New all valve bass head in R&D

[Born 2B Mild]

Hi folks,

A new product line is in the making and I could use your help.

Bass Gear is commissioning an all valve bass amp head to be made in low volume, by hand, by a reputable 'boutique' amp builder in the UK. The resulting model would then be sold exclusively through Bass Gear but keeping the maker's brand.

I know there are good amp builders that will make you a one-off custom job (I use a custom built tube head myself) but the idea here is to go for a new amp that will be a regular selling line.

I see it as old school meets modern user. Like new-build E-type Jags use some modern technologies yet stay classic, IYKWIM.



I'm interested in what controls, inputs & outputs, power and other specifications, appeal to prospective users. Anything in fact!

So please post up your wish list suggestions, however simple or complicated, so that I can take this thread to the amp designer and decide what is possible/desirable.

Once we know what the beast is going to be, then we can price it. It's bound not to be low-budget though.

Any way, please wish-list away ...


Thanks,

Phil

[EBS_freak]

Brave move...

Going by what seems to be most popular, you should probably be looking at either an Ampeg SVT clone or a B15 clone.

Of course, you then have to convince people that your fixed spec boutique amp is better than an Ampeg (OK, thats going to be a given, but thats a strong brand name to go up against) and better than a Matamp where you can have an amp custom built to your exact requirements. (within reason).

How many of these units are you looking to sell and have you got a ballpark figure?

[chris_b]

I would suggest:

Valve pre and solid state power sections.

Over speced power section for better tone and quality/authority of the note.

2 ohm minimum.

Keep weight under 25 lbs.

Simple controls: bass, low mid, high mid, high, gain, master, mute.

[Musicman20]

All valve, either low wattage like the new Ashdown amps/Ampeg reissues, or maxmium around 200 watts.

They seem to be popular these days.

Speakons, as light as possible, simple controls.

Im guessing this MIGHT be Matamp?!

[Roland Rock]

Hi,

Sounds exciting!
As a valve amp user, the following things would be on my wish list:

-Simple controls on the front i.e. Gain, Bass, Mid, Treble & Master
-On the back: The usual outputs/power lead & Ohm selector. I would prefer a balanced XLR on mine. Also, I read somewhere about a Markbass all valve head having some very clever functions where you can adjust the bias yourself, negating the need for matched power valves (I'm not technical as you can tell, and am sure I'll be corrected on the details of this, but it was something that struck me as desirable and practical)
-Simple aesthetics, preferably retro

Things I wouldn't like to see:
-Complicated or slidey EQ section
-Busy aesthetics


In terms of sound, personally I like a relatively low gain amp, but want a bit of grit when I push it.
Watts, 200w seems to be the crowd pleaser - loud enough for most gigs but not as back/bank breaking as a 3/400 watter

[Lozz196]

My input on this would be don`t make the gain too full-on. The Orange Terror for example is a great amp, but on anything more than 3 on the gain, it was, well very "gainy". I can`t imagine what it would have been like on 10. I`d like an amp to be breaking up at about 5 on the gain.

[charic]

Ability to store presets would be awesome.
In built tuner
A storage compartment for wires (hey its a wish list isn't it?)

[Mr. Foxen]

Winding on the OT for a line out/DI so it gets the power stage goodness. 2xKT88 power section, so it is a ~100w and will drive, but with KT88 flavour (this is doable, but unusual, make a little market space for yourself there). Individual bias on these two valve (only one extra pot) so don't have to mess with matching.

My Ashdown valve head has a feature so that the VU on the front acts as a bias meter, that would cover the above post.

Accessible pre valves for valve rolling.

No avoiding modern feature that are better just because it isn't how old amps were done (like using toroidal transformers, because they are plain better, even though they don't look like drakes/partridges).

Tone stack bypass. Maybe a tone stack other than a Fender type, that would be cool, although the Fender type works great for bass, even Orange are sticking it on their amps, and only scooping the midrange isn't always fun.

[algmusic]

Simple - gain, bass, mid, treble, passive active input
as light a possible

as small as possible

8/4/2ohm all at 200w or even 150

DI in the rear that is post pre

Technically the AD200mk3 but lighter, and with DI

[Roland Rock]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1079718' date='Jan 6 2011, 12:17 PM']Winding on the OT for a line out/DI so it gets the power stage goodness. 2xKT88 power section, so it is a ~100w and will drive, but with KT88 flavour (this is doable, but unusual, make a little market space for yourself there)[/quote]


The EBS T90 (6550s rather than KT88s but a reasonable comparison) didn't really take off in the UK, I think people think 90W is too quiet. More on:
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=102651&st=0&p=955888&#entry955888"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...mp;#entry955888[/url]

Like others on that thread, I think it's plenty with the right cab. Perhaps that's something that would need to be emphasised in the marketing material

Edited January 6, 2011 by Roland Rock

[Pentode]

I'd run with Mr Foxens' specs.

