The 'How' of learning?

[Tandro]

Hi BC. So I've decided that I actually really want to learn 'music', and be able to play bass proficiently. But now my problem is how do I achieve this? Now before you all unanimously say, "Err, pick up the bass and practice...duh!", I need to know _how_ to practice. What you say?

First, my thoughts on it. Personally I would love to take lessons, but its not possible. Realistically, I can get 60 minutes give or take of solid bass time everyday. Thats precious time I want to spend _very_ wisely. The next thing is that I want to set some type of achievable goals and time frame or I know I just won't get anywhere any time soon. So I want to look back in 12 months and see some real progress (whatever that realistically is).

I guess I'm just looking for any thoughts from you out there, because what I think I need to do may not be the best thing and I could just waste my time. Any tutors who can chime in would be really appreciated. I'm at an average bass playing level in that I can play a tune if I learnt it, but I don't 'understand' what I'm doing. I would love to be able to just jam and improvise, but thats some magical thing I think you need a sprinkle of pixie dust for.

I kind of figure the following are the main areas it could encompass(?):

Harmony and Theory - stuff like scales, arpegios?
Aural - learn my intervals, what else?
sight reading - I want to be comfortable with this. Using 'Simplified Sight Reading For Bass' book now and I'm understanding rhythm/timing better
Techniques - slap and pop, double thumb etc.
Learn Songs - Besides helping with 'playing' practice, break it down into its parts to understand how the bass works with it?
Transcribe - should help with the aural abilities and the understanding of it in context?

If the above is vaguely right, how the heck do I fit it that in to 60 minutes a day? Just work on one thing for a month straight until I reach a certain point? Or 20 minutes of this, 10 of that? Do Major's Bass Boot camp only till I reach the end? I dunno. Sorry for the long post. Your personal experience greatly welcome. Thanks.

[funkle]

Get a teacher!

They'll get you to work on the things you need to work on (as opposed to the things you THINK you need to work on), and will greatly spped up any proces of learning you intend to undertake. This is undoubtedly the most improtant step you can take. You will then know how to spend that vital 60 mins per day.

I spent a lot of money/time studying with Jeff Berlin. It was worth it.

Pete

[essexbasscat]

You could do a lot worse than study GCSE music. While this will not directly improve your skill of playing the bass, it will aid a greater understanding of music and how the bass and other instruments fit into the overall picture. As a consequence, you will also learn the rudiments of reading music, which will again aid your musicianship on an ongoing basis.

A music tutor at some point will also be very helpful, as they will aid your understanding the finer points of expressing yourself musically, whichever instrument you play.

Good luck with your musical career, whatever you decide to do

T

Edited January 3, 2011 by essexbasscat

[Tandro]

I would love to get a teacher and was going to start looking, but things are coming up and for the sake of saving my pennies this might not be possible (I'm not a young Spring chicken anymore and I got responsibilities). As an economical spin to it, I was even toying with the idea of doing a few lessons just to 'get me on the right track' and get some advice on what I need to do.

What about a 1 hour lesson every other week, is that too little? I dunno if I can even swing that. The going rate seems to be around £25-30 an hour? (As I'm out in West London, I had called Techmusicschool and they quoted £40 an hour, which seems a bit high).

[funkle]

[quote name='Tandro' post='1076386' date='Jan 3 2011, 03:49 PM']I would love to get a teacher and was going to start looking, but things are coming up and for the sake of saving my pennies this might not be possible (I'm not a young Spring chicken anymore and I got responsibilities). As an economical spin to it, I was even toying with the idea of doing a few lessons just to 'get me on the right track' and get some advice on what I need to do.

What about a 1 hour lesson every other week, is that too little? I dunno if I can even swing that. The going rate seems to be around £25-30 an hour? (As I'm out in West London, I had called Techmusicschool and they quoted £40 an hour, which seems a bit high).[/quote]

An hour a week should give you plenty of material. Though it depends upon the teacher, as well as how much you are able to practice. If you can't practice that often, once every two weeks might give you enough material to work on.

A good teacher is worth the money. A good teacher wil focus on: reading written music (no tab), chord charts, functional harmony/analysis, ear training/solfege, chord tones + (later on) tensions, chord subs (also later), correctly interpreting rhythms + basslines correct for a variety of styles. Real musical information, in other words.

Slap you can teach yourself - most situations don't call for it. Transcribing is excellent stuff to do and can also be done alone (though learning to notate everything can take some time, and it's helpful to get others to check it over).

