numbers with him to speed things up for the next rehearsal and you will then get the gist of it.. It shows eagerness and will also put you mind at rest with the tuning issue. I frequently have to learn songs on the fly and quick learning is always viewed as an asset not a weakness at all, as well as that two bands will play the same song in different keys so amending (which is really just like transposing) is also something worth practicing too!!

Best of luck with it.

Edited December 23, 2010 by J3ster

[mep]

My current band, and a previous one, detune by a half step and play the songs in the same position. Loads of bands have done it or do. As mentioned by posters on this thread most do it to help with the vocals and the guitarist. It works, go with it. GNR did it and if you have to learn any of there songs it will say tune down a half step and it will be written out as if you are in EADG.

[AttitudeCastle]

Detuning? To make you bass lower! i often play A-A# (6 string dropped a tone, like Thombassmonkey said)

On guitar dropping the E to a D (Drop d, same a D-A-D-G for those who don't get what i mean)

Makes sense as you can then play power chords and such like as a barre chord, and i genuinely think drop tuning on bass developed from the guitarists forced to play bass not having to ask and work out the "note" but instead can just see 'oh right, thickest string, fret 5'

But it also gives a different tone, like The dropped D to me sounds killer, and nothing like the 3rd fret of the B,

On the note of alternate tunings though, why is the like 7 string ERB have a similar range of the cello which has 4 strings? Surely if you tuned a bass in 5ths like a cello the range is the same? haha