New all valve bass head in R&D

[bumnote]

[quote name='dan670844' post='1080366' date='Jan 6 2011, 08:11 PM']But I bet you wish wish you had kept that combo, what was it a JTM Bass? worth a fortune![/quote]

It was a jtm blues breaker combo with tremelo very few were made, a certain EC used one on the BluesBreaker album, but his was a 2x12 and yes it would be worth a fair bit today.

[dan670844]

Controversy abounds but why would you want a DI box on a valve amp anyway? In almost every situation the DI always goes out dry, i.e uncoloured as the sound guy has the room acoustic mix etc to contend with, DI are useful on amps so you dont have the opportunity to forget your little grey box. If you go to the trouble of a valve amp, you want a dry DI and a micc'ed cab to get the sound as the speaker cab has just an important effect on your sound. Then the engineer can use the dry DI and coloured it with a bit of speaker. If you want a DI on a valve amp it would probably mean another winding on the power tranny as 9-18v is probably not used in the circuit = more expense when youcan by a radial di for £20 and push your signal through it!!!

[Mr. Foxen]

For the people demanding 3 band EQ, check out [url="http://www.duncanamps.com/tsc/"]this program.[/url] I shows how much more flex you can get from a 2 band tone stack, and less knobs is less cost. Going solid state for the pre is a bit lame, and active valve preamps give you the issue SC120 mk IV have with noise, because they have all the noise of three gain stages.

[umph]

personally, i'd like to see something new. There are enough straight forward amps out there so do something with some new features! It doesn't have to be pure valve, just keep the signal path valve.

[dan670844]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1080432' date='Jan 6 2011, 08:52 PM']For the people demanding 3 band EQ, check out [url="http://www.duncanamps.com/tsc/"]this program.[/url] I shows how much more flex you can get from a 2 band tone stack, and less knobs is less cost. Going solid state for the pre is a bit lame, and active valve preamps give you the issue SC120 mk IV have with noise, because they have all the noise of three gain stages.[/quote]

Yep Leo Fender was a genius he did the SE-5 tone stack and deluxe when in the 50's?

You really think SS preamps are lame? even the trace stuff and modern days the ABM, SWR, Genz, Aguilar? I think they are pretty on the nail, I am just talking about the design here. All very different, but give you great control of the mid range which is important for the gigging musician. I love valve stuff don't get me wrong. But accurate control of your feed signal with a valve pre could be tricky in a middling live situation. I have some valve preamps from Thermonic culture great, clean amazing stuff, but you would need to incorporate this sort of stuff i.e stuff with sowter transformers etc to get the level of control you need so its quiet enough, its very expensive and can you imagine how big the amp would be if the preamp was all valve and offered the same functionality of say a Trace GP12-SM it would be the size of a filling cabinet. I guess thats why valve bass amps very often come with two preamps one simple passive tone stack for purists and another SS with a decent control circuit, so when you realise that the Bassman, B15, stack can't q a room out properly you can flip it. This is why I have recent come to realise the Laney Nexus/ Ashdown BTA is really the muts, clever stuff. Having said that in a neutral environment like a studio forget about it, a champ circuit is good enough! I do think the SS/ valve is the best option, palatable to joe public hell no! its just knowing how to use it, the old trace gear for example was great if you only cut the signal and never boosted, it says this in the manual, but no one listened. Our guitarist cousins rave about shoving boost pedals in front of there 1974X, JTM45's and Plexi's the best ones are of course powered by germinium transistors like the Dallas etc
But a valve power amp for bass matched and booked with a good OT thats something that SS really cannot replicate,( I have only really realised this in recent years) the liner nature of the output from .Hz to KHz evenly represented, distortion yes but its natural warm and never sterile and so dam powerful at the low end where SS looses definition. and its what you expect and really want to hear, no distortion and the wrong kind of distortion you can get from SS thats bad an unnatural sound. So maybe a selection of valve poweramps is the answer light medium and powerful for each situation that everyone is talking about, then you can front end it with your preamp of choice. Then you keep it simple and lower cost

[Born 2B Mild]

Superb input so far everyone. Thank you.

I'm trying to be as open minded as possible but it's in [i]my [/i]mind that A) it's for gigging mainly, and B ) it'll be the price it works out to be ...even if that reduces the amount of buyers to only a few dozen in the first year or so.

This doesn't mean that studio versions or even lower-cost versions are never going to happen ...they may well do. I just want to start with something that is simply the very best in sound, design and reliability.

