Tale of the two combo's

[citymariner]

Hi guys and gals,

Right, I have real predicament I'm hoping you can shed some light upon.

I own:
Ashdown MAG300 210t combo (308w @ 40hm) with an Ashdown 15" cab.
Fender MIA P-bass
A range of Boss effects (bass>FV50>OC3>ODB3>BF2>CH1>DD3>GEB7>amp)

The place where we rehearse has some gear and due to me suffering from the festive period, I could not be bothered to lug it to the rehearsal space.

The bass amp they have there is a Fender Rumble 100 (210t like my Ashdown) 100w @4ohm


Now looking at the amps side by side mine should easily be more powerful, right?

Band practice last night the lead guitarist (a very nice reasonable guitar player I'll add) commented on how punchy my bass sounded.

Now I rolled some low mids and boosted the high end a little bit for a couple of punky numbers we did but other than that left it flat.


The question:

Why is the Fender cutting through more than my Ashdown rig?

I'm thinking it has to be me messing around with the EQ.

Is it that I'm sharing the power of the amp adding the 15 and that is effecting things.


This has been doing my head in, that comment keeps rolling around in my head to the point where I'm thinking of trading my rig in and getting something bigger (4x10 and a seperate head...)

Anything you can suggest to try would be great (next band practice is Monday)


Thanks in advance,

Josh

[EBS_freak]

Why? Easy. Ashdown = woolly

* runs away *

[Merton]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='1072739' date='Dec 30 2010, 02:13 PM']Why? Easy. Ashdown = woolly

* runs away *[/quote]
Haha, nice!

[citymariner]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='1072739' date='Dec 30 2010, 02:13 PM']Why? Easy. Ashdown = woolly

* runs away *[/quote]

So wooly that 300w v 100w is negated.

However, to support your argument and make me pine after some EBS gear...

Thought I'd have a look in the cab to see if anything was a miss.

Found one screw, then another and finally a third.

Hmmmm......

Too small to hold amp into cab, too small to hold 10"s into cab, not too small however to hold the magnet on to the tweeter horn.

Funnily enough the sound is now much brighter and cutting.

I've reset all my EQ's and started from scratch again blending a frequency at a time on my rig and then filling any gaps with my GEB7.

Much happier... although has this all been psychological and it's made no difference at all as the tweater is not going to be rated that high on the W scale (probably around 25w?) and is it more that I've reset my EQ and redone my sound now I'm getting a better ear for what I want?

[daz]

Try the Ashdown on its side, to get a better dispertion and less bounced signals With the speakers in a vertical line instead of the horizontal. (there was something about this in this months Bass guitar magazine.)
I know the Fender is the same but you never know it might help.

Edited December 30, 2010 by daz

[EBS_freak]

PS wattage not equal to volume.

[citymariner]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='1072817' date='Dec 30 2010, 03:23 PM']PS wattage not equal to volume.[/quote]

Goes without saying but I can see how you think i'm hooked on that with my comparing W's

Volume isn't the issue- it's how the sound cuts through.

Having sat down and thought about it more I think there are a few more variables that could have influenced things.

Thanks for the hints - i'll check them out on Monday.

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='1072739' date='Dec 30 2010, 02:13 PM']Why? Easy. Ashdown = woolly

* runs away *[/quote]

This.

I've never been able to EQ any Ashdown I've ever played. They've all either been wooly and bassy or clear and tinny (or half wooly and half tinny). I've no doubt that there's exceptions to the rule, but I've not found them yet (though there are Ashdown owners on here that seem pleased).

Have you tried not using the 15" cab? 10" speakers tend to be a bit punchier, or maybe the cab's interfering with the combo's speakers somehow.

Whatever mine or anyone else's opinions on Ashdown, it sounds like you just prefer the sound of the Fender and it sits in your band's mix better. If you can afford to replace your amp, it's definitely something worth looking into. If you can't, try using an EQ pedal and/or compression before your Ashdown, it might help clear up the signal a bit and give you more control over where you're going in the mix.

[dincz]

Combo and 15 out of phase?

[citymariner]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1072893' date='Dec 30 2010, 05:03 PM']This.

I've never been able to EQ any Ashdown I've ever played. They've all either been wooly and bassy or clear and tinny (or half wooly and half tinny). I've no doubt that there's exceptions to the rule, but I've not found them yet (though there are Ashdown owners on here that seem pleased).

