Nuggets of wisdom that revolutionalised your playing.

[MacDaddy]

i originally learned the modes the hard way on a jazz course (which was disguised as a popular music course) by learning the notes of the scales and remembering the box patterns.
Years later after fogetting most of it all, I got Billy Sheehan's video, where he explained modes in terms of one pattern (major scale) all over the neck. Simply use different degrees on the pattern for the new roots of the modes.

Opened up the bass for me. Respect to Bill

[Sean]

[quote name='endorka' post='1072959' date='Dec 30 2010, 06:08 PM']We are all agreed on this, at least!



I've just checked some of her teaching material. While I cannot find the explicit reference to the major 3rd, there is this:

"For Rock and some Pop styles of playing, the most commonly used contemporary bass notes you use for these different chords are...
MAJOR - Root, 5th and 6th (also: 3rd, 4th, #4th to 5th as a run, also the 9th)...
The above are basically the primary notes to use for creating patterns in all styles of music except jazz."

While she does not totally proscribe the use of the 3rd in the above statement, it would seem that she views it as only applicable in the context of a run or fill, much as you describe above. - in the accompanying examples there are indeed very few major 3rds. There are some specific examples of major 10ths, but it is my impression that she views these differently as being used as part of a more "melodic" type of statement than the major 3rd.

I'll keep on looking for the major 3rd reference in her work - I am sure it is there, another poster in this thread has also come across it independently :-)

Whatever the case, it is a rule I have found useful. I do use the major 3rds in walking lines, but in other music I found that they have a propensity to sound corny. That's just my experience, of course.

Jennifer[/quote]

Carol gives the "wisdom" about major 3rds on one of her videos, she uses the word, "hokey", I'm sure, to describe how putting a third in over a major chord would sound - I think it's the video where there's all that background noise of trucks and cats crying.

This has bothered me for years and though I have pretty much tried to ignore what she said, on occasion she couldn't be more right . The same day I watched the video I had worked out Keith Richards' bassline to Sympathy for the Devil, and remember thinking that Carol was plainly not 100% correct in what she was saying as Symapthy has that wonderful Root-P4-M3-R played over the E and D chords of the some of the verse and it in no way sounds "hokey".

As an aside, if anyone else has seen those Carol Kaye "home videos' and wondered why one of the most recorded instrumentalists of all time failed to make a half decent job of producing tuition videos, you are not alone. I know what CK would say though: it's the content that counts etc.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Sean

[ahpook]

[quote name='Sean' post='1073153' date='Dec 30 2010, 09:00 PM']...as Symapthy has that wonderful Root-P4-M3-R played over the E and D chords of the some of the verse and it in no way sounds "hokey".[/quote]

can you explain the Root-P4 etc part please ?

(tho i feel i'm going to feel silly when you do)

[Hobbayne]

[quote name='ahpook' post='1073179' date='Dec 30 2010, 09:34 PM']can you explain the Root-P4 etc part please ?

(tho i feel i'm going to feel silly when you do)[/quote]

I think he means the root note and a perfect 4th, although I may be wrong.

[Sean]

[quote name='ahpook' post='1073179' date='Dec 30 2010, 09:34 PM']can you explain the Root-P4 etc part please ?

(tho i feel i'm going to feel silly when you do)[/quote]

Over the E chord Keith plays an E then an A then a G# and back to E, over the D chord he plays D then up a perfect fourth to G and down to the major third of the D chord, F#.

It's the higher verse bass figure and provides some dynamic against the R5R5 of the main figure.

[Hobbayne]

Keith? Not Bill??

[endorka]

Perhaps I should clarify I like about Carol Kaye's major third "rule". It is not that it is an infallible rule, clearly there are exceptions that demonstrate that this is not the case. It is that such a seemingly simplistic rule can have such a wide applicability. In other words, it is a very good heuristic, or rule of thumb.

I have found that many experienced players build up several of these heuristics, and this is often what gives them their signature sound. They seem to understand a subset of music to a very high degree, but the means by which they do this is often deceptively simple. Please note that I am not saying this knowledge is easy to come by, quite the opposite. It frequently seems to come from experience rather than an academic background, but is certainly no less valulable for doing so.

Jennifer

[ahpook]

[quote name='Sean' post='1073212' date='Dec 30 2010, 10:14 PM']Over the E chord Keith plays an E then an A then a G# and back to E, over the D chord he plays D then up a perfect fourth to G and down to the major third of the D chord, F#.

It's the higher verse bass figure and provides some dynamic against the R5R5 of the main figure.[/quote]

gotcha

[robocorpse]

Best piece of advice I got was in my teens from a non-bass playing mate who was watching me gently noodling away, and shouted across the room:

"HIT THE BLOODY THING, IT'S A RICKENBACKER NOT A F*CKIN CLITORIS!"

