Retailers and email replies

[tom1946]

Hmm
in defence of guitar shops (I retired from owning one) emails very rarely result in a sale because the punter is trying to find the cheapest price. I couldn't ever compete with the likes of 247.com or GAK so what's the point of finding a price? I always answered emails like that with " Sorry I can't compete with the big shops". It's very timewasting too when you have to ring a supplier to check stock & price to discover that you can't compete and the punter never replies and says thanks anyway. If I've had a busy day (usual) I don't get much chance to read emails.

When I did give someone a price they come back and ask you to pricematch with GAK!! Gak often sell stuff cheaper than a small shop can buy it. I always said no to that whether I could or couldn't.

Doing that 8-10 times a day for nothing gets very tedious. If I was serving and the phone rang, depending on what I was doing I would excuse myself and answer it quickly. If I was selling a capo or strings I'd ignore the phone until I'd finished, if someone was trying a guitar out answering the phone isn't a problem.

I was really hot on service in my shop and I had people coming from all over the UK to buy stuff. I can't stand bad service when I go into a shop, there's no excuse for it.

Edited January 5, 2011 by tom1946

[spinynorman]

[quote name='tom1946' post='1078197' date='Jan 5 2011, 07:44 AM']Hmm
in defence of guitar shops (I retired from owning one) emails very rarely result in a sale because the punter is trying to find the cheapest price. I couldn't ever compete with the likes of 247.com or GAK so what's the point of finding a price? I always answered emails like that with " Sorry I can't compete with the big shops". It's very timewasting too when you have to ring a supplier to check stock & price to discover that you can't compete and the punter never replies and says thanks anyway. If I've had a busy day (usual) I don't get much chance to read emails.

When I did give someone a price they come back and ask you to pricematch with GAK!! Gak often sell stuff cheaper than a small shop can buy it. I always said no to that whether I could or couldn't.

Doing that 8-10 times a day for nothing gets very tedious. If I was serving and the phone rang, depending on what I was doing I would excuse myself and answer it quickly. If I was selling a capo or strings I'd ignore the phone until I'd finished, if someone was trying a guitar out answering the phone isn't a problem.

I was really hot on service in my shop and I had people coming from all over the UK to buy stuff. I can't stand bad service when I go into a shop, there's no excuse for it.[/quote]

That response is interesting and I'm puzzled why you didn't see the email enquiry as an opportunity to sell your exceptional service over the pure price advantage of the big shops. Even an email back saying "here's my phone number, give me a call and I'm sure we can work out a good deal for you" would have more chance of success than no reply or "I can't compete".

[spinynorman]

Even people who think they're looking for the lowest price might understand the value of the instrument being checked over, or even set up, before they take it home, and the offer of "the setup will probably need tweaking in a couple of months, just bring it back and we'll do it."

[bumnote]

Anyone here work for PMT?

I e mailed them a week ago about some PJB stuff and they didnt reply.

Phoned them on Tuesday morning and they promised to phone back and Im still waiting

Compare that with Mark at Bass Direct who I emailed at 8.30 on Tues evening and got a reply in 15 minutes, and 2 further responses next morning.

While I do enjoy a bit of haggling, good informed customer service will always help to buid and maintain a loyal customer service. I am far more likely to travel to Warwick than Southend if I want to complete my purchase.

Its not just todays purchase, its the next one, and the next one. I rarely use my local store because over the last 30 odd years, I have found their prices poor, and service indifferent I shudder to think how much money I have spent in other stores and through mail order, although I did get great service from a new guy in there when I bought my daugter an acoustic guitar for christmas.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='bumnote' post='1079506' date='Jan 6 2011, 09:16 AM']Anyone here work for PMT?[/quote]

I think I sufficiently exhausted all options with PMT about 18 months ago. Long story, but they tried to rip me off on a demo Jazz bass, then said theyd get another one in if I wasnt happy, which they didnt. They just polished the old one...same serial etc.

I also tried to order the Orange OBC115 through them, and they wouldnt get me a new one, I had to have the scuffed/marked one that had been used as a seat. Apparently, Orange will not ship new products....total lie. When I rang Orange, they said PMT must have been lying as they would ALWAYS ship fresh amps/cabs no problem.