Have you tried not using the 15" cab? 10" speakers tend to be a bit punchier, or maybe the cab's interfering with the combo's speakers somehow.

Whatever mine or anyone else's opinions on Ashdown, it sounds like you just prefer the sound of the Fender and it sits in your band's mix better. If you can afford to replace your amp, it's definitely something worth looking into. If you can't, try using an EQ pedal and/or compression before your Ashdown, it might help clear up the signal a bit and give you more control over where you're going in the mix.[/quote]


Hi,

I don't think i've ever managed to EQ an ashdown either!
I'm using a GEB7 to give me effectively a 12 band EQ as non of the Ashdown Freqs are the same as the one on the GEB7.

I've just asked the guitarist to clarify what he said "the sound was deep and bassy but still had clarity"

I'm new to bass (moved from guitar) so had a strict budget of £1000 (well I blew that budget but hey thats music) so went with a decent bass (MIA P-bass)
and then the mag300. I played it in the shop and liked its tone etc and to be fair in my music room at home I still like the sound.

You've struck a chord about it just not sitting in the mix. The lead guitarist uses a Mesa Boogie d-5 (50w) and if it is on 2 the drummer needs to use sledgehammers to hear his drums - the amp is fantastic- bright/crunchy/glassy/warm all at different stages and when he wants it.


I've tried with and without the 15 and as you say the 210's have that mid/high mid punch/ rasp. The 15 does round of the bottom end.

I've recently added the 15 to move some more air - it does not respond as well to the higher frequencies - you can tell when you roll each frequency on one at a time with the 210 and 15 side by side.
I have put the combo on it's side so there is a vertical stack to the 210's and must say that standing back from the amp it makes a difference (up close not so much)

My only other theory is that the rehearsal space means that bass, drums and vocals are on a small stage whilst the two guitarists are on the floor. Now last night the 210 Fender was on the stage probably at about shoulder level on the lead guitarist. Normally my 210 is propped under the 15 raising the 210 for my benefit - is he just getting the rolling warm lows from the 15?


My problem is what to go for and what if I try it, like it but it doesn't fit into the mix again!

I'm finding this bass amp business much harder than the guitar amp side of things - think it is because bass is more important!

[citymariner]

[quote name='dincz' post='1072939' date='Dec 30 2010, 05:46 PM']Combo and 15 out of phase?[/quote]

Can you explain this a little further/point me to a thread that does - I think I know what you're going to say but not secure enough to say it.

I've heard of 10's and 15's being a big 'no no' due to the risk of being out phase but then seeing so many people use the setup (and some being using the setup as me) it led me to believe it is folklore - however my electronics and music tech qualifications (although they feel pretty useless at the moment) tell me that there must be some truth in it thanks to good old subject physics!

[Phil Starr]

If the speakers are out of phase the bass from one cancels the other and you only get a tinny bass light sound. The actual extent of this depends upon the distance between the speakers. I don't think this is the problem you are describing.

Moving from 100W to 300W is less than a 5dB increase. If you have speakers that have peaks of +/- 3dB then some bits of the fender may be louder than some bits of the Ashdown. In addition our ears are more sensitive to some frequencies by as much as 20dB. If the Ashdowns are bassier they may well sound quiter and less punchy. In all rooms some frequencies resonate and others don't. Bottom A drives me mad in my current room for example. This means some amps suit some rooms more than others.

In addition amps don't radiate all frequencies in all directions equally well. There are all sorts of lobing and directionality problems and these are much worse with multiple drivers. Think of the speakers radiating sound like a torch with a cracked lens and you get the idea.

Any of these could be causing the things you describe. I'd test an amp in several rooms before I decided it was poor or not.

[MoonBassAlpha]

[quote name='citymariner' post='1072948' date='Dec 30 2010, 05:52 PM']Can you explain this a little further/point me to a thread that does - I think I know what you're going to say but not secure enough to say it.

I've heard of 10's and 15's being a big 'no no' due to the risk of being out phase but then seeing so many people use the setup (and some being using the setup as me) it led me to believe it is folklore - however my electronics and music tech qualifications (although they feel pretty useless at the moment) tell me that there must be some truth in it thanks to good old subject physics![/quote]
It's not about the mixing of the speakers at all, it's just that if the 15"speaker is wired the opposite way to the combo the two cabs will tend to cancel each other out, in other words if the 10" cones are going forward, the 15 will be going backwards. If the socket on the cab, or the speaker or cable are wired wrong, this could happen.