[Anders]

Brave move!
I agree.Great thing.
300w with good oldschool punch.Many eq possibillities.
1 or2 midfrequency sweeps.Basically Ampeg svt but better tonalpossibillities.Good transformers.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='algmusic' post='1079724' date='Jan 6 2011, 12:25 PM']Simple - gain, bass, mid, treble, passive active input
as light a possible[/quote]

3 band EQ with valves means Fender tone stack generally and that means you can't boost mids. That sucks.

[quote name='Roland Rock' post='1079727' date='Jan 6 2011, 12:27 PM']The EBS T90 (6500s rather than KT88s but a reasonable comparison) didn't really take off in the UK, I think people think 90W is too quiet. More on:
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=102651&st=0&p=955888&#entry955888"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...mp;#entry955888[/url]

Like others on that thread, I think it's plenty with the right cab. Perhaps that's something that would need to be emphasised in the marketing material[/quote]

Can squeeze a fair chunk more than 90w out of a pair of KT88s, depending on how you run them (and how you choose to describe your specs in marketing). Potentially they can be run really hard because replacing a pair (or even one, with individual bias) isn't nearly as prohibitively expensive as replacing a matched quad. Fairly sure 300w is giant overkill with modern cabs, if you have a valve amp, you ain't scared of heavy things, and if you want squeaky clean power stage, go SS.

Oh, something else to add to my spec, actually decent valves coming stock. Even if I buy new, I have to consider the cost of replacing a bunch of valves, and that points me straight at the second hand market.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Roland Rock' post='1079727' date='Jan 6 2011, 12:27 PM']The EBS T90 (6550s rather than KT88s but a reasonable comparison) didn't really take off in the UK, I think people think 90W is too quiet. More on:
[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=102651&st=0&p=955888&#entry955888"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...mp;#entry955888[/url]

Like others on that thread, I think it's plenty with the right cab. Perhaps that's something that would need to be emphasised in the marketing material[/quote]

Bernie didn't sell one when he was distributing EBS.

[henry norton]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1079718' date='Jan 6 2011, 01:17 PM']No avoiding modern feature that are better just because it isn't how old amps were done (like using toroidal transformers, because they are plain better, even though they don't look like drakes/partridges).[/quote]

From what I understand a fairly large part of true overdriven 'valve sound' stems from the output transformer saturating, which would lead to the question, do you want an ultra clean, hi-fi sounding valve amp, in which case you might be better off with a largeish, modern toroidal output transformer, or do you want classic output trans saturation, in which case maybe an under rated laminated core trans would be better? You could include both on the chassis as switchable options, but with two output transformers you'd probably need a fork lift to get it on top of your 8x10

[algmusic]

[quote name='Lozz196' post='1079708' date='Jan 6 2011, 12:10 PM']My input on this would be don`t make the gain too full-on. The Orange Terror for example is a great amp, but on anything more than 3 on the gain, it was, well very "gainy". I can`t imagine what it would have been like on 10. I`d like an amp to be breaking up at about 5 on the gain.[/quote]

I've heard you can change the valves, I was thinking of doing the same with my terror. I can't remember the name of the alternatives. I'm worried it won't sound as good though

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='algmusic' post='1079780' date='Jan 6 2011, 01:08 PM']I've heard you can change the valves, I was thinking of doing the same with my terror. I can't remember the name of the alternatives. I'm worried it won't sound as good though[/quote]

I'm guessing that the preamp uses 12ax7s, (haven't looked at the amp so don't know for certain) so 12at7s, 12au7s would lower your gain.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='henry norton' post='1079779' date='Jan 6 2011, 01:07 PM']From what I understand a fairly large part of true overdriven 'valve sound' stems from the output transformer saturating, which would lead to the question, do you want an ultra clean, hi-fi sounding valve amp, in which case you might be better off with a largeish, modern toroidal output transformer, or do you want classic output trans saturation, in which case maybe an under rated laminated core trans would be better? You could include both on the chassis as switchable options, but with two output transformers you'd probably need a fork lift to get it on top of your 8x10 [/quote]

You don't have to make it big just because it is toroidal. Aside from they are round so their form necessarily takes up a bunch of space. Small transformers just pass less power and cut low end, really not a win for bass. It is like using inefficient speakers so you can crank the amp more without loudness. Have a look at Umph's build thread where he ordered a transformer to go down to 50hz (not considered that low in the scheme of things, higher than the E string fundamental), it is huge.

