New all valve bass head in R&D

[algmusic]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='1079782' date='Jan 6 2011, 01:11 PM']I'm guessing that the preamp uses 12ax7s, (haven't looked at the amp so don't know for certain) so 12at7s, 12au7s would lower your gain.[/quote]

Mine are the 12ax7's.. what's the difference between the 12at7s and the 12au7s?

Sorry to go off on a tangent

[henry norton]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1079787' date='Jan 6 2011, 02:15 PM']You don't have to make it big just because it is toroidal. Aside from they are round so their form necessarily takes up a bunch of space. Small transformers just pass less power and cut low end, really not a win for bass. It is like using inefficient speakers so you can crank the amp more without loudness. Have a look at Umph's build thread where he ordered a transformer to go down to 50hz (not considered that low in the scheme of things, higher than the E string fundamental), it is huge.[/quote]
Yeah I was following umphs thread but unfortunately nothing's happened in a while.
What I meant by using either a largeish toroidal or a relatively under rated EI, was this could be an opportunity to build an amp that has a better distorted sound than most bass amps out there or a better, louder, clearer clean sound (toroidal's are relatively compact, so you've got the option of getting a bit more iron and wire in the same space). Most amps are a compromise - especially valve amps - and this amp will be competing with Orange, Ampeg, Matamp, Hiwatt, Ashdown, Marshall and a whole load of boutique and garden shed builders, so there's a fair number of very nice but fundamentally very similar amps out there, so if you're going to do it, maybe you should look at what the others don't do so well.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='sk8' post='1079869' date='Jan 6 2011, 02:11 PM']No standby switch[/quote]

Standby switches are really useful as a mute, a mute switch does the same (as I think Matamps have). Like end of gig massive feedback, and then silence ritual, rather than the farty fade out from killing the power switch.

[sk8]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1079958' date='Jan 6 2011, 03:11 PM']Standby switches are really useful as a mute, a mute switch does the same (as I think Matamps have). Like end of gig massive feedback, and then silence ritual, rather than the farty fade out from killing the power switch.[/quote]
i did think that when i put it up as i use the standby on my hiwatt like that.

[Truckstop]

I'm quite liking the idea of a valve amp suitable for home practise. I simply wouldnt bother buying a 200w valve head because IME you gotta crank valve amps to get the better sound.
Is it possible to make a valve head that can be switched between 30-50w and 200-300w? This way, the 30-50w side is great for home use, and the 200-300w side is wick for live use.

Truckstop

[bumnote]

I think you have to decide who your target market is and price point.

I would like 300 watt, ultralight weight, and under £100

Seriously, everyone on Bass chat is a potential customer, but are you targeting the £1700 market of the Ashdown BTA, or the other end, I see the Ashdown lil Bastard is going for just over £300 at the moment.

If you ask us all what we would like, you will get an opinion, but how many of us are going to put our hands in our pocket, and buy from you a new tube amp, rather than waiting for them to come up used on flea bay or amps for sale. Ive seen SH Boogies hang around for months before selling and they are an established brand.

The liklyhood is few people can afford the new cost, or the weight, or even the cost of revalving a BTA/SVT. Then you have the competition, why would someone buy yours rather than BTA/SVT/Boogie

In my view the 30w lil bastard is a great idea, very competively priced, but can you gig with it, many people will think not. It would be great if it was a bit more powerfull

In my view the area not really catered for is the mid power say 100w - 200w in a reasonable price. The traynor 200w jobbie looked good on paper, but difficult to get hold of in the uk and no where to try them.

The guys who are already into valve amps will have their SVTs, Boogies, or older Bassman, MM HD 130, Sound City etc.

Some of the regular posters have and will go to Matamp and get a custom, but IMO your target customer is someone who might otherwise buy a non valve ashdown or Markbass or TC Head, where there is no real already established competition.

Good luck

[Beer of the Bass]

Like other posters, I think there's a gap in the market in between small studio amps of 30 or so watts, and 300 watt big-venue gigging heads. So somewhere from 100-150 watts would be great for the size of venue most of us actually play. And a good DI out is essential.