[citymariner]

[quote name='Phil Starr' post='1072974' date='Dec 30 2010, 06:22 PM']If the speakers are out of phase the bass from one cancels the other and you only get a tinny bass light sound. The actual extent of this depends upon the distance between the speakers. I don't think this is the problem you are describing.

Moving from 100W to 300W is less than a 5dB increase. If you have speakers that have peaks of +/- 3dB then some bits of the fender may be louder than some bits of the Ashdown. In addition our ears are more sensitive to some frequencies by as much as 20dB. If the Ashdowns are bassier they may well sound quiter and less punchy. In all rooms some frequencies resonate and others don't. Bottom A drives me mad in my current room for example. This means some amps suit some rooms more than others.

In addition amps don't radiate all frequencies in all directions equally well. There are all sorts of lobing and directionality problems and these are much worse with multiple drivers. Think of the speakers radiating sound like a torch with a cracked lens and you get the idea.

Any of these could be causing the things you describe. I'd test an amp in several rooms before I decided it was poor or not.[/quote]

I think I have just had an epiphany or something - played a gig a few weeks back in Ab. The riff uses the root quite a lot and it just seemed to sound gash. I even looked up what freq Ab1 produced to see if i could boost it between my amp/ GEB7 - got in a bit of panic over it!

At home it is more like A1 that is a bit of toneless wonder- i actually posted in the bass section sometime ago wondering whether it was a problem with my bass/ pickups!

My sound was flappy and overly tinny to me on this little stage last night, the fender 210 was cranks full (I only use my 210+15 on about 6-7 when i take it) the guitarist out front said it was deep and bassy - probably was from where he was stood and the fact the amp was on a hollow stage.

[quote name='MoonBassAlpha' post='1072978' date='Dec 30 2010, 06:31 PM']It's not about the mixing of the speakers at all, it's just that if the 15"speaker is wired the opposite way to the combo the two cabs will tend to cancel each other out, in other words if the 10" cones are going forward, the 15 will be going backwards. If the socket on the cab, or the speaker or cable are wired wrong, this could happen.[/quote]

Checked the wiring and they are wired correctly - thanks for the info though. It is little things like this that can make a big difference clearly and was a quick check!

thanks for all your bits of advice. I've spent an afternoon/evening playing bass as a consequence of trying things out, so, if nothing more than turning a cab on its side I got to play bass for hours! Winner every time!

Our drummer loves my rig - he likes the sound and can always hear it clearly. Thinking about it I love my rig too (its not the best its not the worst) but it is my second rig (i stepped up from an Ashdown 180)

It is a strange thing when someone comments on a what you class as an inferior rig as sounding better al sorts jumps into your head.

Gonna compare the two amps on Monday and find what the guitarist likes in the fender and get that into the ashdown if i can.

[JTUK]

I have to chip in here and say I haven't liked Ashdown either. The only thing that was workable was a 15" combo which basically used their most popular amp ..and I liked that as it was a punchy easy to carry option.
The seperates have been ..well, wooley is a fair way to describe the sound...politley.

[thodrik]

I'm not an Ashdown fan at all, but after 4 years or so I can generally manage a pretty good sound out of them. Normally it involves turning the bass knob to about 10 or 11 o'clock, leaving everything else 'flat' apart from maybe boosting the highs a tiny bit (passive basses can bit by with a bit more bass in my opinion). I find if you cut the bass on an Ashdown you end up with a tone closer to most other amps when the bass has been boosted a fair bit. Other views may vary, considerably

Saying that though, I just don't think the eq is in any way an improvement over what Trace Elliot were doing a decade before. I'm not that impressed with the Ashdown cabs though. Still despite all of that, I still thing that Ashdown make decent amps, I just don't like the front end design as much as anything else.

[dincz]

[quote name='citymariner' post='1073040' date='Dec 30 2010, 08:32 PM']Checked the wiring and they are wired correctly[/quote]

Ignore me if I've got the wrong end of the stick, but you can't actually tell if the cabs are in phase by checking the wiring unless you're comparing two identical cabinets. You really need to do it by trial and error or by connecting a battery to the speakers to check that all cones move in the same direction at the same time.

[Huge Hands]

I have the exact same setup as you and find that on their own, each cab is fine, but put together, there is a bit of a "hole" in the sound.

