Covering bass lines exactly? No need?

[lowdown]

[quote name='Mog' post='1081978' date='Jan 8 2011, 12:12 PM']Unless its a classical piece I'll put the odd twist on a tune 99% of the time.[/quote]


Why does it make a difference to you being a Classical piece ?
Just curious..



Garry

[Mog]

Because in the cover band theres only 3 other guys to piss off by throwing in a bit of improv. Now imagine the look on the faces of the 7 other bassists in the orchestra as you tear off on a wee tangent during Der fliegende Hollander.

[steverickwood]

As with many things music, it is a subjective issue I think. To cop the feel of a piece is how I generally work, especially when depping or busking a tune without rehearsal or prior learning. Other situations require absolute detail to a written score - although sometimes you have some 'artistic licence' provided you spot the unison parts!
And there are situations where I feel blasphemous to even dare deviate from the original line because its so good.

I don't know how others feel, but some lines (a few notable ones include Good Times, Addicted to Love and, oh loads really!) have a subtlelty within in that on the surface they are fairly straightforward, but to get CLOSE to the original requires a lot of attention to beat placement, tone, articulation et cetera - some players deviate by adding fills and skips and so forth but it does not necessarily enhance the groove it sometimes distracts and also highlights how a fill without reason can be a way of disguising a lack of focus on the groove - the tunes mentioned are so well played they don't need lots of fills/variants.

Bit of a can of worms as always this, but one way to know for sure is to record and listen back.
That said, play to a load of pissed people and they probably won't know/care. As long as you play Kings of Leon!

[dlloyd]

[quote name='bubinga5' post='1081551' date='Jan 7 2011, 09:50 PM']Ive heard bass lines played ..better than the original...

*snip*

Chic's Good Times...[/quote]

Do you think you can play Good Times better than the original? Is there something incomplete about Bernard Edwards' line?

[chris_b]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1081967' date='Jan 8 2011, 12:02 PM']....What's all this talk about creativity?....[/quote]
+1

When you're playing different bass lines you're not being creative, you're just playing different bass lines!

[Raggy]

[quote name='Lozz196' post='1081651' date='Jan 7 2011, 11:32 PM']I think it depends on the song itself. Example I`d use is Eton Rifles by The Jam. No way would I want to play that in any other way than how it was recorded, as the bassline is the mainstay of the song, whereas if I`m playing something like Paranoid by Black Sabbath I`ll put some fills in to make it sound more interesting.[/quote]

Totally agree with this, I always make a point of learning the song note for note, then when it comes to rehearsal i'll start mixing things about. There are some songs I alter but some songs just need that original bassline.

[bubinga5]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='1082038' date='Jan 8 2011, 01:09 PM']Do you think you can play Good Times better than the original? Is there something incomplete about Bernard Edwards' line?[/quote]Nicely spliced together there Loyd...But i didnt say i could play Good Times better than the original... Different yes... Im not talking changing the bass line but adding or taking away parts...

[lowdown]

[quote name='Mog' post='1082009' date='Jan 8 2011, 12:37 PM']Because in the cover band theres only 3 other guys to piss off by throwing in a bit of improv. Now imagine the look on the faces of the 7 other bassists in the orchestra as you tear off on a wee tangent during Der fliegende Hollander.[/quote]


Not to mention the raging lunatic of a Conductor, and the brassed bra Lynit being chased by a Flying Dutchman on a winged Horse.
All down to discipline really [Or lack of it]




Garry

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='chris_b' post='1082049' date='Jan 8 2011, 01:15 PM']+1

When you're playing different bass lines you're not being creative, you're just playing different bass lines![/quote]

"Creativity is a mental process involving the discovery of new ideas or concepts, or new associations of the existing ideas or concepts, fueled by the process of either conscious or unconscious insight"

Surely by the definition that you are playing something different or creating something slightly different you are being creative! Your choice of notes, timbre, tempo, dynamic etc. are part of the creative process. I feel it is sad when people dumb down people who get creative enjoyment or stimulation from adapting/altering what is already written; why should it only be the prerogative of those who generate something from nothing (if there is such a thing) to claim to be 'creative'?

Just saying.

[4-string-thing]

I would rather learn a song from chord charts (with the help of tabs, which are usually wrong anyway) then play something close to the original, but within my capabilities, than try to play the original and mess it up in front of an audience!

Obviously things like Alright Now and Eton Rifles would need to be as per the recordings, but most of the stuff my band does can be simplified, or are really easy anyway!

As I said in my earlier post "I like to THINK I am being creative" This doesn't necessarily mean I AM being creative.