[LawrenceH]

I do think a lot of people associate 'valve' with 'dirt' but that for me misses a lot of the magic of really nice valve processing. I really didn't like the bass terror due to it's lack of subtlety - I'd go for a pre-amp gain that was capable of driving from clean to moderately distorted...
and a nice warm optical compressor. Yeah!

[Mog]

Something around 50 watts with a decent parametric eq section. No bell/whistles. If its low powered theres no reason for 2ohm stability. Liking the KT88 idea but why not have it switchable anyway.

(Edit: Available for beta testing )

Edited January 6, 2011 by Mog

[ThomBassmonkey]

I think Bumnote might be onto something with regards to budget.

A budget head that's giggable would be brilliant. There's lots of people who want a gigging amp on a shoestring budget and loads are forced to go 2nd hand or wait and save.

There really aren't a lot of heads around for under £200 that are comfortably giggable, I know it wouldn't meet the criteria of a lot of posts in this thread, but this forum isn't an accurate cross section of bassists, it's people who are interested enough in gear and bass playing that they're prepared to sign up to a site and read about it (and most likely know what they like and either own it or are working towards owning it). I know a LOT of bassists that just play bass, the biggest factor in what they own is how much it cost first, looks second and playability and sound third.

Bringing out a cheap head would open up the possibility of getting a stack rather than a combo. If you could bring out a nice head (for the money) and stick it with a cab for the price of an Ashdown MAG, I think you'd be onto a winner.

[dan670844]

[quote name='headofire' post='1079968' date='Jan 6 2011, 03:19 PM']Aim for tone of course! but how about RELIABILITY?? Thats Ampegs massive problem... and to a much lesser extent ashdowns too. Ampegs SVT classic or VR range have been absolutely terrible for reliability since they moved production to the east. thick end of 2 grand an they just break down. When i toured supporting James morrison Ampeg gave Archie their bass player an endorsement. He went through 5 in a week... one didn't even make the end of the soundcheck.
I sell Ampegs and they are addressing this, but theres definitely a market for a high quality high powered head with that type of sound as long as it works and is reliable. You can get the american stuff again now, you have to order it months in advance and its very pricey but it will be a proper ampeg.
A little bird told me that Ampeg may well switch valve amp production to the UK, with the exchange rate and rise of shipping costs the big heavy stuff may well come to blighty. A british made Ampeg..... mind boggles but i'd be in the que to buy one.[/quote]


Thats why I left them out of my thread!! the modern one's sound totally different, as far as I am concerned they stopped making them in 1983!!! If you want a true ampeg sound buy yourself an Audio Kitchen job, its a sad thing to say. The big problem with modern valve stuff is actually the modern valves they just can't hack the plate voltages, although this is being addressed by TAD and EH now. And to build a proper O/T for a bass amp is an expensive business, but one of the most important things to get right and where the corners are always cut.
The answer forget the past, with the exception of PCB's as turrets are amore reliable option i think in the the bass amp situation. But I think Laney have hit the nail big time with the Nexus but no one has realised just yet................

[Roland Rock]

ThomBM, Agreed that a cheap, giggable head would be good - Not sure that a giggable all-valve head could come in at that price point

Edited January 6, 2011 by Roland Rock

[Noisyjon]

For me I would like to see:

Active and Passive separate input sockets,
Gain - Mild break up from half way onwards,
Bass,
Middle,
Treble,
Master Volume,
Power Scaling knob (a la Marshall AFD100/London Power. See: [url="http://www.londonpower.com/london_power_technologies.htm"]HERE[/url])
200 Watts Power stage,
2 x Speakon outputs,
2/4/8 Ohm Switch,
FX Loop with Level control pot,
XLR D.I. out with a Pre/Post swtch & a level control,
Auto Bias circuitry (a la Marshall AFD100 amp),

The Power Scaling would cover the requirements for lower volume with all the valve sound for recording/small gigs, etc.


edit:Spelling & forgot the D.I. out!

