Neo Soul

[MattCvijan]

Hi guys and gals,

I am currently writing my dissertation around Neo Soul, and would really appreciate your views and opinions about Neo Soul music/culture. (if theres anybody to talk to about neo soul... surely it has to be my fellow bassists )

How would you define Neo Soul music? what do you like about the sound? do you think there is a neo soul culture? is there a strong neo soul identity?... is neo soul "black music"?

What do you think of the idea that in order to be accepted as an authentic Neo Soul artist, you must be a black american?

All comments and views welcome.

Thanks a bunch.

Have a great New Year!!!!!!

Matt

Edited December 30, 2010 by MattCvijan

[bubinga5]

Some of the very best soul produced today me thinks...

IMHO its an amalgamation of modern soul, funk, but the change that makes it slightly different, comes from jazz, hiphop... lets face it there is such a blend of this sort of stuff, its difficult to make it out...Erykah Badu is cool... Young Disiples, are very much Neo Soul..and nothing to do with Acid Jazz as some may say... Jill Scott is good listening.. D Angelo too

these may give u an example of this sort of vibe..

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hVp47f5YZg"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hVp47f5YZg[/url]

Some super funk Neo..

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d9eydCfTdw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d9eydCfTdw[/url]

the best Neo soul intro ever..you gotta wait for it but its live and its soooo funky..

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tIxevTLbQU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tIxevTLbQU[/url]

Edited December 30, 2010 by bubinga5

[Sibob]

Play really really behind the beat lol

I personally see 'neo-soul' as the musician's antidote to what has essentially become 'chart rnb'.
It has become a credible outlet for those who want to like modern 'soul' music but don't want to be labeled as 'mainstream' pop-lovers. As a result, the artists often capture the real essence of the genre's they're approximating, 60's soul, motown etc


Obviously you can see that I don't particularly like labels when it comes to music (or art in general)....but necessary for essays I guess!.

Obviously notable artists are Raphael Saadiq, D'Angelo, Me'shell N'degéocello, John Legend perhaps

Good luck

Si

[bubinga5]

Sorry but i dont think this is the case Si... Credible yes but main stream lovers want for pop soul its not... i dont know how much you have listened to.. As for playing behind the beat, with all due respect you been listening to too much D Angelo..

You have named artists such as Meshell, D Angelo, but these people (although have taken there influence from such artists from the 60's) have forged a totally different sound and feel...

there is huge amounts of soul music that is not pop..its just good soul music..

i dont mind labeling music..like different shades of blue.....you gotta call it something..

Edited December 31, 2010 by bubinga5

[Sibob]

I never suggested it was for a want of pop-soul, I suggested it was to provide oneself with a credible form of great music that has been taken off-course by the vast majority of 'mainstream' artists.
You're right, I have listened to a fair bit of D'angelo this week with my behind the beat remark , but I stand by my opinion that Neo Soul is a genuine modern take (therefore incorporating modern cultural aspects, hiphop etc) on old soul music, a more thoughtful execution of it's chart-focused breathren perhaps.

Si

[steve-soar]

Soul, is soul. The only constant is that somebody is gonna feel sad.
Hathaway, Gaye, Martyn.
I rest my case.

[bubinga5]

[quote name='Sibob' post='1073332' date='Dec 31 2010, 12:30 AM']I never suggested it was for a want of pop-soul, I suggested it was to provide oneself with a credible form of great music that has been taken off-course by the vast majority of 'mainstream' artists.
You're right, I have listened to a fair bit of D'angelo this week with my behind the beat remark , but I stand by my opinion that Neo Soul is a genuine modern take (therefore incorporating modern cultural aspects, hiphop etc) on old soul music, a more thoughtful execution of it's chart-focused breathren perhaps.

Si[/quote]
Yes i agree Si.. I guess it is but you could say that about lots of music.. Did you mean it was a release from the more commercial artists that are trying there (capable maybe, hands at soul)

Edited December 31, 2010 by bubinga5

[Delberthot]

Surely its some kind of lightweight, compact soul, no?



