upgrading speakers

[bigjohn]

Hi all.

This is just a thought - I've never done anything like this before - so I'm asking some questions before I'll consider it viable.

I have an Ampeg B3158 Combo. It's really a well constructed heavy Ampeg cab. It tilt's back onto 2 casters, and has handles each side and one on the top for lifting. Great. Not only that - but it fits snug into the boot of my car length, height and breadth (vw polo) - So snug I can shut the boot, and leave the parcel shelf in.

I love it - It's perfect except for one thing. IT JUST NOT BLOODY LOUD ENOUGH. It used to be - until we got a new drummer (for whom I've started wearing earplugs to play with). Now it's no where near. Due to the evils of gig gear sharing - I've seen 4-5 bands use it - all of whom have remarked how much they liked it - it's much louder than you'd think for a 150W solid state combo, especially in big rooms for some reason... and it's never been not loud enough - until now, and since I've started playing with a bastard son of Animal / Moon / Bonham.

Anyway, I digress. It's a biamped 150W B3 head (one 50W and one 100w, although I have a feeling there's 3 power amps sections) - One 8" 50w 4ohm driver and a 15" 150w (according to the parts list) 8ohm Woofer.

For those who don't know what these combos look like - here's a picture.

Mine's an older one - looks far more "classic" Ampeg than that. More like a thin, tall svt15e speaker cab with a built in head.


So - I decided to get a new rig. I've decided I want an svt3-pro, which is good. That bit's done. (I think!)

Now the problem comes with the cab. I would really like to be able fit a cab in the boot of my car - parcel shelf down.

So - I got to thinking - Why not take the head out of my B3158. An svt3-pro head might even fit the hole left, I've checked the dimensions and it's pretty close...

Then replace the 15" and 8" speakers with new 8ohm ones - making it a 4ohm cab and getting the full 450W from the svt.


I reckon the combo is worth £250-£300 - it's in really good nick. Which would be enough to put towards an ampeg b15 and some sort of 2x10.

If I did the upgrades, the speakers would cost about £100?? which would be about the same price as me selling the combo and buying 2 new cabs (£350-£400). But then I'd be stuck with transportation issues.

So basically the choice is -

1) Upgrade the speakers - have no transport problems, not have to find a buyer for the combo, not have to find new cabs - only have a 15" and 8"
2) Sell the combo - buy 2 cabs - have transport issues, have to do all the buying and selling, driving and picking stuff up - have a 15" and two 10s (and have gear that's built to do what I'm using it for!)


Does anyone think upgrading the speakers is a good idea? Or am I just being a tosser?


Please be blunt.


Cheers

John

[bremen]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='122732' date='Jan 18 2008, 11:10 AM']Then replace the 15" and 8" speakers with new 8ohm ones - making it a 4ohm cab and getting the full 450W from the svt.[/quote]

You wouldn't want to be putting half the amp's power into the 8" mid range speaker though, it's designed to be used bi-amped and would probably die if you fed it big bass. So you'd still need to get a 50W-ish amp and a crossover, and just drive the 15 from the svt. It seems a shame to butcher a piece of kit that you like anyway.

You could keep it as is and add a 15 and a power amp to beef it up when needed...or have a word with Bill Fitzmaurice, who specialises in loud, portable speakers: www.billfitzmaurice.com/

[bigjohn]

Thanks for replying! - I had a horrible thought this would be something that no-one would have anything to say about!

[quote name='bremen' post='122740' date='Jan 18 2008, 11:25 AM']You wouldn't want to be putting half the amp's power into the 8" mid range speaker though, it's designed to be used bi-amped and would probably die if you fed it big bass.[/quote]

What about if I replaced the 8" with some thing like this [url="http://www.bluearan.co.uk/menu/index.php?id=BAC8PS21&product=B!amp!C_8PS21_8!dquote!_200W_Low_Frequency_Driver_8Ohm&browsemode=category"]8" 8ohm 200W low frequency driver[/url] ?

[quote name='bremen' post='122740' date='Jan 18 2008, 11:25 AM']It seems a shame to butcher a piece of kit that you like anyway.[/quote]

Totally - I don't want to do anything irreversible - and it's either this or selling it.

The amp slides straight out and my well be the right size for a rackmount head - if not it could just be empty. I'd be able to change the speakers back if I wanted.

Edited January 18, 2008 by bigjohn

[The Burpster]

Being a believer in (within reason) tweaking stuff to make it fullfill your requirements I say "go for it" The fact you are well attached to teh unit means a lot. If teh new amp fits in then do the speakers.

