Conan Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='Bilbo' post='1085427' date='Jan 11 2011, 01:05 PM']My view on Good Times? Its the classic problem with dance orientated music. 'Great' line (is it?) but the tune is actually bubble gum.[/quote] But Bilbo, you hit the nail on the head there. It is [i]dance[/i] music. It's all about sex and having a good time struttin' ya fonkay stuff dude. Most whirling dervishes and cavorting medallion-men will not be listening to the lyrics at all - except maybe in the chorus sections. Why is that a problem? Of course, It's OK to not like "dance music" [i]per se[/i], but to criticise it's content (or lack thereof) based on how complex its composition and lyrics are comes across as pretentious and small-minded IMV. Not that I would accuse you of being either of these things normally! Horses for courses, innit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='essexbasscat' post='1084915' date='Jan 10 2011, 10:02 PM']Whatever happens to the desire to improve and become better players ? instead of going in with the attitude of 'That'll be good enough for the Dog and Duck', why not set out with the aim of becoming known as a good bassist ? it can only enhance your career.[/quote] I both agree and disagree. To actively seek mediocrity is disappointing and ultimately unfulfilling. However, how will you ever be known as a "good bassist" if all you do is perform carbon-copies of other bassist's lines? Surely there is more to it than that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='Bilbo' post='1085427' date='Jan 11 2011, 01:05 PM']I always think that the best songs are made up of great music and great lyrics. Good Times is essentially two riffs which are 4 bars long, both rifs are against the same two diatonic chords a perfect fourth apart. Probably the first chord change anyone with a guitar ever learns? The only thing that is even credible is the bass line and that, whilst it is iconic, is three notes on the beat followed by what is essentially a dorian minor scale (EF#GABC#DE) followed, in turn, by a slightly more interest lick on the A using the sixth and dominant seventh. The singers are [i]really[/i] lightweight (would never have made boot campm on X Factor) and the whole thing is just not very interesting.[/quote] In the same reductionist manner, fish and chips - widely regarded as one of the world's classic dishes - could be described as "Marine protein in a gluten-based coating, submerged in hot lipid and served with fragments of subterranean tubers". Doesn't sound as appetising does it? But it's the same thing. Sometimes, the whole is more than the sum of the parts, and it doesn't stand up to analysis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='Conan' post='1085478' date='Jan 11 2011, 01:38 PM']I both agree and disagree. To actively seek mediocrity is disappointing and ultimately unfulfilling. However, how will you ever be known as a "good bassist" if all you do is perform carbon-copies of other bassist's lines? Surely there is more to it than that? [/quote] There are a lot of very good musicians around who do copy parts everyday-be they in some form of tribute show or theatre production or whatever.Many of these are top players-just because they are not creating new music doesn't make them any less of a musician. As far as mediocrity is concerned,there are an awful lot of mediocre musicians and bands about that are touted as being 'genius',which causes many younger players to aim for that level and not push to be better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I also think Fish and Chips is completely overrated = If Good Times is great dance music, great dance music is an oxymoron Pretentious? Moi? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
essexbasscat Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='Conan' post='1085478' date='Jan 11 2011, 01:38 PM']I both agree and disagree. To actively seek mediocrity is disappointing and ultimately unfulfilling. However, how will you ever be known as a "good bassist" if all you do is perform carbon-copies of other bassist's lines? Surely there is more to it than that? [/quote] You have some valid points there Conan. I'm certainly not going to try and define the qualities and attributes that make a good bassist, that's been the subject of numerous threads already. As for becoming a good, or better musician/bassist (or for progressing at many things FWIW), it seems philosphically sound to open up future possiblities in a spirit of exploration, rather than limiting things with definitions and absolutes. Only my opinion, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='Doddy' post='1085508' date='Jan 11 2011, 02:02 PM']There are a lot of very good musicians around who do copy parts everyday-be they in some form of tribute show or theatre production or whatever.Many of these are top players-just because they are not creating new music doesn't make them any less of a musician. As far as mediocrity is concerned,there are an awful lot of mediocre musicians and bands about that are touted as being 'genius',which causes many younger players to aim for that level and not push to be better.[/quote] Totally agree! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='Bilbo' post='1085510' date='Jan 11 2011, 02:05 PM']I also think Fish and Chips is completely overrated =[/quote] Me too! It wasn't a very good example in hindsight... but I was hungry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='essexbasscat' post='1085515' date='Jan 11 2011, 02:11 PM']As for becoming a good, or better musician/bassist (or for progressing at many things FWIW), it seems philosphically sound to open up future possiblities in a spirit of exploration, rather than limiting things with definitions and absolutes.[/quote] What he said. I think... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='Conan' post='1085478' date='Jan 11 2011, 01:38 PM']I both agree and disagree. To actively seek mediocrity is disappointing and ultimately unfulfilling. However, how will you ever be known as a "good bassist" if all you do is perform carbon-copies of other bassist's lines? Surely there is more to it than that? [/quote] Being 'known' is over-rated. Having fun is where it's at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojo Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='Bilbo' post='1085427' date='Jan 11 2011, 01:05 PM']Good Times is essentially two riffs which are 4 bars long, The only thing that is even credible is the bass line and that, whilst it is iconic, is three notes on the beat followed by what is essentially a dorian minor scale (EF#GABC#DE) followed, in turn, by a slightly more interest lick on the A using the sixth and dominant seventh.