Chris2112 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 You just couldn't try and cover Shawn Lane's "Not Again" and just make up a bassline as you went along. That bassline is just perfection coming from a Modulus Quantum (I am of course referring to the 'Powers of Ten, Live!' album). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earbrass Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Bilbo' post='1084226' date='Jan 10 2011, 02:11 PM']Good times is, subjectively, a shallow, nothing little tune (listen to the lyrics, ffs) that all of us [b]could[/b] quite easily live without.[/quote] and some of us [b]do[/b]! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumperbob 2002 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='dlloyd' post='1084208' date='Jan 10 2011, 01:57 PM']This might merit a whole new thread, but to what lengths do those of you in tribute bands go to perfect your basslines? Do you transcribe from a single source, say, the best known studio version... or do you go further and hunt out numerous live recordings and make a more studied analysis of how the original artists tackled the tunes?[/quote] Well speaking from a Soul band perspective- I try to get as near as possible to the original- this also includes the particular sound- is it muted- slapped- Jazz like or Precision- does it have thump or growl? Probably more important is that does it fit in with the band and is immediately recognisable? Mind you I have sometimes spent hours on one song simply because it was a pleasure- James`s For Once in My Life anyone? Cheers Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='thumperbob 2002' post='1084395' date='Jan 10 2011, 03:57 PM']Probably more important is that does it fit in with the band and is immediately recognisable? Mind you I have sometimes spent hours on one song simply because it was a pleasure- James`s For Once in My Life anyone? Cheers Bob[/quote] I wouldn't dare go out and play a Jamerson part without knowing most/if not all of of it, I think that would border on sacrilege! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassbluestew Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I recently spent hours and sweated blood learning the bass part for Robert Palmers "She makes my day" ( wedding band first dance, those who play in wedding bands know the hell of learning obscure songs never to be played again ) . It's a tune I like so it wasn't too much of a bind, and it's a tricky wee part. Once I got into it really wanted to nail it as best I could. Reh before the wedding was cancelled, showed up at the gig with the bass part nailed feeling very pleased with myself. As soon as we started playing it was obvious our normally reliable drummer had just not bothered - boy was I pissed. Having said that, the couple were delighted. Interestingly we are having huge debates whether we should reh so often or not. A vocal dep we used at the weeked said at the break, I love playing with you guys, you are so well rehearsed and make my job really easy. S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassbluestew Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I recently spent hours and sweated blood learning the bass part for Robert Palmers "She makes my day" ( wedding band first dance, those who play in wedding bands know the hell of learning obscure songs never to be played again ) . It's a tune I like so it wasn't too much of a bind, and it's a tricky wee part. Once I got into it really wanted to nail it as best I could. Reh before the wedding was cancelled, showed up at the gig with the bass part nailed feeling very pleased with myself. As soon as we started playing it was obvious our normally reliable drummer had just not bothered - boy was I pissed. Having said that, the couple were delighted. Interestingly we are having huge debates whether we should reh so often or not. A vocal dep we used at the weeked said at the break, I love playing with you guys, you are so well rehearsed and make my job really easy. S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Academy Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Bilbo' post='1084226' date='Jan 10 2011, 02:11 PM']It depends on a whole lot and especially the gig. I once got called for a one off £120 gig playing 32 cover tunes, 90% of which I had never played and the rest rarely. I settled for 'good enough' because, a, it was a one off gig and I was not going to need these tunes again, b, I didn't have the time to learn that many tunes that well and, c, the audience would not actually have been listening to that level of detail (a wedding). Other gigs require a greater investment. Its like all walks fo life. If I am speaking to a room full of people, the amount pf preparation will depend on the context, the people, what's at stake etc. I guess, if you are in a tribute band (:vomit:), you will need to nail the details but if, like me, you primarily play jazz, 'learning' the bass lines is anathema. Covers are a grey area as some are about replication whilst others are about interpretation. Personally, I would love to get to a point where I never play anyones lines but my own but that's nirvana I am never likely to reach. I guess it matters a lot sometimes and matters less at others. The only driver should be 'is the music the best it can be'. As for whether or not Bernard Edwards line on Good Times is perfect and cannot be improved? It isn't and it could. This is art not science. Good times is, subjectively, a shallow, nothing little tune (listen to the lyrics, ffs) that all of us could quite easily live without. And, yes, I play it on every wedding gig.