Detuning

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1068238' date='Dec 23 2010, 08:59 PM']Obviously if someone tunes differently to the standard, that makes them idiots to one degree or another. It's not like it's a creative art forum we're on, we should all stick to the standards. /sarcasm.[/quote]
I can't see why tuning differently would make someone an idiot to any degree - people can tune their instrument how they like, and indeed they do. However, I can't see what's creative about a band [i]insisting[/i] (as the OP puts it) that the bassist tunes in a particular way - they are demanding he sticks to their standards.

I've played with several blues or country guitarists who used a range of different tunings - usually open tunings of one kind or another but also other non-open dropped or lifted tunings. They would commonly have several guitars, one set up for each of the different tunings. However, I've never been asked and certainly no one has [i]insisted[/i] (as the OP puts it) that I tune my bass any way other than how I want to tune. I have on occasion been asked for a low Eb or low D and have supplied it but I'd be resistant to being told what tuning to use.

Edited December 23, 2010 by EssentialTension

[thunderbird13]

Nuts - I thought I'd just practice on a 5 string tonight and give the detuning a miss. My 5 string was slightly out of tune so being lazy I just used my tuner and forgot that the thickest string on a fiver is B not E - SNAP !!!!

Wished I'd just detuned my 4 sting now

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='thunderbird13' post='1068346' date='Dec 23 2010, 11:05 PM']Nuts - I thought I'd just practice on a 5 string tonight and give the detuning a miss. My 5 string was slightly out of tune so being lazy I just used my tuner and forgot that the thickest string on a fiver is B not E - SNAP !!!!

Wished I'd just detuned my 4 sting now [/quote]
Sorry to hear that bad news but see what happens when you don't do as you're told.

[BigAlonBass]

I honestly don't see what the problem is. I work regularly with three different Bands, two of whom de-tune all the strings on their instruments by a semitone, to allow the vocalists to hit some of the more difficult notes. We all de-tune, but fret the "normal" notes.
I practise and learn any new songs by listening to C.D's at home, and have a POS old copy Bass that is tuned "normally" so I can play along with the songs I'm learning. When I go to the Rehearsal/Gig, I take the de-tuned Bass, and play the "normal" notes I have just learnt, which are the same notes as everyone else in the Band. It may sound like a G#, but we're all fretting the G. Not too annoying, unless you have Perfect Pitch!
It's not a case of "Telling you what to do", it's just the Band being helpful so that you don't have to transpose every note in every song down half a step on the fly.

[endorka]

[quote name='thunderbird13' post='1068256' date='Dec 23 2010, 09:30 PM']My problem is do I learn them in the key they're played on the records or do I learn them a semi tone lower. One of my (many ) weaknesses is that I can learn songs quickly but once they're learnt I find it hard to amend then in my mind .[/quote]

I may be misunderstanding you, but from what has been posted, the answer may be to learn them in the original key with standard tuning, which will allow you to play along with the songs on CD. Then when you play the same songs with the band, play them in exactly the same positions, but with all your strings tuned down a semitone. Thus a G will become a Gb.

If you would rather practice in the alternate tuning, programs like Transcribe will transpose songs down a semitone, or any other interval for that matter.

Jennifer

[endorka]

Sorry Big Al, looks like I just parroted your post :-)

Jennifer

[JTUK]

Play the 5... but remember if you have any changes being called you are a semi tone out.

I'd want to know why they need to do this, tbh...

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='EssentialTension' post='1068338' date='Dec 23 2010, 10:55 PM']I can't see why tuning differently would make someone an idiot to any degree - people can tune their instrument how they like, and indeed they do. However, I can't see what's creative about a band [i]insisting[/i] (as the OP puts it) that the bassist tunes in a particular way - they are demanding he sticks to their standards.[/quote]

Note the /sarcasm. There's a few people suggesting in this thread that people are just doing it for the sake of copying people like SRV (or others) and who cares, says I? People should be left to make music how they want.

Without knowing what the music's like, it's a bit tough to really comment. If I was a guitarist and I was doing a lot of open-3rd-open-5th-open etc style riffing in Eb, I'd want the bassist to be in Eb too to keep up. If there's no songs like that, then maybe the last bassist had a poor 5er or amp that couldn't handle the low frequencies and they have bad experiences of that lower string. Another thing could be that they've never worked with a bassist with a B string and don't know what it's capable of and just assume that the bass needs to be tuned down.

There's a lot of reasons that people might want a tuned down bass instead of a B string, it's impossible to say without knowing the situation. I'd be annoyed though if I was perfectly capable of playing something in standard and they forced me to tune down.