+. you can leave it set up. no lugging lots pf cables around.

you can lug it in your car easily.

with careful selection you put in new speakers that will get the best out of it.

You could end up with a Mean fother muckin' custom built combo....



-. You have to lug the whole thing 'round even for practice.

It may not as excellent as an off the shelf set up straight away.... (you may need to experiment a bit!)

It wont have a specific 2ndhand value as it does now (not that that should be a porblem)

[bremen]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='122762' date='Jan 18 2008, 11:46 AM']Thanks for replying! - I had a horrible thought this would be something that no-one would have anything to say about!



What about if I replaced the 8" with some thing like this [url="http://www.bluearan.co.uk/menu/index.php?id=BAC8PS21&product=B!amp!C_8PS21_8!dquote!_200W_Low_Frequency_Driver_8Ohm&browsemode=category"]8" 8ohm 200W low frequency driver[/url] ?[/quote]

Might work. But I imagine the existing 8" unit would be in its own compartment, so there's no telling what it'd sound like with bass going through it.



[quote]Totally - I don't want to do anything irreversible - and it's either this or selling it.

The amp slides straight out and my well be the right size for a rackmount head - if not it could just be empty. I'd be able to change the speakers back if I wanted.[/quote]

sure, you could always restore it if it didn't work. What did you have in mind for the new 15? Bill recommended these
[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/eminence_kappalite_3015lf.htm"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/eminence_kappalite_3015lf.htm[/url]
and I haven't been disappointed. Amazingly lighweight too.

I use one with an 8", a crossover and a pair of 220W amps. It just fits in a car boot. I have a second 15" that I add for those occasions when trousers must be fllapped. I reckon bi-amping is an efficient way to use power.

[alexclaber]

I'm not really sure what to say. Whatever speakers you put in there, you will need to run them with a crossover, so the 8" is a mid and the 15" is a woofer. There are practically no 4 ohm 15" woofers on the market so your SVT3 will be driving an 8 ohm load, combine that with the SVT3 being a particularly quiet head for the money and any gain in SPL is likely to be minimal. Because your combo is biamped and is pretty big it will be a lot louder than a normal 150W combo.

The combo is not the problem - your drummer is. Buy him some lighter sticks or offer him the alternative of helping buy you a louder bass rig. Take advantage of room acoustics to make your combo louder, by always placing it against a solid wall or preferably in a corner. If that fails, consider an 8 ohm 15" extension cab - I presume the LF amp will drive a 4 ohm load. That'll get you another 6dB which is a useful amount.

Alex

[bigjohn]

[quote name='bremen' post='122780' date='Jan 18 2008, 12:21 PM']Might work. But I imagine the existing 8" unit would be in its own compartment, so there's no telling what it'd sound like with bass going through it.





sure, you could always restore it if it didn't work. What did you have in mind for the new 15? Bill recommended these
[url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/eminence_kappalite_3015lf.htm"]http://www.thomann.de/gb/eminence_kappalite_3015lf.htm[/url]
and I haven't been disappointed. Amazingly lighweight too.

I use one with an 8", a crossover and a pair of 220W amps. It just fits in a car boot. I have a second 15" that I add for those occasions when trousers must be fllapped. I reckon bi-amping is an efficient way to use power.[/quote]

Was thinking about a 200w ampeg speaker [url="http://www.thomann.de/gb/ampeg_ersatzbasslautsprecher_ba115.htm"]b115 speaker[/url] to try and keep it ampeg - but I hadn't thought that far...

[bremen]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='122788' date='Jan 18 2008, 12:32 PM']I'm not really sure what to say. Whatever speakers you put in there, you will need to run them with a crossover, so the 8" is a mid and the 15" is a woofer. There are practically no 4 ohm 15" woofers on the market so your SVT3 will be driving an 8 ohm load, combine that with the SVT3 being a particularly quiet head for the money and any gain in SPL is likely to be minimal. Because your combo is biamped and is pretty big it will be a lot louder than a normal 150W combo.[/quote]

+1

[quote]The combo is not the problem - your drummer is. Buy him some lighter sticks or offer him the alternative of helping buy you a louder bass rig. Take advantage of room acoustics to make your combo louder, by always placing it against a solid wall or preferably in a corner. If that fails, consider an 8 ohm 15" extension cab - I presume the LF amp will drive a 4 ohm load. That'll get you another 6dB which is a useful amount.

Alex[/quote]

I wouldn't risk asking an amp designed for 8 ohms to run into 4. It wouldn't double the power anyway, unless it had a huge power supply. Might add +2 or 3dB. I'd add a 15" cab with its own power amp.