I didnt buy either item from them in the end.

Never again.

Edited January 6, 2011 by Musicman20

[dlloyd]

[quote name='Chris2112' post='1077710' date='Jan 4 2011, 07:22 PM']Having seen Sterling Ball stomping around the internet I'm not surprised to see that EB don't really care about their customers.[/quote]

On the other hand, Sterling has in the past answered my queries personally, within minutes of me sending an email, thanking me for bringing things to their attention, and sent me free t-shirts and strings.

[martindupras]

I personally think that there are unrealistic expectations from customers, suppliers and shops which result in a lot of dissatisfaction.

It is becoming increasingly difficult for any music store to keep stock, let alone stay alive and compete with online prices.

Online retailers are increasingly relying on price beating to survive.

Customers want everything, at the cheapest price, and right now.

In my mind there is absolutely no doubt where things are going.

1) Any physical store where the staff treat you like sh*t is going to die. I went to a local store recently and was made to wait for three minutes while the only staff there was making plans for the weekend with his mate on the phone. I'm not going there again.

2) Online stores that are not honouring their promise will die a slow painful death. I recently was after a pedal that practically no one in Europe had in stock. However several websites claimed to have stock, even when I phoned them. When I told them I'd place the order as soon as they could read me what it said on the box, they claimed they "couldn't find it." I had a similar story with a bass case that was meant to be in stock and dispatched the same day. Only to find several days later that "they didn't have stock, that was a mistake."

3) For high quality, high price goods, I predict it will become the norm for customers to travel a fair distance for the opportunity to try out and see in person expensive goods. If you're going to spend £2k on a new bass, travelling a hundred miles to a specialist store is probably worthwhile.

In the end, it's all down to perceived value. I will admit that I'm a fussy customer, but at the same time I will happily pay more to support small specialist retailers.

- martin

[ThomBassmonkey]

[quote name='martindupras' post='1080639' date='Jan 7 2011, 12:35 AM']- martin[/quote]

+1 to your whole post.

I'd always rather go and play a bass than have it sent to me without checking it first. Online retailers that claim things are in stock that aren't just lose my trust completely, I recently had a big issue with GAK that involved a cab that was "in stock" but wasn't, also a head I ordered from them, after cancelling everything I had planned for a day to wait in for the delivery, I rang and found out that it hadn't even been sent yet (with some pathetic excuses about weather affecting delivery companies, even though it hadn't left the warehouse).

Generally I buy locally or 2nd hand, so I've not had too many issues with buying unseen. I really hate being ignored though, I find it very disrespectful. Being asked to hold on for a moment while someone gets the phone isn't an issue unless it's a long call and I'm stood about like a lemon, but people who are "working" and just chatting to a mate or on facebook while I'm waiting just makes me feel unimportant to them, which more often than not loses their custom as I don't make a habit of going to shops unless I actually need something (I hate shopping).

[goblin]

I'll give a thumbs up to the customer service of Probag in the US. Been looking for a leather gig bag for a while that's not too expensive, and I emailed them just before christmas. I got nothing back, but that was fair enough as they'd probably shut for christmas. On the 2nd or 3rd I started getting emails from them, and I can't credit just how helpful they are. They've even given me shipping costs to the UK, explained that they are now made in the US instead of Bolivia, hence the slight increase in price, but the quality is increased too. I asked if they could send me a couple of photos, within an hour they were here, along with a word doc of feedback they've recieved. As for import duty they offered to send it as a gift, and just incase they'd put a lower price on the invoice so I don't get hit as hard

Has to be said, as soon as I've got the money in my account, I will be buying in confidence from them!

[theplumber]

[quote name='Marvin' post='1077235' date='Jan 4 2011, 12:58 PM']I personally have a phone phobia. I hate phones - this stems from a job I once had whereby if my personal line rang it was always a problem, hence I associate phones with problems.
But I digress. [/quote]
I can relate to this one.....years ago I worked for a plumbing company.....at nights and weekends I was on a standby rota. Everytime the mobile phone rang it had the nokia tune/ringtone...anytime after that when I heard that nokia tone my heart sank.............