Worked too, I found all those lovely clanky sounds, mmmmmmmmm! I quickly learned the advantages of digging in for dynamics and grunt, and it probably stuck because it was off the cuff, rude and from a mate, rather than some priggish music teacher

[Sean]

[quote name='Hobbayne' post='1073221' date='Dec 30 2010, 10:22 PM']Keith? Not Bill?? [/quote]

Keith indeed.

Keith, Mick Taylor, Ronnie Wood, Willie Weeks, Steve Jordan and a few others have laid down the low end for the Stones all on Bill's watch too!

Total derail of this thread and I apologise but for an interesting Stones bass line check out the weirdly dark funk overtones of Fingerprint File from It's Only Rock and Roll with Mick T on bass. Unusually for the Stones the bass is high in the mix and is the main hook throughout the song.

[daz]

[quote name='Romberg Bevel' post='1072885' date='Dec 30 2010, 04:58 PM']I don't think that's right - that would consign pretty much every bassline to the 'cheesy' bin. The major third's always good, isn't it? I think Carol says something along the lines of think about chord tones rather than scales.
I like Carol Kaye but she does ramble alot and often says do something then plays something else (on her tapes at least!).

She plays a hell of alot of thirds for someone who tries to avoid 'em. [/quote]


I have no idea about this, all i know about carol kaye is that she does love to [i]emphasize[/i] the importance of 'chord tones'

Edited December 31, 2010 by daz

[Joe Hubbard Bass]

[quote name='endorka' post='1072959' date='Dec 30 2010, 06:08 PM']I've just checked some of her teaching material. While I cannot find the explicit reference to the major 3rd, there is this:

"For Rock and some Pop styles of playing, the most commonly used contemporary bass notes you use for these different chords are...
MAJOR - Root, 5th and 6th (also: 3rd, 4th, #4th to 5th as a run, also the 9th)...
The above are basically the primary notes to use for creating patterns in all styles of music except jazz."

While she does not totally proscribe the use of the 3rd in the above statement, it would seem that she views it as only applicable in the context of a run or fill, much as you describe above. - in the accompanying examples there are indeed very few major 3rds. There are some specific examples of major 10ths, but it is my impression that she views these differently as being used as part of a more "melodic" type of statement than the major 3rd.

I'll keep on looking for the major 3rd reference in her work - I am sure it is there, another poster in this thread has also come across it independently :-)

Whatever the case, it is a rule I have found useful. I do use the major 3rds in walking lines, but in other music I found that they have a propensity to sound corny. That's just my experience, of course.

Jennifer[/quote]


Okay, but from this quote she does not say to avoid the 3rd. If her (or your) interpretation of the use of a major third over a Major chord is corny or hokey, then that comes down to a personal taste issue which is an entirely different argument, but to turn it into a rule is foolhardy to say the least. If this advice is purely related to style analysis of a given player then so be it, but everyone needs to understand that a major 3rd against a major chord works melodically regardless of the musical context. Furthermore, there are thousands of references to this on recorded music.

Best

Joe

Edited December 31, 2010 by Joe Hubbard Bass

[Joe Hubbard Bass]

[quote name='Sean' post='1073153' date='Dec 30 2010, 09:00 PM']This has bothered me for years and though I have pretty much tried to ignore what she said, on occasion she couldn't be more right . The same day I watched the video I had worked out Keith Richards' bassline to Sympathy for the Devil, and remember thinking that Carol was plainly not 100% correct in what she was saying as Symapthy has that wonderful Root-P4-M3-R played over the E and D chords of the some of the verse and it in no way sounds "hokey".[/quote]

This is the sign of a bad teacher and by you listening to that advice and thinking that she must be right, when you compare it with thousands of bass lines throughout history that do indeed display usage of a major 3rd over a major chord, it increases your confusion levels exponentially.

[quote]As an aside, if anyone else has seen those Carol Kaye "home videos' and wondered why one of the most recorded instrumentalists of all time failed to make a half decent job of producing tuition videos, you are not alone. I know what CK would say though: it's the content that counts etc.[/quote]

It's no secret that much of what she claimed to have recorded was actually played by James Jamerson. This is not meant to denigrate what she did play on; in her day she was a good player, but being a good player doesn't automatically transpose into being a good teacher.

Best

Joe

Edited December 31, 2010 by Joe Hubbard Bass

[Joe Hubbard Bass]

[quote name='Sean' post='1073347' date='Dec 31 2010, 12:48 AM']Keith indeed.

Keith, Mick Taylor, Ronnie Wood, Willie Weeks, Steve Jordan and a few others have laid down the low end for the Stones all on Bill's watch too!