[bigjohn]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='122788' date='Jan 18 2008, 12:32 PM']I'm not really sure what to say. Whatever speakers you put in there, you will need to run them with a crossover, so the 8" is a mid and the 15" is a woofer. There are practically no 4 ohm 15" woofers on the market so your SVT3 will be driving an 8 ohm load, combine that with the SVT3 being a particularly quiet head for the money and any gain in SPL is likely to be minimal. Because your combo is biamped and is pretty big it will be a lot louder than a normal 150W combo.

The combo is not the problem - your drummer is. Buy him some lighter sticks or offer him the alternative of helping buy you a louder bass rig. Take advantage of room acoustics to make your combo louder, by always placing it against a solid wall or preferably in a corner. If that fails, consider an 8 ohm 15" extension cab - I presume the LF amp will drive a 4 ohm load. That'll get you another 6dB which is a useful amount.

Alex[/quote]


I defer to your greater knowledge. I have little on these matters.

My thinking was this though.

The 15" is the same as a b15cab

Running a 15" and a 2x10 would get full power from the amp - 2x10s are 16ohm 100w speakers - isn't that the same load as an 8ohm 200W 8" speaker? Are you saying that running bass through an 8" speaker will just sound sh*t?

I understand an 8" and a 15" wouldn't be anywhere anywhere near as loud and a 15 and 2x10s. But it would be far more portable.


New drummer is really good - Don't want to curtail him!

Not sure the LF amp will drive an extension - Only thing I know about impedance is that you need the minimum!

Edited January 18, 2008 by bigjohn

[bremen]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='122806' date='Jan 18 2008, 12:55 PM']I defer to your greater knowledge. I have little on these matters.

My thinking was this though.

The 15" is the same as a b15cab

So running a 2x10 would get full power from the amp - Those 10s are 16ohm 100w speakers - isn't that the same load as a 8ohm 200W 8" speaker?[/quote]

yes.

[quote]Are you saying that running bass through an 8" speaker will just sound sh*t?[/quote]

probably. Some 82 speakers are designed for bass; the one in your combo almost certainly isn't.

[quote]I understand it wouldn't be anywhere anywhere near as loud and a 15 and 2X10s. But it would be far more portable.


New drummer is really good - Don't want to curtail him!

Not sure the LF amp will drive an extension - Only thing I know about impedance is that you need the minimum![/quote]

I really wouldn't risk trying to run it into 4 ohms unless it's got a nice friendly label on it saying 'please run me into 4 ohms'.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='122806' date='Jan 18 2008, 12:55 PM']So running a 2x10 would get full power from the amp - Those 10s are 16ohm 100w speakers - isn't that the same load as a 8ohm 200W 8" speaker? Are you saying that running bass through an 8" speaker will just sound sh*t?[/quote]

No, I'm saying that with the huge difference in sensitivity between an 8" and 15" woofer, you simply won't hear the 8". Far better to leave the 8" as a midrange speaker which will make it louder as when the LF amp runs out of power the HF amp will still be running clean.

[quote name='bigjohn' post='122806' date='Jan 18 2008, 12:55 PM']New drummer is really good - Don't want to curtail him![/quote]

It isn't curtailing, it's learning about dynamics. I bet, if he's as loud as you say he is, that his hands are drowning out his right foot anyway.

[quote name='bigjohn' post='122806' date='Jan 18 2008, 12:55 PM']Not sure the LF amp will drive an extension - Only thing I know about impedance is that you need the minimum![/quote]

If it will then that's your problem solved.

Upgrading the speakers could get more from the combo but only if you have enough power to take advantage of them. I'm actually planning a DIY cab with 15" woofer and 6" mid and similar dimensions to your combo but I'll be driving each speaker with 550W from a big power amp. But once you're going down that road you might as well start from scratch.

Alex

[bigjohn]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='122845' date='Jan 18 2008, 01:37 PM']It isn't curtailing, it's learning about dynamics. I bet, if he's as loud as you say he is, that his hands are drowning out his right foot anyway.[/quote]


I know what you mean - He's been playing drums a long time though - a lot more of an experienced and successful musician than me. His bass drum isn't drowned out - it's a huge Ludwig thing. Just that when he's loud, it's so very, very loud!



Very appreciative of your input here.