[endorka]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='1081955' date='Jan 8 2011, 11:46 AM']I'm not disagreeing that some/many busked sessions can lead to nowhere and aren't as good from an audience perspective as a well rehearsed number but I believe that those people who are genuinely into music can enjoy it when a band are firing on all cylinders with ideas bouncing off each other in a 'busked' manner... Does that make sense?[/quote]

Absolutely. I agree that sometimes a busked tune can be great, indeed there is a special place in my heart for such events.

However, in my experience, there is a danger of the odd success such as that mentioned above leading to the busking approach being elevated to a point that it doesn't really deserve most of the time. I know a lot of musicians who have fallen into this trap; they dismiss rehearsal/practice as not necessary, and think they are being creative, but in reality the resulting music is frequently shabby.

Jennifer

[xgsjx]

I think that if an originals band takes a song to cover what is the point in playing it the same as any covers band would?
Even if you're a covers band & not a tribute band, then I think that the band should put their stamp on it. I'm not saying play a completely different bassline & some songs you cannot get away with changing certain parts, but where you can, play it with your own style regardless of how good or rubbish you are at playing. It's about how you interpret the song.

An example is "Use Me" by Bill Withers. When my band first got together we decided to cover this, I'd never heard it before but from listening to what they was playing I created my own bassline for the song. I later on had a listen to the actual song & our version sounded very unlike the original but my bassline surprisingly wasn't far away from the original. I now play both basslines whenever we do this song (mainly as a texture thing). I wish I had a recording of it to let y'all hear, get some criticism on the good & bad in it.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='endorka' post='1082077' date='Jan 8 2011, 01:42 PM']Absolutely. I agree that sometimes a busked tune can be great, indeed there is a special place in my heart for such events.

However, in my experience, there is a danger of the odd success such as that mentioned above leading to the busking approach being elevated to a point that it doesn't really deserve most of the time. I know a lot of musicians who have fallen into this trap; they dismiss rehearsal/practice as not necessary, and think they are being creative, but in reality the resulting music is frequently shabby.

Jennifer[/quote]

Agreed.

[Mog]

[quote name='lowdown' post='1082060' date='Jan 8 2011, 01:29 PM']Not to mention the raging lunatic of a Conductor, and the brassed bra Lynit being chased by a Flying Dutchman on a winged Horse.
All down to discipline really [Or lack of it]




Garry[/quote]

True true!

[TheRockinRoadie]

This is quite interesting for me...

Personally, i think it depends on the song. Obviously, if the song is recognisable by the bassline, or there is a fill in the song that everyone remembers, then i'll stick more or less to the original, however, most of the time, i tend to play roughly the 'correct' line, and add a few fills and little improvisations where i deem appropriate. This is basically how the whole of my band works, so we end up with recognisable sons, made our own. This also means you dont end up sounding like every other covers band round these parts!

Interesting topic

[TheRockinRoadie]

[quote name='4-string-thing' post='1082071' date='Jan 8 2011, 01:38 PM']I would rather learn a song from chord charts (with the help of tabs, which are usually wrong anyway) then play something close to the original, but within my capabilities, than try to play the original and mess it up in front of an audience!

Obviously things like Alright Now and Eton Rifles would need to be as per the recordings, but most of the stuff my band does can be simplified, or are really easy anyway!

As I said in my earlier post "I like to THINK I am being creative" This doesn't necessarily mean I AM being creative.[/quote]


This is exactly what I do! Being a bedroom guitarist, i often find it easier to learn the chords from chord sheet/band member, and then work the rest out by ear, im not keen on TAB, and like 4stringthing said, theyre normally wrong anyway!

Cheers
L

[JakeBrownBass]

I've noticed a lot of people using the word "Creative" in this thread and while i agree with some points, i disagree with others.

I've seen way too many cover bands with one member being [i]creative[/i] and the rest playing it as per the record.

I think the only way to get it to work is by the group collectively being creative, otherwise, over 70% of the time it just doesn't sit right.

I've always thought of it as a rugby player turning up to play football. Yeh he can keep up with the team and kick the ball but as soon as he picks the ball up he ruins the game. But if they all turned up to play rugby, it'd be a different game altogether?

I know thats a crap analogy but it makes sense in my head

Also, pure creativeness surely has to be writing your own songs no??

Edited January 8, 2011 by J.R.Bass

[dlloyd]

[quote name='bubinga5' post='1082056' date='Jan 8 2011, 01:25 PM']Nicely spliced together there Loyd...But i didnt say i could play Good Times better than the original... Different yes... Im not talking changing the bass line but adding or taking away parts...[/quote]

Good Times is one of those tunes I would leave "as is". It's such an iconic, composed bassline that to alter it would just feel plain wrong.