[markorbit]

I would avoid the big weighty SVT-type 2/300 watters. I think that area is well covered by Ampeg and Ashdown at the moment. Lots of players are also avoiding weighty amps these days as well. My recommendation would be look towards a studio/practice boutique rig with sound quaility the #1 criteria. It needn't be more than 30watts. My old Trace V4 200w combo had about 10 preamp tubes and it sounded great (warm and valvey) at really low volume. I would like to see a valve compressor on board as well. I would prefer to see a great sounding amp that's controllable than one you need to turn stupidly loud to find it's tone. Even some people with SVTs take their Markbass to the gig. Aim for the studio connoisseur!

[Low End Bee]

An electric shock booby trapped force field for when the guitarist/bassist of the other band on the bill decide to rest their full pint on it.

[charic]

An interesting idea from the TC... Daisy Chain Capability

Or really push the boat! Midi output

[charic]

[quote name='Low End Bee' post='1079831' date='Jan 6 2011, 01:43 PM']An electric shock booby trapped force field for when the guitarist/bassist of the other band on the bill decide to rest their full pint on it.[/quote]

A time triggered catapult has the capability to be much more interesting

[algmusic]

[quote name='Low End Bee' post='1079831' date='Jan 6 2011, 01:43 PM']An electric shock booby trapped force field for when the guitarist/bassist of the other band on the bill decide to rest their full pint on it.[/quote]

+1000

[dan670844]

[quote name='Born 2B Mild' post='1079658' date='Jan 6 2011, 11:39 AM']Hi folks,

A new product line is in the making and I could use your help.

Bass Gear is commissioning an all valve bass amp head to be made in low volume, by hand, by a reputable 'boutique' amp builder in the UK. The resulting model would then be sold exclusively through Bass Gear but keeping the maker's brand.

I know there are good amp builders that will make you a one-off custom job (I use a custom built tube head myself) but the idea here is to go for a new amp that will be a regular selling line.

I see it as old school meets modern user. Like new-build E-type Jags use some modern technologies yet stay classic, IYKWIM.



I'm interested in what controls, inputs & outputs, power and other specifications, appeal to prospective users. Anything in fact!

So please post up your wish list suggestions, however simple or complicated, so that I can take this thread to the amp designer and decide what is possible/desirable.

Once we know what the beast is going to be, then we can price it. It's bound not to be low-budget though.

Any way, please wish-list away ...


Thanks,

Phil[/quote]

There are two uses for amps 1 the studio and two peformance, you did not state which you where going to bang out so here my take

Studio 20-25 watts maxo

UL output tranny, forget what was done in the past needs, decent modern power filtering, transformer etc, silicon rectifiers are a must and must be up to the job, i.e no sag as someone else said bias pots for each output tube with easy to get to biasing points (has anyone tried bias the new fender amps, what a nightmare)

Avoid EL84 tubes , much better results from EL34 and 6L6

Preamp simple Bassman, B15 etc with the right resistors

Performance

200watt max KT88, turrent board, aderquate cooling, bias pots,
preamp this is tricky everyone is going to shoot me but for live you really need better control over certain key frequencies, everyone knocked Ashdown and Laney and previously Trace with having a SS preamp or graphic eq etc but for live in the market you intend to go at (i.e semi professional, pub club players) you really need this, maybe you could follow it with a valve stage to warm it up. There is a gem of a preamp valve for bass amps, as it has a really nice tight low end,

I have to say though it will probably be a tough job to sell this gear in any quantity as there is a load of decent gear around now that does a really decent job

For old school sounds you have Orange, Matamp, Hiwatt etc etc nice sounding amps but with limited eq, great if you are playing in a controlled environment like a large stage etc then you don't need big eq adjustments. (I left out Ampeg!!!)

Then we have stuff like Ashdown BTA, Laney Nexus, Markbass valve amp (which looks after its self !!! baising what not), EBS which is aimed at pro geezers who play pubs clubs and bars, which combines the nice valve slam that everyone likes but has modern eq ideas which is necessary to adjust the sound in smaller live environments i.e. pubs clubs where there maybe or may not be not PA sound reinforcement.


Then you have company like Audio kitchen and Thermonic culture who are specialists and will make exactly what you want, if you want a sound like an original Ampeg SVT for example they will make it, if you want massive eq control they will do that too
I'd say its pretty well saturated and its a pretty small market, but it is changing, if you have something unique and most importantly catch the wave of popularity then you may have great sucess. For example the lightweight switchy stuff is very popular at the moment, I entirely understand this from a weight perspective but from a point of view of playing dynamics which is very important to be they are shockingly poor and i could never see myself using that type of equipment.

[sk8]

No standby switch
DI
8/4/2 ohm capable
Tuner out
Mute
Effects loop