Where's me washoard, I mean coat.

[wateroftyne]

It's like old soul, but without the good bits. IMO.

[MattCvijan]

Thanks guys, this is really helping.

Honest opinions are exactly what im looking for.

I think its difficult to put any labels on music or art, but agree that to a certain extent it is necessary.

I think that many Artists, and maybe fans too, resent their art being labelled as it can in some cases ( Neo Soul as an example) just be a cold marketting tool, used to shift records.

i believe that in many ways Neo Soul is more of a soul revival than a new breed of soul ( like the term Neo might imply). I feel that Neo Soul was an answer to over synthesized music that was around during the 90s etc. I believe that Artists like D'Angelo and Erykah were trying to bring back more passionate music, writing with more meaning and bringing back live instrumentation and artistic expression.

Would you agree??

I feel that Neo Soul music has a strong african american identity. What do you think of the idea that, in order to be accepted as an authentic neo soul artist you have to be an african american?

[skej21]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1073491' date='Dec 31 2010, 10:05 AM']It's like old soul, but without the good bits. IMO.[/quote]

IMO, It's like old soul, but with one additional good bit... Pino Palladino.

[MattCvijan]

[quote name='skej21' post='1073784' date='Dec 31 2010, 03:56 PM']IMO, It's like old soul, but with one additional good bit... Pino Palladino.[/quote]

A-men

[Kiwi]

I used to be in a neo soul band, we did Annie Lennox, Alicia Keys, Angie Stone and a host of other pop choonz. I don't agree at all that the genre is black-american. Using race or culture to identify this very contemporary genre complete disregards one of its great strengths - cross cultural appeal. Last Meshell Ndegeocello gig I went to was distinctive precisely because the audience was so varied and diverse from middle aged, middle class jazz fans to white student lesbians to black urban professionals.

I think the boundaries are blurred but the one thing that tends to define its appeal is the sensitivity and intelligence in both the song writing and the delivery. So I'd suggest the music tends to appeal across social divides to individuals who value those qualities.

[MattCvijan]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='1074009' date='Dec 31 2010, 08:44 PM']I used to be in a neo soul band, we did Annie Lennox, Alicia Keys, Angie Stone and a host of other pop choonz. I don't agree at all that the genre is black-american. Using race or culture to identify this very contemporary genre complete disregards one of its great strengths - cross cultural appeal. Last Meshell Ndegeocello gig I went to was distinctive precisely because the audience was so varied and diverse from middle aged, middle class jazz fans to white student lesbians to black urban professionals.

I think the boundaries are blurred but the one thing that tends to define its appeal is the sensitivity and intelligence in both the song writing and the delivery. So I'd suggest the music tends to appeal across social divides to individuals who value those qualities.[/quote]


Thank you for insight

Have a great New Year.

[Doddy]

[quote name='skej21' post='1073784' date='Dec 31 2010, 03:56 PM']IMO, It's like old soul, but with one additional good bit... Pino Palladino.[/quote]

Which then works as an argument against the music being 'African-American'. What with Pino being White and Welsh.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1073491' date='Dec 31 2010, 10:05 AM']It's like old soul, but without the good bits. IMO.[/quote]
Let me try and qualify this, as my original comment doesn't really help the OP...

One of the things I love about 'old' soul is the band performance. The way it was recorded makes it sound real and alive.

A lot of the newer stuff sounds is fussy, cluttered and clean. It just doesn't strike a chord with me personally.

Mind you, I've just check out a few live clips of Raphael Saadiq based on SiBiob's post, and I like that a lot... the band is an entity. Sounds great.

[skej21]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1074145' date='Jan 1 2011, 03:27 AM']Which then works as an argument against the music being 'African-American'. What with Pino being White and Welsh.[/quote]

I can't see how. How does the nationality of a single instrumentalist change the entire tradition and history of an entire genre of music?