Edited January 6, 2011 by jonthebass

[henry norton]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' post='1079999' date='Jan 6 2011, 04:48 PM']Like other posters, I think there's a gap in the market in between small studio amps of 30 or so watts, and 300 watt big-venue gigging heads. So somewhere from 100-150 watts would be great for the size of venue most of us actually play. And a good DI out is essential.[/quote]
+1 on that - my main amp's an old 100 watt valve combo which is plenty loud enough for just about any venue I've played that doesn't have a PA you can't DI your bass off into. There's a niche worth filling, especially if price falls significantly short from SVT & Hiwatt levels.

Edited January 6, 2011 by henry norton

[bumnote]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1080110' date='Jan 6 2011, 04:56 PM']I think Bumnote might be onto something with regards to budget.

A budget head that's giggable would be brilliant. There's lots of people who want a gigging amp on a shoestring budget and loads are forced to go 2nd hand or wait and save.

There really aren't a lot of heads around for under £200 that are comfortably giggable, I know it wouldn't meet the criteria of a lot of posts in this thread, but this forum isn't an accurate cross section of bassists, it's people who are interested enough in gear and bass playing that they're prepared to sign up to a site and read about it (and most likely know what they like and either own it or are working towards owning it). I know a LOT of bassists that just play bass, the biggest factor in what they own is how much it cost first, looks second and playability and sound third.

Bringing out a cheap head would open up the possibility of getting a stack rather than a combo. If you could bring out a nice head (for the money) and stick it with a cab for the price of an Ashdown MAG, I think you'd be onto a winner.[/quote]

Unfortunately the chance of bringing out something anywhere near £200 is pretty unlikely.

I was thinking more in the range 7-900, where you are up in the markbass/ampeg non valve stuff. Its a lot of money, but there is a reasonable market and little competition.

Whether it can be done for that I have no idea

[Mog]

So out of interest what would it cost to manufacture a high quality valve amp with basic but usable functionality? Considering its unlikely to be made in China or India? Or perhaps more importantly to the OP what would you be willing to pay?

[bumnote]

The trouble is we have got used to relatively cheap gear and we wont pay the same for equipment that we once used to.

My first amp in 1965 was a marshal 50w combo which cost £115. I earned £5 12 6 a week That was about 20 weeks wages on probably the equivalent of a min wage now. That was for a "budget" amp.

So when Jim Marshall was making his amps, thats why he could afford a team of people making amps by hand.

Now, we use printed circuits, make them in a low wage economy, or pay loads for the privelege of making them in the UK.

[ThomBassmonkey]

Sorry, missed that it was an all-valve head being made.

To be honest, I prefer SS, so I don't really know where the gaps in the market for valve stuff lays.

[mikhay77]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1079718' date='Jan 6 2011, 12:17 PM']Winding on the OT for a line out/DI so it gets the power stage goodness. 2xKT88 power section, so it is a ~100w and will drive, but with KT88 flavour (this is doable, but unusual, make a little market space for yourself there). Individual bias on these two valve (only one extra pot) so don't have to mess with matching.

My Ashdown valve head has a feature so that the VU on the front acts as a bias meter, that would cover the above post.

Accessible pre valves for valve rolling.

No avoiding modern feature that are better just because it isn't how old amps were done (like using toroidal transformers, because they are plain better, even though they don't look like drakes/partridges).

Tone stack bypass. Maybe a tone stack other than a Fender type, that would be cool, although the Fender type works great for bass, even Orange are sticking it on their amps, and only scooping the midrange isn't always fun.[/quote]
+1 on this.2 KT88s,access to biasing etc ala the ashdown idea,using a VU,bass mid and treble plus bypass.DI out and thats that.Dont wanna run pre too hot,nothing worse than no clean head room like oranges,unless you really want that.

[dan670844]

[quote name='ThomBassmonkey' post='1080110' date='Jan 6 2011, 04:56 PM']I think Bumnote might be onto something with regards to budget.

A budget head that's giggable would be brilliant. There's lots of people who want a gigging amp on a shoestring budget and loads are forced to go 2nd hand or wait and save.

There really aren't a lot of heads around for under £200 that are comfortably giggable, I know it wouldn't meet the criteria of a lot of posts in this thread, but this forum isn't an accurate cross section of bassists, it's people who are interested enough in gear and bass playing that they're prepared to sign up to a site and read about it (and most likely know what they like and either own it or are working towards owning it). I know a LOT of bassists that just play bass, the biggest factor in what they own is how much it cost first, looks second and playability and sound third.