Of course it's got to have a return on our investment, but at least much of the customers money won't be going to fund non design/production cost such as the slices of pie that exist for the larger volume products e.g. import cost, distributor margin, high profile marketing etc.

I believe that cream will float to the top, and your ideas are going to help bring to the bass scene something above average. I'll try and find some way to acknowledge this when it arrives.

In the meantime, please keep those ideas coming.

Thanks,

Phil

[Kiwi]

I think different players look for different things in a valve head.

I would be looking for something very clean and sweet sounding but loud. Mating an Avalon VT-737 mic preamp to a LED biasing valve power stage which can deliver into 2-8ohm loads and adding a 4 band para eq, for example. No point in asking for something lightweight, I don't believe the technology can accommodate that to a significant degree without making a lot of compromises in terms of build quality or sending the price sky rocketing.

[dan670844]

[quote name='dan670844' post='1080597' date='Jan 6 2011, 11:43 PM']Yep Leo Fender was a genius he did the SE-5 tone stack and deluxe when in the 50's?

You really think SS preamps are lame? even the trace stuff and modern days the ABM, SWR, Genz, Aguilar? I think they are pretty on the nail, I am just talking about the design here. All very different, but give you great control of the mid range which is important for the gigging musician. I love valve stuff don't get me wrong. But accurate control of your feed signal with a valve pre could be tricky in a middling live situation. I have some valve preamps from Thermonic culture great, clean amazing stuff, but you would need to incorporate this sort of stuff i.e stuff with sowter transformers etc to get the level of control you need so its quiet enough, its very expensive and can you imagine how big the amp would be if the preamp was all valve and offered the same functionality of say a Trace GP12-SM it would be the size of a filling cabinet. I guess thats why valve bass amps very often come with two preamps one simple passive tone stack for purists and another SS with a decent control circuit, so when you realise that the Bassman, B15, stack can't q a room out properly you can flip it. This is why I have recent come to realise the Laney Nexus/ Ashdown BTA is really the muts, clever stuff. Having said that in a neutral environment like a studio forget about it, a champ circuit is good enough! I do think the SS/ valve is the best option, palatable to joe public hell no! its just knowing how to use it, the old trace gear for example was great if you only cut the signal and never boosted, it says this in the manual, but no one listened. Our guitarist cousins rave about shoving boost pedals in front of there 1974X, JTM45's and Plexi's the best ones are of course powered by germinium transistors like the Dallas etc
But a valve power amp for bass matched and booked with a good OT thats something that SS really cannot replicate,( I have only really realised this in recent years) the liner nature of the output from .Hz to KHz evenly represented, distortion yes but its natural warm and never sterile and so dam powerful at the low end where SS looses definition. and its what you expect and really want to hear, no distortion and the wrong kind of distortion you can get from SS thats bad an unnatural sound. So maybe a selection of valve poweramps is the answer light medium and powerful for each situation that everyone is talking about, then you can front end it with your preamp of choice. Then you keep it simple and lower cost[/quote]

Sorry to ramble on but if these poweramps where self biasing and a bit of education was thrown in on how to look after them, and get people to realise the valves need burn in time etc when they first buy the stuff that would also be cool, most of the time valve amp unreliable image could possibly be attributed to a lack of understanding of the human that operate them!

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='dan670844' post='1080597' date='Jan 6 2011, 11:43 PM']Yep Leo Fender was a genius he did the SE-5 tone stack and deluxe when in the 50's?

You really think SS preamps are lame?[/quote]

For the purposes of a valve amp, yes. All that other stuff you said, doesn't belong in a what do you want in a valve amp thread, because, as you specify, they are all in amps that are already made.

I use separate pre and power amps according to need. Building all of them into one amp would make very little sense. People that want fiddly can make something fiddly out of bits. For the purpose of a valve amp, what I describe is what I want.

[Kiwi]

[quote name='dan670844' post='1080597' date='Jan 6 2011, 11:43 PM']Yep Leo Fender was a genius he did the SE-5 tone stack and deluxe when in the 50's?[/quote]
Leo Fender didn't design amps

[umph]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='1080606' date='Jan 6 2011, 11:51 PM']I think different players look for different things in a valve head.