Neo Soul is a genre born out african-american music traditions, and just because one bass player who isn't african-american happens to do the job and groove (in keeping with the traditions of the genre) that doesn't mean that it makes [u][b]all[/b][/u] neo soul music any less "african-american"... Let us not forget that Pino was playing behind an african-american (D'Angelo) who very much pays musical homage (respectfully) to the soul music that he is influenced by.

[Huge Hands]

I love this genre but find the real gems are live performances. Quite often I find that the recorded material is based on samples and programmed drums etc. It's only when you see them live do you get some serious musicians making the most out of what was originally a simple repetitive groove or break.

For instance, I love Jill Scott's recorded stuff, but listening to her live album 826 with Terry Tribbett on bass is a whole other level.

A good DVD I've always cherised is the "Jools Holland best of NuSoul and RnB". Some quality live performances.

To recap, I really like this genre and I'm a pale skinned ginger. Go figure.

All this is IMHO of course.

[Doddy]

[quote name='skej21' post='1074258' date='Jan 1 2011, 11:30 AM']I can't see how. How does the nationality of a single instrumentalist change the entire tradition and history of an entire genre of music?

Neo Soul is a genre born out african-american music traditions, and just because one bass player who isn't african-american happens to do the job and groove (in keeping with the traditions of the genre) that doesn't mean that it makes [u][b]all[/b][/u] neo soul music any less "african-american"... Let us not forget that Pino was playing behind an african-american (D'Angelo) who very much pays musical homage (respectfully) to the soul music that he is influenced by.[/quote]

No,it doesn't make it any less 'african -american',but it does help with the argument that it makes no difference what race you are
when it comes down to the music. If you have a feel for the music,that is really all that matters.

[risingson]

I think D'Angelo, Erykah Badu, Common, Mos Def, Raphael Saadiq, ?uestlove and alike wanted to set a bit of a new precedent within a community that was a little bogged down in the throes of modern technology. All that they did was take a type of music that had waned in popularity and turned it on its head by applying everything they loved about hip hop and modern R&B.

It's probably worth talking about the fact that numerous 'Neo-soul' artists have rejected the term, arguing that their music was simply a product of working in a close-knit group of rappers and musicians for so long, and thus the insular nature of what they were doing resulted in them producing a really unique sound.

What angle are you approaching this essay? Sort of a cause and affect perspective or something a little different?

[skej21]

You have completely contradicted yourself here Doddy.

Earlier, you said that Pino's contribution to Neo Soul [quote name='Doddy' post='1074145' date='Jan 1 2011, 03:27 AM'][u][b]works as an argument against the music being 'African-American'[/b][/u]. What with Pino being White and Welsh.[/quote]


Now you're saying;
[quote name='Doddy' post='1074979' date='Jan 2 2011, 02:03 AM']No,it doesn't make it any less 'african -american',but it does help with the argument that it makes no difference what race you are
when it comes down to the music. If you have a feel for the music,that is really all that matters.[/quote]

I can't actually work out what your point is meant to be, which I imagine is not helping the OP who is trying to find a solid argument or viewpoint to build his essay around.

Edited January 2, 2011 by skej21

[Doddy]

I think I've worded my first post badly by being tired when posting.

What I'm meaning is when it comes down to the music it doesn't matter what race the artist is. The OP asked if you had to be 'african-american' to be accepted as an authentic neo soul artist,and the answer is obviously no.

[MattCvijan]

[quote name='risingson' post='1075050' date='Jan 2 2011, 10:07 AM']I think D'Angelo, Erykah Badu, Common, Mos Def, Raphael Saadiq, ?uestlove and alike wanted to set a bit of a new precedent within a community that was a little bogged down in the throes of modern technology. All that they did was take a type of music that had waned in popularity and turned it on its head by applying everything they loved about hip hop and modern R&B.

It's probably worth talking about the fact that numerous 'Neo-soul' artists have rejected the term, arguing that their music was simply a product of working in a close-knit group of rappers and musicians for so long, and thus the insular nature of what they were doing resulted in them producing a really unique sound.