Some much more clever guys than me on here (such as Bill Fitzmaurice and Alex Claber) have suggested this could be an issue with mixing 10s and 15s, and getting a cone filtering effect. I'm sure they can explain the physics much better than me.

I don't play many big rig gigs, but when I have used the two together, I always notice a lack of normal clarity/punch. I've even pulled the cable out of the 2x10 and used the 15 only with the combo head when it was really annoying me.

[deepbass5]

Loads of good pointers above
Could be a wiring issue in one of them if they have been put together wrong, speaker output crossed over. But as stated the only way to check is a nine volt battery I usually use one that is in the yellow just to be kind to the speaker. As one is a combo's does it have external speaker cables. I usually do this after making up my own leads just to make sure. Put the live to the jack tip and swing the negative pole onto the body of the jack whilst watching the cone it should jump out, if correctly wired. All this could be just down to efficiency of the speakers involved. Again as stated above Watts don't necessarily = volume you ears are not lying to you. I bought an expensive 4x12 with a variable crossover switch that was wired wrong from the factory in one position it put the full power across the horn a blew it. They sent me a new horn and switch But it does happen.

[JMT3781]

just i thought, and probably something you have considered..

does the mag amp have the ashdown preshape button on it? if so, have you tried running with it not on? spoils the sound of my bass for me..

[dan670844]

[quote name='citymariner' post='1072706' date='Dec 30 2010, 01:42 PM']Hi guys and gals,

Right, I have real predicament I'm hoping you can shed some light upon.

I own:
Ashdown MAG300 210t combo (308w @ 40hm) with an Ashdown 15" cab.
Fender MIA P-bass
A range of Boss effects (bass>FV50>OC3>ODB3>BF2>CH1>DD3>GEB7>amp)

The place where we rehearse has some gear and due to me suffering from the festive period, I could not be bothered to lug it to the rehearsal space.

The bass amp they have there is a Fender Rumble 100 (210t like my Ashdown) 100w @4ohm


Now looking at the amps side by side mine should easily be more powerful, right?

Band practice last night the lead guitarist (a very nice reasonable guitar player I'll add) commented on how punchy my bass sounded.

Now I rolled some low mids and boosted the high end a little bit for a couple of punky numbers we did but other than that left it flat.


The question:

Why is the Fender cutting through more than my Ashdown rig?

I'm thinking it has to be me messing around with the EQ.

Is it that I'm sharing the power of the amp adding the 15 and that is effecting things.


This has been doing my head in, that comment keeps rolling around in my head to the point where I'm thinking of trading my rig in and getting something bigger (4x10 and a seperate head...)

Anything you can suggest to try would be great (next band practice is Monday)


Thanks in advance,

Josh[/quote]


Sounds like your mids to me, Ashdowns tend to have rather a scouped eq even 'flat' so the lows are a bit boosted and the mids attentuated while the highs are also boosted. Have you got the mid shift off, deep, bright, contour thingy's off or on? try turning it all off, have your compressor turned up halfway, everything flat see where you are, you might need to boost your mids a bit, for the particular place you are playing. Amps are never 'flat' they do have a certain eq profile even if you don't twiddle the knobs, the fender amp may just a more neutral flat eq i.e not attenuated mids . Mids are very important part of your sound, too much your sound will be boxy, to little and you won't cut through. Try to listen to what you amp sounds like over the other side of the room up close, where you get all the off axis malarky going on, is not represnetative of what you are sounding like. Ashdowns gear is very powerful in the vein of the old trace elliot stuff, The woolly sound everyone is going on about is fact that they, due to the power (even the 300 watt mag) they are able to really push some serious low end out. In most situations you might find you will need to cut your low end to pull everything up sq. Years ago I used to use a ABM 300 watt head, it was a seriously loud bit of kit (it had the same output section as your system). Once you work this all out you will love your rig, it will be extremely punchy, tight, with great low definition. The Mag is a very underated unit. Just cos its cheaper doesnt mean its not good. But never pass up the opportunity to play live on other amps,its a useful experience. Eq'ing you bass to a room, to your cabs, to create your sound is all part of the journey, but I will say Ashdown manuals guidance etc is shockingly poor, all their amps have quite a few bells and whistles and their own unique personality and it takes a bit to tune them in, even a seasoned hack may struggle for a bit!! but when you find the sweet spot they are good amps.