What about modding the cabinet and fitting 2x10s along with the 15?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='bremen' post='122802' date='Jan 18 2008, 12:52 PM']wouldn't risk asking an amp designed for 8 ohms to run into 4. It wouldn't double the power anyway, unless it had a huge power supply. Might add +2 or 3dB. I'd add a 15" cab with its own power amp.[/quote]

I wasn't expecting most of the gain in SPL to come from the extra power of a 4 ohm load, I was expecting more SPL from the adding sensitivity of two 15" woofers working in unison.

[quote name='bigjohn' post='122852' date='Jan 18 2008, 01:46 PM']I know what you mean - He's been playing drums a long time though - a lot more of an experienced and successful musician than me. His bass drum isn't drowned out - it's a huge Ludwig thing. Just that when he's loud, it's so very, very loud![/quote]

My drummer uses a huge Vistalite with 26" kick for gigs because it's so loud so I know what you mean. But for rehearsals and recording he uses much smaller quieter kits.

[quote name='bigjohn' post='122852' date='Jan 18 2008, 01:46 PM']What about modding the cabinet and fitting 2x10s along with the 15?[/quote]

Not a good idea. The reason your combo is loud is because the 15" woofer is operating in a large air space - compromise that by squeezing other speakers in there, which will have to be in a separate cab with its own port, and you'll lose all the benefit.

Alex

[bigjohn]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='122883' date='Jan 18 2008, 02:28 PM']My drummer uses a huge Vistalite with 26" kick for gigs because it's so loud so I know what you mean. But for rehearsals and recording he uses much smaller quieter kits.[/quote]

No such luck! although we've only rehearsed a few times - He's the replacement. I do know he's not using any toms with us - which he usually does - so everything is snare, kick or cymbal. It's loud. I really like it though - don't mind it being like at all - just my amp doesn't keep up!

We're a 3 piece so it's easier to get quite loud and aggressive without it getting messy.

[quote name='alexclaber' post='122883' date='Jan 18 2008, 02:28 PM']Not a good idea. The reason your combo is loud is because the 15" woofer is operating in a large air space - compromise that by squeezing other speakers in there, which will have to be in a separate cab with its own port, and you'll lose all the benefit.[/quote]

I catcha drift.


My boot space is the real problem. As it is - I'm only gonna get one cab in it. And even the smallest ampeg cab - the b15 will require me to take out the parcel shelf. Is 8ohm - so I'll only get 275w out of the head - into a 200w speaker


What about squeezing one 10" in there?

Edited January 18, 2008 by bigjohn

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='122806' date='Jan 18 2008, 07:55 AM']Running a 15" and a 2x10 would get full power from the amp -[/quote]'Getting full power from the amp' is by and large a wasted effort. If you double the amp's output you'll at best get an additional 3dB, which is audible, but just. Buggering up a combo will only make it valueless. If 150 watts into 1x15 isn't enough 300 watts into 2x15, or the equivalent thereof, is the minimum you need to make the change worthwhile. Either sell the combo and get a big rig or get the drummer the aforementioned smaller sticks, and perhaps a whack or two upside the head.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='122732' date='Jan 18 2008, 11:10 AM']...it's much louder than you'd think for a 150W solid state combo, especially in big rooms for some reason...[/quote]

This suggests that in smaller venues you are fighting the acoustics. Get the combo backed up into a corner and then tilt it back so the 8" mid is pointed more towards your head. Try that next rehearsal, you may be pleasantly surprised!

Also, where is the drummer positioning himself relative to the rest of the band? The closer he is to the guitar and bass amps, the louder he'll play.

You'll get more SPL from intelligent use of acoustics than from doubling the size of your rig.

Alex

[bigjohn]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='122902' date='Jan 18 2008, 03:08 PM']'Getting full power from the amp' is by and large a wasted effort. If you double the amp's output you'll at best get an additional 3dB, which is audible, but just. Buggering up a combo will only make it valueless. If 150 watts into 1x15 isn't enough 300 watts into 2x15, or the equivalent thereof, is the minimum you need to make the change worthwhile. Either sell the combo and get a big rig or get the drummer the aforementioned smaller sticks, and perhaps a whack or two upside the head.[/quote]


Hi Bill,

Do you think a cabinet of 21" wide, 35" high, 15" deep is big enough to get 2x15s in?

If I was to build one or have one made?

I think your website answers me there...

[url="http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/Omni10.html"]omni 10[/url] is 16"x20"x26

26" high, 20 wide, and 16" deep? Which should (just) fit in my boot?

Is a 2x12?

Is there any point me loading one of these with 2x200w 8ohm 12" and powering that with an svt3-pro?

Would that be "louder" than what I've got?