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='Johnston' post='1080817' date='Jan 7 2011, 10:43 AM']The stock issue was one thing I brought up on the business course we done. Now it's all Govt' funded, run and I presume all is taught to a set of guidelines set down so that each agency countrywide teaches the same thing.

One thing we were told was to keep stock as low as possible. For financial reasons, stock control and to lower overheads. with the appearance of 24hr next day delivery the say there is no point in having a lot of stock. Just order it as it's needed.

Now if this is a business model being pushed countrywide to anyone looking advice to set up or to help recover a failing business is it any wonder the country is going tits up. I could get A squier CV not only cheaper, Last I checked it was around £250 free P&P verses £330 but quicker from Thomanns in Germany 6weeks lead time locally verses 3 days.

Too me it's backwards, if you walk into a half empty shop you'll likely think things aren't going to good and of course wonder why. Then notions of bad service or indeed maybe no aftercare if things are going bad. who would use a hop that you can't guarantee is going to keep the strings you want, the first time they run out you'll likely use something else. If you order online and hit 24hr delivery but it takes them 24hr to get it to then send to you would you be happy and use them again?

People are used to using Asda and Tescos and getting their whole shop in one place and it being there ready to lift, even the groceries you can get everything with a click online with no waiting for the bottle of Smirnoff whilst they order it in. and IMO it's going to be a "want" that filters down into everything.[/quote]

I think you've hit at least one nail on the head here; people have become used to convenience and low prices courtesy of supermarkets, major DIY and electronic chains and the internet (I know, I love Amazon), however, there are certain things that really should have more expertise behind the selling of them - musical instruments being a prime example, and here the business plan doesn't work as people are not prepared to pay for that expertise. I'm sure most of the retailers on here are used to doing the whole pitch, demonstration and try out only to be faced with a print out from one of the box shifters and a request to match the price.

[martindupras]

[quote name='Mykesbass' post='1080831' date='Jan 7 2011, 10:54 AM']however, there are certain things that really should have more expertise behind the selling of them - musical instruments being a prime example, and here the business plan doesn't work as people are not prepared to pay for that expertise. I'm sure most of the retailers on here[/quote]

Well yes and no.

I'm not saying that it isn't sometimes the case but it has to do with perceived value.

You can buy a car online, but most people don't, they'd still much rather go to a dealership.

Most people realise that there's no point in buying a laptop from Curry's because it's going to be expensive and sold by people who generally know little about computers.

If a 12 year old asks for an electric guitar for Christmas, the parents are going to look for the cheapest thing, and they will go to a shop and expect to be shown the merchandise, given expert advice and still get the lowest price. It is ultimately up to the retailer whether they will price match anyone. They don't have to, and personally I think that the ones that offer personalised service and aftersales care are in the win for perceived value.

The gear I buy is hard to get, generally expensive and relatively rare. I bought my GK Fusion 550 head brand new from Thomann without even having a chance to try it out because there was no stock anywhere at the time. I would have happily travelled 90 miles for the chance to try one in a store but I couldn't. Thomann offers a money-back guarantee so if I'd decided it wouldn't do, I knew I could send it back. But that's still a lot of pain and hassle and guesswork, which would have easily been avoided if there had been stock somewhere.

I think there is another factor that we need to consider in all this. If you look at things like clothing, CDs and games, the street price can vary quite a lot from the MSRP. Tesco's buying power for instance can allow them to sell for less than a small retailer can buy.

On the other hand, if you look at the street prices of musical equipment, there isn't that kind of variation. Look at the price of Fender instruments, Boss pedals and Marshall amps. I would guess that the biggest variation comes from the variation in the exchange rates, which is why Thomann is sometimes a bargain and sometimes not.

No one is able to undercut the competition by 20% on brand new items (excluding demos and clearance stock.) More generally the variation in price between retailers is in the order of less than 5% which is really marginal. When you factor in shipping the hassle of returns, the shop doesn't seem such bad value.

I have my suspicions that distributors have their share of blame too. A lot of disappointment I've had with physical stores in the past has been with expected stock dates. Many times I've placed a special order at the counter, and witnessed the phone order with the distributor. The dates given have hardly ever been honoured. That's not the fault of the store.