[/quote] Sorry Bilbo, but I disagree with you regarding 'Good Times'. Care to improve on it? A shallow tune? Post us your take on it. Not your best post, mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumperbob 2002 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='risingson' post='1084711' date='Jan 10 2011, 07:37 PM']I wouldn't dare go out and play a Jamerson part without knowing most/if not all of of it, I think that would border on sacrilege![/quote] Have a look at our set list! Enjoyable though. Www.soul patrol.org.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Academy Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='thumperbob 2002' post='1084798' date='Jan 10 2011, 08:31 PM']Have a look at our set list! Enjoyable though. Www.soul patrol.org.uk[/quote] Ah, is that the band that's played the Oxford Arms in Stoke many times? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingson Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='thumperbob 2002' post='1084798' date='Jan 10 2011, 08:31 PM']Have a look at our set list! Enjoyable though. Www.soul patrol.org.uk[/quote] Great stuff TB, there's a band near me that share your band name strangely enough that do similar stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thumperbob 2002 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='risingson' post='1084811' date='Jan 10 2011, 08:41 PM']Great stuff TB, there's a band near me that share your band name strangely enough that do similar stuff! [/quote] My ten yr old daughter thought of the name and we had to use it! I imagine there's a few about! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Pete Academy' post='1083511' date='Jan 9 2011, 07:54 PM']I've just started playing with a local jazz-funk band. The set is instrumental-based, and includes 'Pick Up The Pieces' and 'Chameleon'. I would never play these lines other than how they are on the record. 'Chameleon' is an example of the bassline being the song, and 'PUTP' has a bass part that complements the song perfectly. I've heard players make that part busier, but for me it adds nothing. For me, making a recorded part busier is asking for trouble. 'Sex Machine' and 'Play That Funky Music' are prime examples.[/quote] I don't know, especially with those tracks you list - they're 'jam' tracks, playing tracks like that exactly the same each time sort of misses the point of a live band for me. Plus the bassline on chameleon's a synth, and the bass plays more like a guitar part. Even the Headhunters did it totally differently live, check out the part on 'Flood' which is brilliant fun. I enjoy listening to different players interpreting these parts in their own ways. The important thing to me is that the reworked part stays in keeping with the feel the band is going for. That's especially true for the 'Good Times' example, I disagree with Bilbo in that for me it's pretty much the blueprint for disco/funk groove but I still prefer hearing people play with it, otherwise I may as well just listen to the record. Having said that, it's not an easy one to play around on without stuffing it right up! Especially swing jazz players... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Academy Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='LawrenceH' post='1084837' date='Jan 10 2011, 09:01 PM']I don't know, especially with those tracks you list - they're 'jam' tracks, playing tracks like that exactly the same each time sort of misses the point of a live band for me. Plus the bassline on chameleon's a synth, and the bass plays more like a guitar part. Even the Headhunters did it totally differently live, check out the part on 'Flood' which is brilliant fun. I enjoy listening to different players interpreting these parts in their own ways. The important thing to me is that the reworked part stays in keeping with the feel the band is going for. That's especially true for the 'Good Times' example, I disagree with Bilbo in that for me it's pretty much the blueprint for disco/funk groove but I still prefer hearing people play with it, otherwise I may as well just listen to the record. Having said that, it's not an easy one to play around on without stuffing it right up! Especially swing jazz players...[/quote] Good post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