Bringing out a cheap head would open up the possibility of getting a stack rather than a combo. If you could bring out a nice head (for the money) and stick it with a cab for the price of an Ashdown MAG, I think you'd be onto a winner.[/quote]


Theres not a cat in hells chance of doing it though! an output transformer to cover the usual freq on the bass is going to cost and for that reason it will kill the project stone dead, Yes you can get a torriodal transformer for the power input quite good and cheap enough, valves are getting plentiful, with ever increasing availability, reliability and choice. In fact some of the new production are exeeding the NOS stuff (Shugueng 6l6, EL84 for example) Output transformer is a different story, the only really mass produced (so as cheap as they can be) are coming from Danbury, Heyboar and Hammond, even to get 50watts in that frequency range you are looking at around £100-200 and thats trade. As most of the stuff for suitable bass is usually ultra linear as that is where that where the demand is for output trannys is coming from these days, fact is no one is making them in big quantities and there is some serious amounts of iron and copper in them and its a very labour instensive process and the fact that the market for bass related gear seems to be smaller than guitareds stuff. I have been through this as I had a bass rig made for me a little while ago, getting the components for the builder was not really a problem, getting the output tranny of the right quality for me ( I am a picky was a nightmare and cost more than all the other bits of the amp put together including the finger jointed cabinet!.

[3below]

Most of my wishes covered so far, would like two channels. footswitchable. These should cover the whole range from grind/overdrive (mild) through to hi fi type bass. Get this right and the six stringed bretheren might be interested as well, thus increasing market share. Why not be radical and try torroidal output transformers to reduce weight - big EI is not the only way forward. Even more radical, switch mode psu? (Peavey?).

The marketing problem is that quality used valve kit is available at good prices, e.g. the VBA 400 I bought and then moved on due to back problems.

[Geddys nose]

A dummy load on the speaker outputs so that you don't blow the amp if you forget to plug a cable in would be useful.

[paul_5]

If you're not having an FX loop (as has been suggested) then I'd plump for a built-in optical compressor. I agree with the pre/post switchabe DI, but also put a 'ground lift' on there too, just in case.

Also I prefer to steer clear of graphs (in 15 years I've never used the 9 band on my Ampeg), favouring semi-parametric stuff instead. Not sure about the dual concentric pots, if you take out the graph then arguably you've got more room for a knob for everything. This isn't a deal-breaker though, as I've used this setup on a lot of desks and it's really user-friendly, so I could go either way on this. Would be a shame to cramp everything up to one end of the casing. Big Knobs are a must.

[dan670844]

[quote name='bumnote' post='1080169' date='Jan 6 2011, 05:38 PM']The trouble is we have got used to relatively cheap gear and we wont pay the same for equipment that we once used to.

My first amp in 1965 was a marshal 50w combo which cost £115. I earned £5 12 6 a week That was about 20 weeks wages on probably the equivalent of a min wage now. That was for a "budget" amp.

So when Jim Marshall was making his amps, thats why he could afford a team of people making amps by hand.

Now, we use printed circuits, make them in a low wage economy, or pay loads for the privelege of making them in the UK.[/quote]

+1 on that, combine that with the fact that most cheap electronic components caps resistors etc are not made for HT vis valve amps and geared towards SS i.e. low voltage high current and the fact that the caps and valves for this gear is still stuffed by hand we have got no chance!

But I bet you wish wish you had kept that combo, what was it a JTM Bass? worth a fortune!

I still can't believe a friend who chucked out an AC100 way back, cause it blew up, probably only a cap, output valve etc, must have been an easy fix with all those radio and tv repair men!

[dan670844]

[quote name='henry norton' post='1080139' date='Jan 6 2011, 05:16 PM']+1 on that - my main amp's an old 100 watt valve combo which is plenty loud enough for just about any venue I've played that doesn't have a PA you can't DI your bass off into. There's a niche worth filling, especially if price falls significantly short from SVT & Hiwatt levels.[/quote]

You can make your own for studio a fender champ kit and junk the output transformer for a hammond 1628 good enough to run a speaker box, what goes in comes out