Edited January 18, 2008 by bigjohn

[bigjohn]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='122904' date='Jan 18 2008, 03:11 PM']This suggests that in smaller venues you are fighting the acoustics. Get the combo backed up into a corner and then tilt it back so the 8" mid is pointed more towards your head. Try that next rehearsal, you may be pleasantly surprised!

Also, where is the drummer positioning himself relative to the rest of the band? The closer he is to the guitar and bass amps, the louder he'll play.

You'll get more SPL from intelligent use of acoustics than from doubling the size of your rig.

Alex[/quote]

I do back it up against a wall in rehearsal - and I've put it against the wall behind the drummer - so he was about 4 foot away from the 8" - he complained he couldn't hear it - and to honest neither could I.

I've done no gigs with this drummer yet - so I can't comment on that situation.

In smaller rooms it seems to struggle. We used to rehearse in an old cinema - in rooms with high ceilings it produces a much "bigger" sound.

Edited January 18, 2008 by bigjohn

[alexclaber]

If I were you I wouldn't get an SVT3 because I think they're way overpriced. I'd look at the various rackmount Ampegs preamps (if that's your preferred tone) and a lightweight power amp. If you buy used or hunt for new bargains you'll get lots more power for less money than the SVT3.

The maximum dimensions are too small for a 2x15" IMO. However you could make a nice 1x15" plus midrange (I'd use the Eighteen Sound 6ND410) which would be both very light and compact enough.

Alex

[bigjohn]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='122919' date='Jan 18 2008, 03:40 PM']If I were you I wouldn't get an SVT3 because I think they're way overpriced. I'd look at the various rackmount Ampegs preamps (if that's your preferred tone) and a lightweight power amp. If you buy used or hunt for new bargains you'll get lots more power for less money than the SVT3.

The maximum dimensions are too small for a 2x15" IMO. However you could make a nice 1x15" plus midrange (I'd use the Eighteen Sound 6ND410) which would be both very light and compact enough.

Alex[/quote]

I've been thinking about a 2nd hand one - They go on here for £350 - £450 usually flightcased. Which I think is ok for a 450W ampeg with a 5 valve pre. They're also reliable - they've been making them for ages and they're ampeg's best seller.

I do like ampegs, I always have - I like the tone, like the build quality. When I think bass amp - I think ampeg! perhaps I've been brainwashed!

the SVT3 might not be the loudest, but surely 450w sould be loud enough to compete with a non-mic'd drummer?

What I've gleaned from this thread, it seems to me it's about cabinet efficiency anyhow isn't it?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='122908' date='Jan 18 2008, 10:17 AM']Hi Bill,

Do you think a cabinet of 21" wide, 35" high, 15" deep is big enough to get 2x15s in?

If I was to build one or have one made?

I think your website answers me there...

[url="http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/Omni10.html"]omni 10[/url] is 16"x20"x26

26" high, 20 wide, and 16" deep? Which should (just) fit in my boot?

Is a 2x12?

Is there any point me loading one of these with 2x200w 8ohm 12" and powering that with an svt3-pro?

Would that be "louder" than what I've got?[/quote]
Cabinet design is a far more complicated process than deciding on an arbitrary cabinet volume and then stuffing as many drivers as possible into it. Not that it isn't done that way, most commercial cabs are in fact, but it's not the right way. The best place to get specific answers vis-a-vis my cabs is on my forum.

[bremen]

[quote name='bigjohn' post='122943' date='Jan 18 2008, 04:24 PM']What I've gleaned from this thread, it seems to me it's about cabinet efficiency anyhow isn't it?[/quote]

Have you looked at www.billfitzmaurice.com yet?

[bigjohn]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='122949' date='Jan 18 2008, 04:28 PM']Cabinet design is a far more complicated process than deciding on an arbitrary cabinet volume and then stuffing as many drivers as possible into it. Not that it isn't done that way, most commercial cabs are in fact, but it's not the right way. The best place to get specific answers vis-a-vis my cabs is on my forum.[/quote]

I've just had a look round, where do I start?!!

Ok - I've registered. I am very interested in doing things the right way. I'm always have the same conversation with my own clients and customers. Right way or the highway

[bigjohn]

[quote name='bremen' post='122957' date='Jan 18 2008, 04:38 PM']Have you looked at www.billfitzmaurice.com yet?[/quote]

Aye. I'm on there now.

[bigjohn]

A new twist in the plot...

I've blown the head in my B3158 requiring a rebuild of the power amp section - for which I've been quoted £110.

So there goes the option of selling it then!