essexbasscat Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Not sure I can constructively add anything to the debate so far. However, some thoughts from reading the thread so far; - Take Layla as an example. If following a well known example of a song accurately is desirable, did Clapton get it wrong by re- arranging it for the unplugged set ? Re-arrangements of songs have been done for centuries, more recently by Hendrix making Dylan's All along the Watchtower his own, so successfully that many though Hendrix had written it. If songs are done with some skill and professionalism, those aspects will enhance the piece as a whole. When famous players give poor performances, it does get noticed. - Whatever happens to the desire to improve and become better players ? instead of going in with the attitude of 'That'll be good enough for the Dog and Duck', why not set out with the aim of becoming known as a good bassist ? it can only enhance your career. I daresay someone won't agree with the sentiments here, probably with genuine points of their own.It's only my opinion afterall. Not sure there are any correct absolutes with this topic anyway. Hope your next gig is a good'un, however you play it T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 But Clapton's unplugged version of 'Layla' was a totally new arrangement. It wasn't the original version with a 'creative' new bass part. Like I said earlier,there is a big difference between a band doing a new,cohesive arrangement of a tune and a band doing a cover where one or more members are 'busking' a different part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
essexbasscat Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Pretty much agree with you Doddy. Part of the trouble with this debate is the language itself i.e. 'creative' and creative, with a sliding scale of professionalism between the two. It's a minefield Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='essexbasscat' post='1084915' date='Jan 10 2011, 10:02 PM']- Take Layla as an example. If following a well known example of a song accurately is desirable, did Clapton get it wrong by re- arranging it for the unplugged set ?[/quote] Yes... yes he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 A bit OT, but I couldn't not comment...[quote name='bassbluestew' post='1084781' date='Jan 10 2011, 08:21 PM']Reh before the wedding was cancelled, showed up at the gig with the bass part nailed feeling very pleased with myself. As soon as we started playing it was obvious our normally reliable drummer had just not bothered - boy was I pissed. Having said that, the couple were delighted. Interestingly we are having huge debates whether we should reh so often or not. A vocal dep we used at the weeked said at the break, I love playing with you guys, you are so well rehearsed and make my job really easy. S[/quote]To be frank, if your band are playing weddings then you are duty bound to be as polished and well-rehearsed as you possibly can be. Max kudos to you for taking the time to practice the tune thoroughly, but your drummer needs a kick up the arse for not bothering to learn that couple's first dance song & I don't blame you in the slightest for being pissed off with him. I'd have been livid. OK, so the couple were delighted this time. But what if they'd spotted his slackness and been annoyed by it? How would [i]he[/i] feel if the most important dance of his life was spoiled because someone made a pig's breakfast of playing it 'cos he hadn't learned it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='essexbasscat' post='1084947' date='Jan 10 2011, 10:27 PM']Pretty much agree with you Doddy. Part of the trouble with this debate is the language itself i.e. 'creative' and creative, with a sliding scale of professionalism between the two. It's a minefield[/quote] Surely it's gotta depend on the nature of the gig, and just how exact we're talking? To re-work the Clapton example more generally, what about all those bands playing their own songs live with the same broad arrangement and not putting every single note in exactly the same order as the record, maybe embellishing it with fills etc. Are they wrong? Or is no-one but the original band allowed to improvise something ever? What about solos for other instruments? Are guitarists, saxes and the like allowed some creative freedom but none for the rhythm section. To my mind there are very particular occasions when an exact copy is required (certain tribute acts, notated gigs like big band or shows) but otherwise it makes live music tedious in the extreme if covers bands are just automata, and I speak as an audience member/music lover not just from a playing perspective. If that's what you want, why not just have a disco? That way any vocal part will sound 'right' too, and the production! A busked bassline from someone who hasn't bothered listening to an original to capture its essence is mostly annoying (though sometimes people come up with something new and interesting when freed from preconception), but a part that pays musical homage to the original while expanding upon it is exactly what it's all about for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 If the entire band is playing the song as per the original then the bass should stay the same. But I agree with Bilbo. I believe the best thing to do is change every part, apart from a few signature melodies etc & build the song back how your band would have written it. My band consist of me on bass/guitar, vocalist on banjo/guitar/synth & a mandolinist/ukulele/percussionist (spoons or bohdran) & occasionally have guest musicians join for a song or two (such as violinists) & we cover songs like "Rockin in the free world" or "White rabbit" & rewrite them completely then fully rehearse what we've done (including any guest musicians in on this process). I do play songs note for note as it's good practice, but it's rarely used in a band situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenochrome Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I have a problem with over-simplifying bass lines. Often something significant is missed out such as when the bass stays on one note while the guitars continue the chord progression which builds tension. When the bass just follows the guitar chords, these important aspects of songs are just missed out. This is criminal in my book and part of the essential interplay between guitar and bass. In the covers bands that I see, when the bassline is changed, it's often to the detriment of the song. However, adding fills to a song like Paranoid is of course fine, especially when the fills are similar to live versions played by BS and Ozzy's band anyway. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I guess it also depends of the gig you need to cover. If I am given a rough idea and it is pub set money, then I'll do pretty much all of it on the night. If there are a few numbers that need to be sorted I might give them a listen to see where the song goes and make a note or two, but for pub money I am not going to spend too much time on them unless there are more gigs down the line I want to do. You need to know the band, the gig and the money to decide how much time you are prepared to set aside. Of course, you also need to take into account how upto speed you think you will be... no point in going for the busk and falling flat... that will do no one any favours. I once had to learn 'living on a prayer' and I knew the band weren't that formal so anything written would still depend on the vocal cue so we ran it up in sound-check. It was fine and no problem, I thought, for the ear to hear the changes. Come showtime and the band started with that song..bad choice, imv, but not my gig, and whoa...... gtr is way too oud and in my ear and the sound check had now gone completely out of the window..and so did my vocal cues as I looked across and could see the singer at the mic but could not hear a thing.... It didn't get that much easier for me, but I think, in the circumstances I did really well. So, most bands play lip-service to on stage balance and some REALLY don't. Funily enough they used to be the most popular of bands round here... but I guess the punters are deaf now. I nearly was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 My view on Good Times? Its the classic problem with dance orientated music. 'Great' line (is it?) but the tune is actually bubble gum. [i]Good times, These are the good times, Leave your cares behind, These are the good times Good times, These are the good times, Our new state of mind, These are the good times Happy days are here again, The time is right, For makin' friends ,Let's get together, How 'bout a quarter to ten, Come tomorrow, Let's all do it again Boys will be boys, Better let them have their toys, Girls will be girls, Cute pony tails and curls Must put an end, To this stress and strife, I think I want to live the sporting life A rumor has it that, It's getting late, Time marches on, Just can't wait The clock keeps turning, Why hesitate, You silly fool, You can't change your fate Let's cut a rug, A little jive and jitterbug, We want the best, We won't settle for less Don't be a drag, Participate, Clams on the half shell, And roller-skates , Roller-skates[/i] Is it just me or is it junior school level poetry? I particularly liek the rhyming of boys and toys, girls and curls, late and wait.... Every rhyme is entirely predictable (the first thing that would come into most people's heads) and forced. It isn't Mark Twain, is it? At least Joni Mitchell doesn't have to worry about losing a grammy to Chic. I always think that the best songs are made up of great music and great lyrics. Good Times is essentially two riffs which are 4 bars long, both rifs are against the same two diatonic chords a perfect fourth apart. Probably the first chord change anyone with a guitar ever learns? The only thing that is even credible is the bass line and that, whilst it is iconic, is three notes on the beat followed by what is essentially a dorian minor scale (EF#GABC#DE) followed, in turn, by a slightly more interest lick on the A using the sixth and dominant seventh. The singers are [i]really[/i] lightweight (would never have made boot campm on X Factor) and the whole thing is just not very interesting. For me, and I stress again that this is and can only ever be subjective, Good Times evidence what I consider to be one of the maladys of musicians; we like the part so the whole tune must be good. Its a great bass line on a crap song. Like a lot of Jamerson, Marcus Miller, Pino etc - great players playing great lines on crap songs. Sax players like songs that make the sax player look good, as do guitarists, drummers and everyone else. Bass players are no different. Is that specific enough, Pete? I understand that people like it but they also like Mustang Sally and Moondance. This is as bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Brilliant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earbrass Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='Doddy' post='1085436' date='Jan 11 2011, 01:14 PM']Brilliant [/quote] +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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