When the Roland VG-99 came out, I wanted to try one out. It's quite an expensive piece of equipment that one doesn't buy lightly. The local Sound Control had one, but refused to let me try it because with the box open it would become a demo and (1) they couldn't return it to the distributor and (2) they couldn't sell it at full price if I didn't buy it. I phoned Roland who denied the whole thing. One of them must be lying, but both of them lost the sale.

On a side note, I was pretty pissed off that some spec information that I needed wasn't on the website, wasn't answered in an email to their tech support, and that no engineer returned the call I was promised when I phoned their Swansea headquarters.

One last thing: I own a lot of guitars and several basses. That's a lot of strings, but since I don't play them all at once I don't change them often so I tend to buy 10-12 packs of guitar strings at a time and 4-5 packs of bass strings, maybe once every 15 months. I would very very very happily buy these at full price at any of my local stores if only so my money goes to them and not online retailers. Guess what? No one stocks Ernie Ball Blue Steels 11-54 or Warwick Black Label 45-135 sets within driving distance from Bristol. I'm not however prepared to go to the store once to place an order and pay a deposit, then come back again at some undetermined date in the future to collect them and pay for the balance. Not when I can order online cheaper and faster.

In other words: I would like to give £250 a year worth of business to any of my local stores, but there is zero incentive for me to do so.

- martin

[Musicman20]

I think we all realise how dramatically the internet has changed modern buying.

The customer has much more power to pick and choose, and EVERY retailer who has an online store NEEDS to reply to emails. Yes, 3/4 of them might not get you a sale, but having deals in writing in an email is MUCH better for me. Plus, it means I dont have to list huge amounts of information.

We are lucky to have bass specialists now like Bass Merchant. If we didnt, we would still be buying from 'general' music shops and probably paying silly money for average instruments.

Quite a few retailers ive dealt with lose business because they dont match. You dont make as much profit? Oh heck....nevermind. You lose a whole sale? Now you're in trouble.

People will always want the best prices, as we are currently fighting against rising VAT and all the other rubbish thats occuring.

I much prefer to develop a relationship with a store, buy everything I can from them, and they help by giving me a great price, and I help by recommending them.

Certain places like Strings Direct etc, will always have the best strings prices.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Musicman20

[Pete Academy]

It's tough for music stores, believe me, but I can see how bad customer service can drive people to go online. However, some people simply think they are getting a bargain online, when it's not always the case. Yesterday someone asked our hi-tech guy to price match something he had seen in another store online. Our guy said he could get it the next day. Turns out that with carriage etc from the online store, he would save about £6. Then he would still have to wait until they ordered it in for him. He walked out just to save that amount of money. Beggars belief.

The other day a young lad came in looking for a Squier P-Bass, which he was certain we wouldn't have. I had one in stock at £179. He said he'd seen it online for £139. I said I couldn't match that price, so he asked if he could try it anyway to see if he liked it before buying it online. I gritted my teeth and let him. His mum asked for our best price, which I said had to be £169. In the end she saw sense and bought it.

Frustrating times.

And now there's news that Amazon are bringing out a music superstore, with many major brands jumping onboard.

Going back to customer service, if someone comes in for a kids' classical for £39, I make sure it's exactly the right size, I tune it up, and stretch in the strings, so that it at least has a chance of being in tune for the first school lesson. They probably save ten quid at Argos but have an instrument that is out of tune. Therefore the child gets frustrated, and it gets chucked in a corner. Waste of money.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1081023' date='Jan 7 2011, 01:27 PM']I think we all realise how dramatically the internet has changed modern buying.

The customer has much more power to pick and choose, and EVERY retailer who has an online store NEEDS to reply to emails. Yes, 3/4 of them might not get you a sale, but having deals in writing in an email is MUCH better for me. Plus, it means I dont have to list huge amounts of information.

[b]We are lucky to have bass specialists now like Bass Merchant. If we didnt, we would still be buying from 'general' music shops and probably paying silly money for average instruments.

Quite a few retailers ive dealt with lose business because they dont match. You dont make as much profit? Oh heck....nevermind. You lose a whole sale? Now you're in trouble.[/b]

People will always want the best prices, as we are currently fighting against rising VAT and all the other rubbish thats occuring.