Total derail of this thread and I apologise but for an interesting Stones bass line check out the weirdly dark funk overtones of Fingerprint File from It's Only Rock and Roll with Mick T on bass. Unusually for the Stones the bass is high in the mix and is the main hook throughout the song.[/quote]


Good call! ...and you can add Charlie Drayton to that list.

Best

Joe

[Sean]

[quote name='Joe Hubbard Bass' post='1073468' date='Dec 31 2010, 09:30 AM']Good call! ...and you can add Charlie Drayton to that list.

Best

Joe[/quote]

I've always loved Charlie Drayton's playing on Talk is Cheap. He and Jordon used to swap drumming and bass duties on stage too.

[Sean]

[quote name='Joe Hubbard Bass' post='1073466' date='Dec 31 2010, 09:24 AM']It's no secret that much of what she claimed to have recorded was actually played by James Jamerson. This is not meant to denigrate what she did play on; in her day she was a good player, but being a good player doesn't automatically transpose into being a good teacher.

Best

Joe[/quote]

Joe, you'll be pleased to know that Ms Kaye's videos have been consigned to my attic for some
years now.

Jamerson vs. Kaye? We've had some cracking threads on that topic ;-)

[Sean]

Anyway here's a nugget to get back on topic:

Little and often. Practise that is. Do some every day even if it's just fifteen minutes, it's better than nothing. Smart phone apps for ear training mean you can learn on the bus or train without your bass. Take sheet music with you and practise tapping the rhythm of any tricky bits. There's always an opportunity to get some practise in.

Do an app search on music theory and see what comes up, there are loads of cheap and free ones the are useful. John Lay's Harmonic Ear Trainer is good and works like a quiz or puzzle with variable degrees of difficulty. It's helped me loads in working out parts by ear.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Sean

[Truckstop]

"SLOW DOWN, FOR F**KS SAKE!"

Truckstop

[algmusic]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1072487' date='Dec 30 2010, 09:48 AM']Two for me.

One was from a Cardiff sax/flute/guitar/drums player called Lee Goodall (and, yes, he excelled at all of them - I think flute was his first instrument and he is priimarily known as a sax player) who, when drumming in a Quartet I was playing with, explained to me the concept of playing ahead of, on, and behind the beat. Lee used to live in New York and has played with Will Lee and Anthony Jackson (playing with me must have been such a come down!!).[/quote]

This was one of the biggest things that changed my playing on drums. I got these pearls of wisdom from a drummer named Russ Miller. I later tried this on bass and it did the same. It's important to understand what you playing does to your other band members aswell. If you all play behind or in front or on it, it usually can feel weird, but if you can control where in the time you play you can have more control of the music.

I also have learnt that playing the simple thing very very well is far more effective than playing lots of mediocre notes often. I think it's sometimes an age thing, but if you nail playing a simple pulse on an open string, you have far more musicians calling you back for gigs than a jaco wannabe.. Space, feel is the key as well.

[endorka]

[quote name='Joe Hubbard Bass' post='1073460' date='Dec 31 2010, 09:03 AM']Okay, but from this quote she does not say to avoid the 3rd. If her (or your) interpretation of the use of a major third over a Major chord is corny or hokey, then that comes down to a personal taste issue which is an entirely different argument, but to turn it into a rule is foolhardy to say the least.[/quote]

Not really Joe - my recollection is that she does say elsewhere to avoid using the major 3rd as a component of basslines, and a refinement of her statement is that it is ok as a passing note in the context of chromatic runs.

I don't have a huge vested interest in defending her in this; it is just what she said, and it would appear that someone else, for better or worse, has also been privy to her statment on this, independently of me. It is unlikely we would both have imagined it!

I think you are reading a little too much into this to be honest, it was not intended as a hard and steadfast rule that will always work no matter what, rather as a "nugget as wisdom". As I mentioned before, what impressed me is that a statement so concise can be correct so often.

Jennifer

[Joe Hubbard Bass]

[quote name='endorka' post='1073612' date='Dec 31 2010, 12:01 PM']Not really Joe - my recollection is that she does say elsewhere to avoid using the major 3rd as a component of basslines, and a refinement of her statement is that it is ok as a passing note in the context of chromatic runs.

I don't have a huge vested interest in defending her in this; it is just what she said, and it would appear that someone else, for better or worse, has also been privy to her statment on this, independently of me. It is unlikely we would both have imagined it!

I think you are reading a little too much into this to be honest, it was not intended as a hard and steadfast rule that will always work no matter what, rather as a "nugget as wisdom". As I mentioned before, what impressed me is that a statement so concise can be correct so often.

Jennifer[/quote]

The quote that you posted of Carol Kaye’s does not subscribe to avoiding the 3rd. Only Carol Kaye would be able to clarify what she actually meant; you see- that’s the trouble with passing on second hand information.