What angle are you approaching this essay? Sort of a cause and affect perspective or something a little different?[/quote]


Thank you for this post.

In my dissertation im looking at the link between musical identity and racial/cultural identity, using Neo Soul as a case study.
Neo Soul music appeals to people from all walks of life, racial groups, and cultures, yet it seems that the leading artists in this genre are almost exclusively African Americans... in my dissertation im trying to see if there are reasons for this (is it conscious or just coincidence? are there practices in place that make it difficult for non african american artists to break through in this market etc... Essentially do you have to be an African American to be considered to be an authentic neo soul artist?

Could a white/non black Neo Soul artist be considered authentic, or will they be accused of just imitating? in many ways i guess Joss Stone, Amy Winehouse, Duffy etc etc could be considered "soul artists" yet they all got ridiculed as rip off white artists. When Joss Stone got nominated and Winehouse won a MOBO there was alot of resentment amongst the black community.

I think that image in music is very interesting. another great example is the average white band... white scottsmen...defiantely soul music, yet they had a hard time breaking through the black stereotype, and being considered to be authentic.

What is stopping non black artists from being considered authentic Neo Soul artists? perhaps the reason lies in marketting? is Neo Soul marketted as niche black music?? meaning that unless you look the part, you wont fit in to the market?

[risingson]

[quote name='MattCvijan' post='1075261' date='Jan 2 2011, 01:18 PM']Thank you for this post.

In my dissertation im looking at the link between musical identity and racial/cultural identity, using Neo Soul as a case study.
Neo Soul music appeals to people from all walks of life, racial groups, and cultures, yet it seems that the leading artists in this genre are almost exclusively African Americans... in my dissertation im trying to see if there are reasons for this (is it conscious or just coincidence? are there practices in place that make it difficult for non african american artists to break through in this market etc... Essentially do you have to be an African American to be considered to be an authentic neo soul artist?

Could a white/non black Neo Soul artist be considered authentic, or will they be accused of just imitating? in many ways i guess Joss Stone, Amy Winehouse, Duffy etc etc could be considered "soul artists" yet they all got ridiculed as rip off white artists. When Joss Stone got nominated and Winehouse won a MOBO there was alot of resentment amongst the black community.

I think that image in music is very interesting. another great example is the average white band... white scottsmen...defiantely soul music, yet they had a hard time breaking through the black stereotype, and being considered to be authentic.

What is stopping non black artists from being considered authentic Neo Soul artists? perhaps the reason lies in marketting? is Neo Soul marketted as niche black music?? meaning that unless you look the part, you wont fit in to the market?[/quote]


That sounds like a really interesting topic of discussion.

I suppose that whilst we would like to think that racial segregation doesn't exist within a musical frame, it of course does, but to what extent is questionable. Neo-soul is obviously deeply rooted in American black culture, the way certain musicians have been brought up and in certain kinds of neighbourhoods I think might reflect decisions that would ultimately lead them to only involve themselves with musicians that are also black. But also I guess it's got a lot to do with the fact that the musicians that are right to play on their tracks have most likely come from black backgrounds, surrounded with blues, soul, R&B and jazz. It's the nature/nurture argument, and that's purely from a social perspective, before you consider technological, economic or political reasons.

[steve-soar]

[quote name='risingson' post='1075615' date='Jan 2 2011, 07:11 PM']That sounds like a really interesting topic of discussion.

I suppose that whilst we would like to think that racial segregation doesn't exist within a musical frame, it of course does, but to what extent is questionable. Neo-soul is obviously deeply rooted in American black culture, the way certain musicians have been brought up and in certain kinds of neighbourhoods I think might reflect decisions that would ultimately lead them to only involve themselves with musicians that are also black. But also I guess it's got a lot to do with the fact that the musicians that are right to play on their tracks have most likely come from black backgrounds, surrounded with blues, soul, R&B and jazz. It's the nature/nurture argument, and that's purely from a social perspective, before you consider technological, economic or political reasons.[/quote]Great post.