I would be looking for something very clean and sweet sounding but loud. Mating an Avalon VT-737 mic preamp to a LED biasing valve power stage which can deliver into 2-8ohm loads and adding a 4 band para eq, for example. No point in asking for something lightweight, I don't believe the technology can accommodate that to a significant degree without making a lot of compromises in terms of build quality or sending the price sky rocketing.[/quote]

Can't really use an LED to bias power stages, i use them to bias my pre stages though, sound much better than using a cap and resistor. For power stages though i've experimented with CCS's for biasing power valves and they sound the absolute dogs for bass when you crank them up.

[Phil-osopher10]

I think it is very important that you come at least £300 below a custom job from the manufacture. I know if I were spending £1000 onn a new amp and I could customise my own for a few more hundred I would, personal opinion.

You need to come up with a all new feature that will make it unique. There are too many people using the SVT's and DB751 for you to compete in that market and people like to have the amp of their favourite bass player to try and get their tone in my opinion, so developing something like switchable wattage like has been said or a professional on board compressor that you can adjust attack release etc.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='1080707' date='Jan 7 2011, 04:00 AM']Leo Fender didn't design amps[/quote]
He did! He started out building PA systems...

[dan670844]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1080640' date='Jan 7 2011, 12:37 AM']For the purposes of a valve amp, yes. All that other stuff you said, doesn't belong in a what do you want in a valve amp thread, because, as you specify, they are all in amps that are already made.

I use separate pre and power amps according to need. Building all of them into one amp would make very little sense. People that want fiddly can make something fiddly out of bits. For the purpose of a valve amp, what I describe is what I want.[/quote]


He he I was in fact not assuming someone was going to copy existing designs, i was responding to the comment about SS preamps, yep its a touchy subject, but in a live environment If you really want good control of your signal then a good SS circuit, in terms of price performnace and cost is defo a consideration, it need not be like the ones i mentioned it could be a new concept

[dan670844]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='1080868' date='Jan 7 2011, 11:32 AM']He did! He started out building PA systems...[/quote]

+1 he designed some of the greatest valve amps ever, so good in the begining even jim marshall copied them, thats not to mention some of the music man amps that everyone has forgot about they are absolute gems and if he was still alive he would agree with me! the music man bass amps he design had solid state preamps ! they bombed but they are fantastic

[umph]

[quote name='dan670844' post='1080975' date='Jan 7 2011, 12:41 PM']He he I was in fact not assuming someone was going to copy existing designs, i was responding to the comment about SS preamps, yep its a touchy subject, but in a live environment If you really want good control of your signal then a good SS circuit, in terms of price performnace and cost is defo a consideration, it need not be like the ones i mentioned it could be a new concept[/quote]

There are more valve amp designs out there than the standard fender bassman and it's clones. You can make very simple very flexible circuits but people tend to shy away from them as they tend to not be the norm

[Spoombung]

bass, mid, treble, compression, line out.

No fan.

[umph]

[quote name='Spoombung' post='1081101' date='Jan 7 2011, 02:25 PM']bass, mid, treble, compression, line out.

No fan.[/quote]
good call on the no volume, all amps should be on full by default

[Mr. Foxen]

Every knob that isn't on full is money you have wasted buying that amp.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='dan670844' post='1080975' date='Jan 7 2011, 12:41 PM']He he I was in fact not assuming someone was going to copy existing designs, i was responding to the comment about SS preamps, yep its a touchy subject, but in a live environment If you really want good control of your signal then a good SS circuit, in terms of price performnace and cost is defo a consideration, it need not be like the ones i mentioned it could be a new concept[/quote]

[quote name='Born 2B Mild' post='1079658' date='Jan 6 2011, 11:39 AM']Bass Gear is commissioning an [b]all valve[/b] bass amp head to be made in low volume, by hand, by a reputable 'boutique' amp builder in the UK. The resulting model would then be sold exclusively through Bass Gear but keeping the maker's brand.[/quote]

[gricko]

simple controls
good, clean sound, gritty when overdriven
DI [balanced out] built in with pre/post preamp option
speakon connectors

[algmusic]

[quote name='umph' post='1081108' date='Jan 7 2011, 02:31 PM']good call on the no volume, all amps should be on full by default[/quote]


imagine if that's a 200w amp in a small club... :-)

[charic]

A backwards volume control so when the guitarist tries to turn you down you get louder

[Mog]

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='charic' post='1081235' date='Jan 7 2011, 03:58 PM']A backwards volume control so when the guitarist tries to turn you down you get louder [/quote]

Actually, controls you have to push in to engage would be good, no sabotage or people messing without permission.