You can teach yourself only so far, then you need someone to shed some light on what you don't know you don't know.

Best of luck.

Pete

[funkle]

Getting into 'deep practice' when you practice and how to practice correctly is another topic in itself. What I took away from studying with Jeff was:

1. Practice slowly - forget the metronome - you are allowed to practice 'out of tempo' as long as you still count your timings properly - sorry, this is easier to show than it is to talk about.
2. Mistakes are useful, and not be feared - when you make a mistake, slow down and go over the material so that it you get it right - correct your mistakes straight away.
3. Don't noodle (When I start noodling, I know it's time for a break) - it's fun but it's not practice.
4. Don't worry about speed. If you practice slowly and correctly, speed will eventually come on its own. It is not an end in itself.
5. Many things you practice will not be directly applicable to a gig, but are nonetheless important building blocks to 'regard'. Even if you don't understand why you are 'regarding' this information, do it because your teacher tells you to.

There's more, but that's all I can get down here for now. There's some great info in 'The Talent Code' by Daniel Coyle on 'deep practice' and all of it sounds like what 'good practice' feels like to me, when I'm 'in the zone'.

Enjoy.

Pete

[JakeBrownBass]

I can't recommend [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Patterns-Jazz-Theory-Composition-Improvisation/dp/0769230172/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1294072510&sr=8-2"]THIS BOOK[/url] enough.

Also,

[url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Improvisers-Bass-Method-Chuck-Sher/dp/0961470100/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1294072586&sr=1-1"]THIS ONE[/url]

Interms of trying to fit everything into an hour,

The easiest way i've found is pick, say 15mins per each activity.

So if you have 2 hours worth of practice material, spread it over 2 days.

Set a timer so you don't go over the 15 minute slot and stop when it hits that time & move on.

The above method has really helped me to stop dwelling on certain exercise & not putting enough time in others.

Hope some of that stuff helps.

Jake

[Bilbo]

You need to understand that learning a musical instrument is an incremental thing and that you can't learn it all at once. Your list of things to do is only the start and there are a million other things you will need to deal with as time goes on. My adivce? Simple. Learn to read music - so much will come from that and it will save you time later on.

[essexbasscat]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1076783' date='Jan 3 2011, 09:12 PM']You need to understand that learning a musical instrument is an incremental thing and that you can't learn it all at once. Your list of things to do is only the start and there are a million other things you will need to deal with as time goes on. My adivce? Simple. Learn to read music - so much will come from that and it will save you time later on.[/quote]


Yes, couldn't agree more

[TKenrick]

Here are some things that I've found helpful in terms of designing practice routines for myself and my students:

1. Set yourself some clear, achievable playing goals - these will depend heavily on the genre(s) of music that you're passionate about and the players that you admire.

2. As Jake said, practice in 15 minute blocks with short breaks in between. This stops your brain/muscles from getting overloaded and means that you retain more information, making your practice time more effective. Think [i]quality[/i], not quantity.

3. Keep a practice diary, noting everything you practice each day. Not only does this help you remember what keys/tempo you practiced yesterday, it also helps you to measure your progress over the course of weeks/months/years.

4. Become content with making small improvements in your playing. Progress will not be immediate, and sometimes it's hard to realise that your playing is developing. Don't beat yourself up about making mistakes, they're an essential part of practicing (funkle's post said this and more in a much better way...)

5. Keep reviewing your practice routine to evaluate what works and what doesn't, then adjust accordingly.


In terms of areas to study, I'd suggest splitting your 60 minutes into quarters and tackling technique, harmony, reading and transcription. Some BCers will know I'm a staunch advocate of the benefits of transcription as it acts as it helps to develop your skills in hearing and writing music, builds repertoire and provides an excellent basis for developing your own musical vocabulary.


This is all just opinion, and it seems like you're on the right track already, especially regarding your attitude towards practicing.


[quote name='Tandro' post='1076386' date='Jan 3 2011, 03:49 PM']What about a 1 hour lesson every other week, is that too little? I dunno if I can even swing that. The going rate seems to be around £25-30 an hour? (As I'm out in West London, I had called Techmusicschool and they quoted £40 an hour, which seems a bit high).[/quote]

I'm based in Chiswick, so if you have questions on any of this stuff then feel free to give me a shout.