I much prefer to develop a relationship with a store, buy everything I can from them, and they help by giving me a great price, and I help by recommending them.

Certain places like Strings Direct etc, will always have the best strings prices.[/quote]

Wrong. Shops work at certain margins to stay alive and pay staff that know their stuff, not shift boxes. I pity you if you open a music store...it will last five minutes.

[martindupras]

You're a good man, Pete. If you were my local store, that would be exactly the kind of customer service that would bring me back, and that would make me recommend to others.

- martin

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1081033' date='Jan 7 2011, 01:35 PM']Going back to customer service, if someone comes in for a kids' classical for £39, I make sure it's exactly the right size, I tune it up, and stretch in the strings, so that it at least has a chance of being in tune for the first school lesson. They probably save ten quid at Argos but have an instrument that is out of tune. Therefore the child gets frustrated, and it gets chucked in a corner. Waste of money.[/quote]

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='1081035' date='Jan 7 2011, 01:38 PM']Wrong. Shops work at certain margins to stay alive and pay staff that know their stuff, not shift boxes. I pity you if you open a music store...it will last five minutes.[/quote]

Heck Pete, I wasnt attacking anyone, I was stating how bad my experience has been with general music stores. Eg, PMT and places like that. No one is wrong or right, its an opinion. Most generic music stores I used to use have very little bass knowledge, eg they wouldnt think twice about putting a Fender on display thats clearly needing a massive setup or return because the neck pocket is so poor. Your bass knowledge is obviously very very good so that would make your store much stronger IMO.

The only local place is back home called PPS Music/Pooles which is fantastic, but only because the guy knows me and will always do special prices on Orange gear, etc.

No, I wont be attempting to open any kind of business. I looked into it and the stress/cost was far far too high. The market is now fully loaded with great bass shops. I think if anyone did, they would have to concentrate on online prices.

I meant no offence to general music shops, Ive probably just had a few bad experiences that put me right off.

I do think shops have to match online prices though, as most the time they are online themselves. There is still a profit margin there, and a sale with some profit is better than no sale at all. Plus the customer may come back

Edited January 7, 2011 by Musicman20

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1081045' date='Jan 7 2011, 01:42 PM']Heck Pete, I wasnt attacking anyone, I was stating how bad my experience has been with general music stores. Eg, PMT and places like that.

The only local place is back home called PPS Music/Pooles which is fantastic, but only because the guy knows me and will always do special prices on Orange gear, etc.

No, I wont be attempting to open any kind of business. I looked into it and the stress/cost was far far too high. The market is now fully loaded with great bass shops. I think if anyone did, they would have to concentrate on online prices.

I meant no offence to general music shops, Ive probably just had a few bad experiences that put me right off.

I do think shops have to match online prices though, as most the time they are online themselves. There is still a profit margin there, and a sale with some profit is better than no sale at all. Plus the customer may come back [/quote]

No offence taken.

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='martindupras' post='1081039' date='Jan 7 2011, 01:40 PM']You're a good man, Pete. If you were my local store, that would be exactly the kind of customer service that would bring me back, and that would make me recommend to others.

- martin[/quote]

Thanks. I just know what it's like to get that extra bit of service if I go to buy something.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1081045' date='Jan 7 2011, 01:42 PM']...I do think shops have to match online prices though, as most the time they are online themselves. There is still a profit margin there...[/quote]

How do you know? Shops have much larger overheads.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='1081061' date='Jan 7 2011, 01:52 PM']How do you know? Shops have much larger overheads.[/quote]

I understand the idea of larger overheads. BUT, what if we are talking the difference between selling a bass cab at £249 and £235 and the customer is there asking for the match, with CASH, and its a stock item, why not?

The problem is, if you dont, some will walk and not go back, when they could actually have a huge wodge of cash to spend. Meeting them halfway can help

Online stores have opened the can of worms of 'profit margins'. I have seen some of the profit margins with certain brands and its huge. Not all obviously. But, seeing Fenders for £1000 in a shop in Leeds, and they are generally £850 (this was a year ago), which one will you pick? £1000 is a huge jump. As we all know, Fenders can be great or dogs.