Edited January 8, 2011 by dlloyd

[ironside1966]

I have said this many times before if there is a valid reason to change a line not a problem but if it because you can’t be bothered to learn the correct part, or worse still want to over play. Also what happens you stay well in your comfort zone not learning anything new just playing your well used chops. The type of person that gets thing right then this generally will shows up in the quality of a band as they will put the same amount of work or dedication into the band and not just busk.
There is no right and wrong in this argument but it says a lot about what type of player you are.

[nick]

[quote name='J.R.Bass' post='1082103' date='Jan 8 2011, 02:06 PM']I've noticed a lot of people using the word "Creative" in this thread and while i agree with some points, i disagree with others.

I've seen way too many cover bands with one member being [i]creative[/i] and the rest playing it as per the record.

I think the only way to get it to work is by the group collectively being creative, otherwise, over 70% of the time it just doesn't sit right.

I've always thought of it as a rugby player turning up to play football. Yeh he can keep up with the team and kick the ball but as soon as he picks the ball up he ruins the game. But if they all turned up to play rugby, it'd be a different game altogether?

I know thats a crap analogy but it makes sense in my head

Also, pure creativeness surely has to be writing your own songs no??[/quote]

Totally agree with you...
Big part of the reasoning in why I left my last band, was that it was only myself really endeavouring to learn the songs as close to the originals as possible, & putting the time in. The other members I recall, rather than using the term 'creative', used to similarly say we were 'putting our own stamp on the songs' - I think more like 'winging it'. Not good on Motown classics - some gigs I would cringe.
They were all seasoned 'pros' & believed that the audience didn't notice anyway. However, they were also so [s]unrehearsed[/s] creative, that they had to use karoake tracks on their web page masquerading as our music, with the singer doing his thing over the top! Too much for me... Me offski
Having said all the above, they're still getting the gigs albeit at working mens clubs around SW.... so maybe they were right, are audiences that clued up, does it matter?

Edited January 8, 2011 by nick

[flyfisher]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1081972' date='Jan 8 2011, 12:05 PM']Or better yet....

1. There are rules
2.You should know them before you can break them.

[/quote]
This is what makes Basschat such a great forum, IMHO. I've no idea of the proportion of amateur to professional musicians here but it's really valuable hearing the differing opinions.

On reflection, I agree with Doddy's refinement of my somewhat tongue-in-cheek 'no rules' rules and also Jennifer's comments and general perspective.

If I'm honest with myself, my perspective is as an amateur player and, frankly, I don't have the talent to play a lot of bass lines as they were originally recorded so it's an absolute blessing, for me, that it's possible to improvise something similar enough to be passable (by passable, I mean being able to play a gig and give the audience a good time).

But my perspective is based on my limited ability. If I could play an original bass line note-perfectly, why wouldn't I? Well, possibly for many of the reasons being mentioned, but the real point is that I would be making a positive choice to play however I wished, whereas the reality is that I'm usually limited by my ability.

I'm immensely impressed by anyone who can play from a sheet of nonsensical hieroglyphs (my interpretation
) and fully understands musical theory because I, like many amateurs I suspect, play mainly by ear and memory. It get's me by and it even earns me some plaudits on occasion, but I'm always acutely aware of my limitations.

But I do remember one curious incident at a party some years ago. There was a professional classical musician present and the party host had a piano, so out came some guitars and the guests eagerly awaited an impromptu jam session. Unfortunately, it quickly became obvious that the professional musician could not really improvise any popular songs. To stem the embarrassment, the host quickly dug out some of her sheet music and the pro was able to play anything that could be put in front of him.

Apologies for the ramble.

[xgsjx]

I know a few others have said "creative" also, but when I say it, I do not mean busking or winging it as there is often little creativity there unless the musician knows the song inside out.
A cover (as any song) should be well rehearsed before playing in public & if it's to be played in your own style then the same amount of effort should go into rewriting as would be done in an original song.
I still don't see why you'd want to play a load of songs the same as the original version was unless you're in a tribute or function band.

[xgsjx]

Oh, just remembered a good example you can hear.
Talas did a song called Shy Boy, Dave Lee Roth covered this & whilst it's recognisable as the same song, it's different & sounds like his song rather than a cover. Billy Sheehan plays bass on both versions & both basslines are different.
I spent ages learning Shy Boy note for note & other than at home, never played it to anyone. Canny mind most of it now as it's been years since I last played it.

[ThomBassmonkey]

Depends on the song. Something like Billy Jean would just sound wrong with a "creative" bassline in it.

Generally it depends what I'm doing. When I was at college, I learned entire songs note for note. Now I only play covers in a ska-ish band, so they're all totally re-written anyway. I think if I were to do a cover in a similar style to the original, I'd learn all the riffs, then change the runs to suit me so it's still "mine" but the groove matches the original.

[Chris2112]

If you're playing in a context where improvisation is happening, then some creative interpretation can be good as long as you keep it in check and the band doesn't end up playing three different songs at the same time!