Tom

[Doddy]

If you have an hour a day,then use one of those days for lessons. Believe me,it'll make a world of difference to
your playing-I still take lessons when I can.
I've never been one to structure my practice,ever.I'm the kind who can sit down with a book or an idea and work on it
for hours.I'm not big on the timer idea-If you are really getting into a certain aspect,you don't want to cut it short just
because you think you should move on to something else.
If you check out a book like 'Chord Studies for Electric Bass' you'll learn how to read (you'd have to) and get a solid
knowledge of arpeggios at the same time. Great!
Don't try to force things to improve. It may take you a few hours,days or months to understand some things and to
see an improvement,but don't worry about it-It'll come. Don't try to play everything fast either-concentrate on playing
or reading things correctly first.Speed will come naturally over time.
I will advise you to get your reading together.Even if you never use it on a gig,it will open up a whole world of information
for you to study.
It was mentioned earlier about not noodling. I tell my students that if they are getting frustrated with an exercise or concept,
to take a few minutes to play a song or to just play and have fun,before returning to the exercise later.You don't want to get
so annoyed with something that it puts you off playing the instrument.

[Tandro]

Hi all,

Firstly thanks for all the input so far. Very appreciated. I'll try to work in the various points everyone has raised in practice and see what works for me, but the main points that are repeated are:
1) Get some tuition
2) Learn to read music

I do really want structured lessons badly but thought it not possible. I'm rethinking this now, even if it is only every fortnight. As regards reading, this was my goal last year. I'm not totally in the dark as thanks to my parents I used to do piano when I was young. You would think then that when I told myself I would having this reading thing down by end of year, I would be OK. Turns out I still suck (and looking at sixteenth notes is scary!). Hence the reason I originally stated that I need to set achievable goals in set time frames, cause I feel I just did not get anywhere last year (and I didn't). Just wondering what my 'achievable goals and set time frames' should be? Should I aim for learning an arpegio all over the neck at 100bpm in 4 weeks, or something like transcribe one song every fortnight?

I am starting to use Musescore. I am not too sure with figuring out the timing and rests of notes in a piece I figure out so I put it in musescore and then playback to see if it sounds right.

About the GCSE music, are there any other things applicable to study. What about these Rockschool Bass grades I see about a bit, worthwhile at all?

Been checking out the recommended books at online stores. I am a sucker for a book, but I'm afraid it won't get used...like a lot of my other books. I will undoubtedly buy them over the coming months, but I think I need to stick to a 'one book until you finish it' rule or something.

Even though I knew it already, it was a bit daunting when as Bilbo put it "there are a million other things you will need to deal with", but I'm not discouraged looking at the mountain. I know it will take a while, I just actually want to start getting there eventually.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Tandro' post='1078151' date='Jan 5 2011, 01:26 AM']Just wondering what my 'achievable goals and set time frames' should be? Should I aim for learning an arpegio all over the neck at 100bpm in 4 weeks, or something like transcribe one song every fortnight?[/quote]

I wouldn't worry too much about this because everyone learns at a different rate. Someone may be able to nail arpeggios at 100bpm
in 10 minutes,while another may take 10 weeks,but they both get there in the end.The important thing is that you ultimately can play
it and (importantly)understand it-the time period is less important when you are in the practice room.
It's the same with transcribing-initially it may take you a while to write out a simple line,but with practice you'll progress on to more
challenging pieces and you'll be able to write those simple lines relatively quickly.

[Fat Rich]

Sounds daft but I'd say learn the names of the notes on the neck if you haven't already!

And I mean really learn them so you don't have to think about any of them or have to count frets and work up or down from familiar notes.

If you haven't got this down then everything else becomes a struggle and you'll be wasting precious time.

[Doddy]

[quote name='Fat Rich' post='1078352' date='Jan 5 2011, 10:54 AM']Sounds daft but I'd say learn the names of the notes on the neck if you haven't already!

And I mean really learn them so you don't have to think about any of them or have to count frets and work up or down from familiar notes.

If you haven't got this down then everything else becomes a struggle and you'll be wasting precious time.[/quote]

It doesn't sound daft at all. There are so many players who can't name the notes on the 'board,even those who have been playing for quite a while. To me this is a very basic part of learning the instrument.

[Faithless]

I see some rather good advice on a rather frequent question - so why not "sticky" this thread?

Edited January 5, 2011 by Faithless

[funkle]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1078383' date='Jan 5 2011, 11:12 AM']It doesn't sound daft at all. There are so many players who can't name the notes on the 'board,even those who have been playing for quite a while. To me this is a very basic part of learning the instrument.[/quote]

I agree. I would point out that you will learn the notes on the neck reasonably quickly whilst practicing the right sorts of exercises, e.g. those found in Chord Studies for Electric Bass (or the older version of the same book, Chord Studies for Trombone). My favourite way to do these is to take an exercise and move it through all 12 keys. You can't fail to learn the neck that way...