An example was when I bought my now ex Ray 3 EQ in Natural. My local store said something like £1100, and a store 30 mins down the road said £1100 including the EBMM hardcase. So, I got it for £1150 without a hardcase but 0% credit for 6 months, and the guy thanked me, and was more than willing to match. In the end, due to the price of the hardcase, it would have been a slightly better deal at the other place, BUT, not enough to mess about. This was over 10 years ago now, before internet shopping took off.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Musicman20

[dlloyd]

I gave up on any loyalty to local retailers a long time ago. Last time I tried to buy a bass locally was in 2003. I wanted a Fender Precision and had my mind set on the then new US-series basses (they'd been introduced 3 years previously). The local shop, which was part of a chain that were main Fender dealers, had a couple of US Fenders on the wall, the newest being from 1996. At full RRP.

I was told that they could get one of the newer models in for me from one of their other shops, but it would take a few days... I went back once a week for the next three weeks with £900 cash in my pocket to be told they hadn't got it in yet. The last time I went in, the guy told me, "look... they're exactly the same as the old ones, they've just changed the name..."

I didn't go back. I got on the train and spent £1200 in a non-local, specialist shop.

I've moved since then, but my experience in many guitar shops has been similar. I asked a shop assistant about the new Trace Elliot range, to be told that they weren't really made by Trace Elliot any more... if I wanted a "real Trace Elliot" I'd have to buy an Ashdown (surprisingly they were Ashdown dealers).

I simply don't feel any compulsion to stay local. Even for strings... Why drive into town and spend a couple of quid on parking to buy a set of EBs for £23, when online shops do them for £18, free delivery?

[Pete Academy]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='1081071' date='Jan 7 2011, 02:03 PM']I gave up on any loyalty to local retailers a long time ago. Last time I tried to buy a bass locally was in 2003. I wanted a Fender Precision and had my mind set on the then new US-series basses (they'd been introduced 3 years previously). The local shop, which was part of a chain that were main Fender dealers, had a couple of US Fenders on the wall, the newest being from 1996. At full RRP.

I was told that they could get one of the newer models in for me from one of their other shops, but it would take a few days... I went back once a week for the next three weeks with £900 cash in my pocket to be told they hadn't got it in yet. The last time I went in, the guy told me, "look... they're exactly the same as the old ones, they've just changed the name..."

I didn't go back. I got on the train and spent £1200 in a non-local, specialist shop.

I've moved since then, but my experience in many guitar shops has been similar. I asked a shop assistant about the new Trace Elliot range, to be told that they weren't really made by Trace Elliot any more... if I wanted a "real Trace Elliot" I'd have to buy an Ashdown (surprisingly they were Ashdown dealers).

I simply don't feel any compulsion to stay local. Even for strings... Why drive into town and spend a couple of quid on parking to buy a set of EBs for £23, when online shops do them for £18, free delivery?[/quote]

That Ashdown/Trace comment was indeed very dumb.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1080670' date='Jan 7 2011, 01:30 AM']...I rang and found out that it hadn't even been sent yet (with some pathetic excuses about weather affecting delivery companies, even though it hadn't left the warehouse).[/quote]
If that was in the recent snow madness, I know that some of the couriers round our way were refusing to do any pickups until the backlog in their depot was cleared, or at least significantly reduced. So there were delays in both pickup [i]and[/i] delivery. I received a delivery that had taken 11 days on a "next-day" service, first because they couldn't/wouldn't pick it up for two days, and then because it was stuck in two different depots on the way.

[BottomEndian]

[quote name='Musicman20' post='1081045' date='Jan 7 2011, 01:42 PM']I do think shops have to match online prices though, as most the time they are online themselves. There is still a profit margin there, and a sale with some profit is better than no sale at all. Plus the customer may come back [/quote]
There isn't necessarily a profit margin there. I get asked to price match now and again, and we usually can, but sometimes I'll be asked to match a genuine retail price (people send me web links) that's below what we paid for it wholesale. I'm generally not keen on making a loss on a sale. I'll do it sometimes, though, if I know I can claw it back on accessories or other items in the same transaction... or if I'm desperate to shift the stock anyway.