As for the notion that the 3rd can or should only be used as a passing tone or part of a chromatic line is nonsense and incorrect harmonically- period. I reiterate the thousands of musical references that refute this not to mention using the third to re-harmonize a chord progression. You say that a statement so concise can be correct so often? The problem with this “little nugget of wisdom” is that it is clearly incorrect.

Best

Joe

[endorka]

[quote name='Joe Hubbard Bass' post='1073619' date='Dec 31 2010, 12:17 PM']The quote that you posted of Carol Kaye’s does not subscribe to avoiding the 3rd. Only Carol Kaye would be able to clarify what she actually meant; you see- that’s the trouble with passing on second hand information.[/quote]

I am certain I have other teaching material where she said to avoid the major third in basslines, unless playing reggae. I don't have time at the moment to look for this - it may be in a video, for example - but when I come across the reference I'll post it, even if I am wrong :-)

[quote]As for the notion that the 3rd can or should only be used as a passing tone or part of a chromatic line is nonsense and incorrect harmonically- period.[/quote]

I agree that it is not universally applicable. But to say that it is nonsense and incorrect - period - i.e. all the time, is also flawed. In my studies of basslines I have noticed that many do emphasise use of the major 6th rather than the major 3rd, particularly those around Carol Kaye's time. In my opinion, basslines constructly thusly tend to sound more "soulful", for want of a better word.

For example, I've found it very frequently used in chord progressions going from the tonic major (e.g. C major) to ii minor (e.g D minor), where the 5th and 6th of the major chord become the 4th and fifth of the minor chord. Sure, it is not the only way to negotiate this progression, but it does seem to be used a lot.

So, it is a useful rule of thumb for creating rock/pop/soul basslines.

[quote]I reiterate the thousands of musical references that refute this not to mention using the third to re-harmonize a chord progression. You say that a statement so concise can be correct so often? The problem with this “little nugget of wisdom” is that it is clearly incorrect.[/quote]

Again, I feel incorrect is too strong a word. I'm happy to concede that it is only appropriate to certain genres of music, and not to others. Your mention of chord progression re-harmonization could arguably be said to fall into similar terriory; great in some contexts, but in my experience it has limited acceptance in most pop music.

Jennifer

[Joe Hubbard Bass]

[quote name='endorka' post='1073639' date='Dec 31 2010, 12:39 PM']I am certain I have other teaching material where she said to avoid the major third in basslines, unless playing reggae. I don't have time at the moment to look for this - it may be in a video, for example - but when I come across the reference I'll post it, even if I am wrong :-)



I agree that it is not universally applicable. But to say that it is nonsense and incorrect - period - i.e. all the time, is also flawed. In my studies of basslines I have noticed that many do emphasise use of the major 6th rather than the major 3rd, particularly those around Carol Kaye's time. In my opinion, basslines constructly thusly tend to sound more "soulful", for want of a better word.

For example, I've found it very frequently used in chord progressions going from the tonic major (e.g. C major) to ii minor (e.g D minor), where the 5th and 6th of the major chord become the 4th and fifth of the minor chord. Sure, it is not the only way to negotiate this progression, but it does seem to be used a lot.

So, it is a useful rule of thumb for creating rock/pop/soul basslines.



Again, I feel incorrect is too strong a word. I'm happy to concede that it is only appropriate to certain genres of music, and not to others. Your mention of chord progression re-harmonization could arguably be said to fall into similar terriory; great in some contexts, but in my experience it has limited acceptance in most pop music.

Jennifer[/quote]

This is really a matter of taste on your part, so there really isn't any need to run around in circles here.

[b]It is a fact harmonically that the third works over a major chord in any context.[/b]

As I have said before, thousands of bass lines, melodies and solos prove this. You could say a little golden nugget is to always play the root and fifth over any chord. There are plenty of players who do this; you could also argue that they are "soulful" because of it. But really this is a limiting belief that really needs correcting when teaching others.

Best

Joe

[Sean]

Another nugget: Learn arpeggios! It's as essential as learning chords on piano or guitar. An easy way is to do the ii7-V7-I chord changes around the cycle of fifths. If there ever was a "quick fix" to turbo-charge your theory [i]and[/i] fingerboard knowledge in one this is it. Once you are familiar with this exercise you will know all the common chord tones and can go off and challenge Carol as much as you please ;-)

Edited December 31, 2010 by Sean

[Sean]

[quote name='Joe Hubbard Bass' post='1073681' date='Dec 31 2010, 01:41 PM'][b]It is a fact harmonically that the third works over a major chord in any context.[/b][/quote]

So much so that Carol Kaye threw her own homespun convention to the wind and used one as the second note of her original bass line in Bernadette.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Sean