[url="http://www.scribd.com/doc/25321271/Chord-Studies-for-Trombone-1968-by-Phil-Wilson-and-Joseph-Viola"]http://www.scribd.com/doc/25321271/Chord-S...nd-Joseph-Viola[/url]

I've done everything up to and including 'A' in all 12 keys, and am currently working on a lot of other Charlie Banacos exercises as opposed to this stuff, but I intend to return to this and finish off everything from Ab onwards as time allows. My neck knowledge isn't perfect but it's a lot better than it used to be.

Pete

[TKenrick]

[quote name='funkle' post='1079223' date='Jan 5 2011, 09:49 PM']I've done everything up to and including 'A' in all 12 keys, and am currently working on a lot of other Charlie Banacos exercises as opposed to this stuff, but I intend to return to this and finish off everything from Ab onwards as time allows. My neck knowledge isn't perfect but it's a lot better than it used to be.[/quote]


Am I right in thinking that Charlie Banacos is pretty much the guru when it comes to ear training and jazz improv exercises? Any chance you could shed some light on what the exercises focus on?

[Hamster]

[quote name='Tandro' post='1076386' date='Jan 3 2011, 03:49 PM']I would love to get a teacher[/quote]

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtopic=97672&view=findpost&p=500194"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?s=&sho...st&p=500194[/url]

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showuser=1348"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showuser=1348[/url]

[elom]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1078383' date='Jan 5 2011, 11:12 AM']It doesn't sound daft at all. There are so many players who can't name the notes on the 'board,even those who have been playing for quite a while. To me this is a very basic part of learning the instrument.[/quote]

Okay there's a new years resolution for me! I have been playing for quite a while...

[El Bajo]

I don't like the idea of spending 15 minutes on each area, I tried and I spent an hour just on one thing. It could be that I'm a slow learner or that I get absorbed in it and carry on going. Learning to read music is the key to alot of areas. firstly theres the obvious learning to read standard notation, which then forces you to learn the keycentre of a song. Once you know that and you have your hand resting on the fretboard all those scale drills you did when you first picked up the bass just seem to come alive under your fingers. It just made sense to me. The tricky part about standard notation is not the actual notes but the phrasing and timing, well for me anyway.

Chords are important to learn, if you learn chords then you can start to disect songs, my learning is still ongoing on this one but Ed Friedlands walking bass lines helped me.

With regards to technique, if you've been playing a while and whatever your doing is working then just leave it at that. If its tapping or slapping you're after then just buy abook/or DVD for this one. Chances are if you went to a bass teacher they will refuse to teach you that stuff until you've mastered everything else (mine did). For Bass try Ed Friedlands Slap it, and I also use this you tube channel to learn some riffs:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXfS3HYSiZo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXfS3HYSiZo[/url]

Good luck

[wal4string]

I am sure the following has already been covered by the Major but I will put my thoughts forward.

When it comes to starting to learn reading music and knowing where the notes are on a bass it can often be a case of over looking how logical everything is. I would suggest to begin by learning the one octave scale of C major, a finger a fret with no open strings. Play the scale in what is known as the 2nd position, this is when your 1st finger is placed over the 2nd fret of the bass. To play the first note of the scale play the C using your 2nd finger on the 3rd fret on the A string (the 3rd string, 2nd thickest one) next play the D with your 4th finger on the 5th fret on the same string. The next note E is played with your 1st finger on the 2nd fret of the D string. The F your 2nd finger on the same string and the G your 4th finger on the same string. Move up to the top string and play an A with your 1st finger, then play a B with your 3rd finger and finally an octave C with your 4th finger. If played correctly and your bass is in tune you should be able to hear if right by hearing the Do,Re,Me etc. scale. Practise until you can play this even with your eyes closed and remember the note names C,D,E,F,G,A,B and C. Now when completely comfortable with the above play the same scale of C again only this time start in the 7th position, first finger over the 7th fret, now play the scale of C again with exactly the same fingering as in the first exercise, 2nd finger on the 8th fret of the E string (bottom/thickest string). What you will play are the exact same notes as you played in the first exercise and if both exercises where written down/transcribed they would look identical. Also practise playing from the top note down.