[Doddy]

[quote name='J3ster' post='1068215' date='Dec 23 2010, 08:30 PM']There may be some confusion here - If you and the guitarist ALL tune half a step down (which is probably for the singers range) but they are playing say a G 'look to see where they are barring the chord, I bet it is at the 3rd fret. as normal
Most bands when they de-tune do not change the chord position, so for you every note will still be played at the original position (eg; 3rd fret E string is G - 5th fret A string D so on) to be honest you should have heard if its wrong compared to what the guitarist is playing as half a step difference sounds horrible especially if for the whole song :-) but I would bet they are keeping the same positions in this case.[/quote]

This annoys me a lot.
If you are detuned,it is not difficult to understand that the notes have moved. I did a couple of gigs where I dropped everything a semitone,and then my whole frame of reference is shifted. I see and hear the notes in their new,'correct' positions-like G being on the forth fret,not the third-so if the guitarist says 'This one's in A',I automatically go to the actual note,not where it would be if I was in standard tuning.
You never get this with keys or horn players.

[Paul S]

[quote name='BigAlonBass' post='1068398' date='Dec 24 2010, 12:03 AM']I honestly don't see what the problem is. I work regularly with three different Bands, two of whom de-tune all the strings on their instruments by a semitone, to allow the vocalists to hit some of the more difficult notes. We all de-tune, but fret the "normal" notes.
I practise and learn any new songs by listening to C.D's at home, and have a POS old copy Bass that is tuned "normally" so I can play along with the songs I'm learning. When I go to the Rehearsal/Gig, I take the de-tuned Bass, and play the "normal" notes I have just learnt, which are the same notes as everyone else in the Band. It may sound like a G#, but we're all fretting the G. Not too annoying, unless you have Perfect Pitch!
It's not a case of "Telling you what to do", it's just the Band being helpful so that you don't have to transpose every note in every song down half a step on the fly. [/quote]

^^^^^ This

I play in two bands. For band A we all detune half a tone to help the singer, band B plays as is. I keep one bass detuned and use that for band A when we rehearse or gig, but learn and play along to the tracks in regular tuning. As I am a complete dunce, and learn simply by the relative positions of my fingers in relation to the little dot thingies, none of this complicated theory stuff gets in the way. I just pick up the instrument and make the same shapes.

[schmig]

My guitarist plays heavy 13s on his strat, tunes a semitone flat ala SRV/Hendrix as he reckons it makes the soloing a bit easier, while giving him a nasty tone.

[Norris]

We normally play a semitone down - purely to reduce the strain on the singer.

All well and good until we got a saxophonist up with us last night to play Us and Them. The guitarist decided he needed an open D string, so brought that one string back into concert pitch ... then eventually tuned the whole guitar back up to concert. Then we played that song with me in dropped tuning, until I eventually tuned up too because it was quicker than retuning the guitar.

[BigAlonBass]

[quote name='endorka' post='1068419' date='Dec 24 2010, 12:26 AM']Sorry Big Al, looks like I just parroted your post :-)

Jennifer[/quote]
No problem. You know what they say - "Great Minds Think Alike".........




I generally don't listen to the ones that counter with "Fools Seldom Differ"

[endorka]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1068456' date='Dec 24 2010, 02:02 AM']This annoys me a lot.
....
You never get this with keys or horn players.[/quote]

There is a detuned violin in Mahler's fourth symphony.

Happy Christmas all! :-)

Jennifer

[markstuk]

And german concert pitch is different from british as well :-)

[jezzaboy]

This is a great topic and this question has had me thinking for a while.

Let`s see if I have got it right.

I drop the bottom string to E flat but still play the A in the 5th fret position as normal and it sounds a semi tone lower?

And this makes it easier for the singer?

And is this called concert pitch?

Answers on a post card please.....

Jez

[Doddy]

[quote name='jezzaboy' post='1069237' date='Dec 25 2010, 01:28 PM']This is a great topic and this question has had me thinking for a while.

Let`s see if I have got it right.

I drop the bottom string to E flat but still play the A in the 5th fret position as normal and it sounds a semi tone lower?

And this makes it easier for the singer?

And is this called concert pitch?

Answers on a post card please.....

Jez[/quote]

Answers on a digital postcard......

If you are tuned a semitone flat, the 5th fret will be an A flat instead of an A.

It may make it easier for some singers,depending in their range.

I'm sure there are people who are refering to 'concert pitch' as EADG tuning,but the way I see it,is that even when you are detuned you are still in concert pitch.... C will always be a C-it's just now on a different fret.

[tauzero]

[quote name='jezzaboy' post='1069237' date='Dec 25 2010, 01:28 PM']I drop the bottom string to E flat but still play the A in the 5th fret position as normal and it sounds a semi tone lower?

And this makes it easier for the singer?

And is this called concert pitch?[/quote]
Yes, yes, and no. Concert pitch is 440Hz A.

40 years ago or so, when I was living at home and we had an upright joanna, it used to be tuned a semitone down from concert - which, my dad told me, was standard tuning (ie. standard was a semitone down from concert). Always caused problems with my violin playing as the pianos at school were in concert pitch so if I retuned to the piano at home, it needed tuning again at school.

[skankdelvar]

Interesting wiki-bit here: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch[/url]

Love the bit where Johann Christian Bach (son of the more celebrated JS Bach) who, on being questioned by the Crown Prince of Saxony about which pitch he favours, replies "Do what you ****ing like, see if I care, I've had it with all this b******s".

Edited December 25, 2010 by skankdelvar