When it comes to learning notation and how to remember what the lines and spaces are, forget every good boy deserves a favour etc. The staff consists of 5 lines and spaces and if a note to be played is higher or lower than this range then what is known as ledger lines are used. So as a starting point remember if a note is written on one ledger line below the staff, this is the note of E, your open bottom string on the bass. And a note written on one ledger line above the staff is a C. This is also the same octave C in the above exercises, the C played with your 4th finger. There are only 7 note names to remember and they are A,B,C,D,E,F and G. So if we where to write down the notes on a staff knowing that an E is written on one ledger line below an F is written underneath the staff a G is written on the bottom line, an A in the next space up etc.

When it comes to learning notation and syncopation I remember looking at the bass line for Whole Lotta Love by Zeppelin and seeing how difficult it looked transcribed even though easy to play, I then found very similar syncopation in other pieces and with a bit of work was soon on my way. Don't get me wrong it is not always easy but it is always enjoyable. I hope this little nugget helps and just remember its not rocket science and if you get half as much pleasure playing as I have then you are in for a good time.

[funkle]

[quote name='TKenrick' post='1079237' date='Jan 5 2011, 10:00 PM']Am I right in thinking that Charlie Banacos is pretty much the guru when it comes to ear training and jazz improv exercises? Any chance you could shed some light on what the exercises focus on?[/quote]

Where to start?

Here's a link to an ear training one: [url="http://www.miles.be/articles/14-the-charlie-banacos-exercise"]http://www.miles.be/articles/14-the-charlie-banacos-exercise[/url]

Here's the link to software to help you do the above one if you don't have a piano: [url="http://www.miles.be/software/4-functional-ear-trainer-basic"]http://www.miles.be/software/4-functional-ear-trainer-basic[/url]

You'll have to move to the next step for the later parts of the above exercise: [url="http://www.miles.be/software/5-functional-ear-trainer-advanced"]http://www.miles.be/software/5-functional-...rainer-advanced[/url]

I would point out I've done a lot of solfege over the last 2-3 years and have only in the last year or so been able to do the first part of the Charlie Banacos exercise of hitting one note then another and correctly naming the interval 99% of the time. This is with the key changing every time I do the exercise, so that 'do' keeps moving. I haven't had time yet to tap into doing 3 notes yet; it's the next step.

In terms of exercises on the instrument, there are a ton. Nonetheless they are awkward to come by; you have to find someone who's studied with Charlie or with one of his students e.g. Jeff Berlin.

An 'early' one would for instance be playing approach notes to all notes of a given chord in all keys: e.g. approaching the root two half steps from below, the from two below and one above, then from two above and one below, then two above and two below, and so on. This would be then repeated for the 3rd, the 5th, the 7th, once again in all keys and for the chord tonality you desire.

Later on the exercises move into tensions, chord pairs, pentatonics, 'hexatonics', and a lot of other fancy stuff that I don't know how to name (see [url="http://www.charliebanacos.com/moreinformation.html)"]http://www.charliebanacos.com/moreinformation.html)[/url]. Scales also feature but are not particularly important in the way that chords are.

When I read through Some of Jerry Bergonzi's stuff, esp vol 6 from his series of books, it looks familiar. Not surprsing, he was a Banacos student. When I read through 'Forward Motion' by Hal Galper, it also looks familiar too.

I get the flavour that 'the good stuff' goes by a lot of different names, but that at the root of it most of it seems to relate to chords and working with chordal material.

I would point out that by no means am I an expert, I am simply a passionate hobbyist as opposed to a working pro. My day job eats time and gets in the way of serious practice at the moment. But I squeeze in the time/gigs where I can.

Pete

[TKenrick]

Many thanks for the comprehensive reply Pete, it's much appreciated. What you've said about the exercises involving different methods of approaching chord tones and tensions definitely sounds familiar, I hadn't realised Jeff Berlin had studied with Banacos but of course that makes a lot of sense now...

In terms of the ear training exercises, I've never really got into solfege in any real depth so will definitely spend some time on that. I've been working on exercises from [url="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hearing-Writing-Music-Professional-Training/dp/0962949671/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1294588475&sr=8-1"] Hearing and Writing Music [/url] for a while as a means of being able to transcribe without an instrument but still have a long way to go.

I totally know what you mean about work getting in the way of serious practice. I'm a full time musician and still find that work interferes with my practicing and takes me away from the things I want to be working on.


Tom

[Faithless]

I was looking after some ear-training material for quite a while now, I definetly will have to give that Banacos exercise a go..