[/quote] You've just listed the ingredients for a formula that gets all age groups dancing at every function i've ever played it at , but having said that they also all dance some modern hits I consider rubbish Bilbo, if your ever round my way, I'll shout you and change your mind about fish n chips (assuming my local doesn't change hands and go back to the norm) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 (edited) [quote name='dlloyd' post='1085552' date='Jan 11 2011, 02:43 PM']Being 'known' is over-rated. Having fun is where it's at.[/quote] Depends. Known by whom? If I overheard Geddy Lee saying "Man, that fat, ugly, bald Geordie bass player is pretty tasty" I'd be rather chuffed! Edited January 11, 2011 by Conan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='dlloyd' post='1085552' date='Jan 11 2011, 02:43 PM']Having fun is where it's at.[/quote] Fun is overated. I think it should be something you have when you are doing something satisfying and of value and not just an end in itself. Fun, on its own, can be pretty boring and aimless. I never watch comedies because they don't seem to have much point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emmaemme Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 As long as 'exactly' does NOT refer to fifty-page-long tabs where no two bars are identical... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlloyd Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='Bilbo' post='1085572' date='Jan 11 2011, 03:04 PM']Fun is overated. I think it should be something you have when you are doing something satisfying and of value and not just an end in itself.[/quote] Yep, that's how I'd define fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
algmusic Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 (edited) [quote name='bubinga5' post='1081551' date='Jan 7 2011, 09:50 PM']I will start this off by saying, im up for anyone playing an exact version of a bassline... But... it always gets my goat when someone says..."yeah but its not quite the bass line is it"?? i had a discussion with a guitarist this evening whos in the Latin Funk, Disco band im involved in... he likes...and likes everyone else to follow the exact blue print of the original...i aint got a problem.......ok i have got a problem with this... A bass line is written by someone else, but why not simplify it, or throw in some fills, or feel of your own...i like to think im a very tasteful player, who understands what (i think) sounds good... maybe were having musical differences... when im playing, sometimes i will just just suggest a bass line or chord without playing the whole thing in an intro or some parts of a song....thats what i like to do, and i think it gives it a little live something that original doesnt have... Ive heard bass lines played ..better than the original...slightly different...simplified.... as long as your within the structure and get the feel of the track... Chic's Good Times...i will throw a double stop of G C sharp in there high up... not a total DS but played G to C very quick..does he like it... nope... Rant over[/quote] Back to the real question.. Covering Basslines? You have two options do it or not however, if you fail to do that you many not get called to play the gig. Also, some can play the all the notes right but lack feel, but that is still different from getting the notes wrong. I totally see both sides of this, I love to adlib and that's how I started, but now I'm older I question why I want to change it, it is because : 1) I can't be bothered, as I have far too many songs to learn in one night (we've all been there) or there's something else I'd rather do 2) I can't play it or can't translate the track, which is why some "adlib" 3) or I've learnt it note for note and but it feels like it needs more If i'm playing for someone new, I always go for note for note, then I still have room to build on that, if needed. I have to question if someone hasn't played it properly first how can you adlib?... you're actually blagging it. Also If I've hired you and you haven't learnt it, you embarrass the band. If I'm hiring a band last minute there are a few guys that I'd call because I know they will play the song note for note as we don't have time to get it wrong, once everything is in place, MAYBE there is time for adlib, but most of the time it isn't. There is great talent in playing note for note.. they're call pro's.. After that you might get asked to 'do your thing', then that's great too.. It's funny, I'm starting to see the readers vs the none readers divide again.. He he. I'm not sure you'll guess which I am :-) Edited January 11, 2011 by algmusic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
achknalligewelt Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Also, who's to say the recorded version is somehow sacrosanct? Basslines are not that important for most casual listeners, and frankly, a lot of bands. People like Bernie Edwards or James Jamerson are very, very rare, especially in the 1960's, which is the era of our repertoire. Even big names would sometimes just toss out something and say 'That'll do'. For example, I really don't think the bassline on Let's Spend the Night Together is good enough. It's a killer song, but all Keef did (Bill couldn't even be bothered to play on it) was hit root notes. Rubbish. Give it some flair and urgency. However, the bass on I Saw Her Standing There is perfect, because MacCartney gave a damn about the low end, so I abandoned one entirely but learned the other by rote. Good Times is essentially a long (if repetitive) bass solo, so you'd keep it because it's the tune, but if you're playing Build Me Up Buttercup or Baby It's You, who knows how the bass on that should go anyway? Do what feels right for your band and after a few runs through, you'll have it nailed your own way. My thought here is that we are a band (The Solutions, available for weddings and parties, call now), and as a band we have a sound that we've worked out and come to over the years of playing and rehearsing together. We've said several times that people respond as much to our sound and performance as our songs and playing, so we keep to the formula. We like energy and a bit of room-shaking R+B. Basically, we want everybody to dance, so we make a sound that does just that. With that in mind, for me it's as much about sounding like The Solutions as sounding like Bill Wyman. Plus, we are in danger of losing sight of the fact that 90% of an audience at a birthday party don't care even if a guitar solo is wrong, let alone a bassline. However, we've found that because that 90% of people are going to want to sing along, that's the bit you need to get right, and hang your sound around. As long as the band are making the kind of sound people want to dance to and pay to bring to a party, then that's how I will work. You can tell I'm not a pro... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojo Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 (edited) [quote name='algmusic' post='1085640' date='Jan 11 2011, 03:57 PM']It's funny, I'm starting to see the readers vs the none readers divide again.. He he. I'm not sure you'll guess which I am :-)[/quote] That maybe true, but im not sure why it would appear here, as it seems we are talking about covering middle of the road pop music and if we stray from the recorded take and id guess both camps would approach this by ear and experience I am only starting to learn the dots, but I can already see that the books of dots I have don't give you more than the basics and you have to listen for the fills and frills anyhow (just like tab ) Do readers approach learning simple enough covers different to us peasants ? Edited January 11, 2011 by lojo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xgsjx Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='algmusic' post='1085640' date='Jan 11 2011, 03:57 PM']Back to the real question.. Covering Basslines? You have two options do it or not however, if you fail to do that you many not get called to play the gig. Also, some can play the all the notes right but lack feel, but that is still different from getting the notes wrong. I totally see both sides of this, I love to adlib and that's how I started, but now I'm older I question why I want to change it, it is because : 1) I can't be bothered, as I have far too many songs to learn in one night (we've all been there) or there's something else I'd rather do 2) I can't play it or can't translate the track, which is why some "adlib" 3) or I've learnt it note for note and but it feels like it needs more If i'm playing for someone new, I always go for note for note, then I still have room to build on that, if needed. I have to question if someone hasn't played it properly first how can you adlib?... you're actually blagging it. Also If I've hired you and you haven't learnt it, you embarrass the band. If I'm hiring a band last minute there are a few guys that I'd call because I know they will play the song note for note as we don't have time to get it wrong, once everything is in place, MAYBE there is time for adlib, but most of the time it isn't. There is great talent in playing note for note.. they're call pro's.. After that you might get asked to 'do your thing', then that's great too.. It's funny, I'm starting to see the readers vs the none readers divide again.. He he. I'm not sure you'll guess which I am :-)[/quote] Where I'd agree with you of it was a strict covers band (or tribute act/show band etc), I wouldn't if it's an originals band that throws in covers or if the entire band was collaberating on changes to the song (even just to rework the ending as opposed to a fade out). The original question was about the guitarist wanting to play the original exact & the OP doesn't. I'd ask the rest of the band if they're happy reworking the parts of the song that you want to change & if you've got a bassline you want to use as opposed to the original, then work with the band to get them locking in with you. If the band want to do every song as the original recording, then you have 2 options: A) Lump it & learn the bass parts as they should be or Start a band that let's you play how you want. I agree that random busking is amature, but playing covers just like the originals over & over can quickly lose it's fun factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='Bilbo' post='1085572' date='Jan 11 2011, 03:04 PM']Fun is overated. I think it should be something you have when you are doing something satisfying and of value and not just an end in itself. Fun, on its own, can be pretty boring and aimless. I never watch comedies because they don't seem to have much point [/quote] Seriously?! Man, then no wonder you don't like Chic! But if you can see that something meets a criteria well albeit it's a different set of criteria than what you would set, then you can't really dismiss it like that - you've just gone from sort-of objective analysis to entirely subjective. If I heard it played differently in a way that didn't meet those criteria I'd think it was crap, unless it added something completely new to compensate. I'm guessing you'd feel the same if someone took a 'serious' jazz track that you like and stripped out all that made it jazz. By the way and in the politest possible way I think your analysis of the line misses the point entirely. My wife (many years of ballet/jazz/modern/fusion dancing) thinks it's a brilliant line justifying that with a totally different set of criteria related to how the rhythmic interplay between instruments creates contrast, space and emphasis for moving the body. In contrast she has no time for things like Coltrane because that element of jazz has been subsumed! It's much easier to do analyses based on harmony/scales but quite often they're just not relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='Bilbo' post='1085572' date='Jan 11 2011, 03:04 PM']Fun is overated. I think it should be something you have when you are doing something satisfying and of value and not just an end in itself. Fun, on its own, can be pretty boring and aimless. I never watch comedies because they don't seem to have much point [/quote] An interesting view point, although I do sometimes fear that you may have missed the point...... Not just with this issue, but life in general..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I know what you think I mean but you are wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojo Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 (edited) Im not sure how we got from "covering lines exactly or not" to "i don't watch comedies, cause there is no point" ? Comedy is surely similar to music, books and films? it can provide a complete escape from reality or can do the complete opposite and make you think about real issues, its just different platforms Whilst on the comedy subject I doctored this quote from a well known comedy to sum up some of the views I've just read on Good Times (not mine BTW) ... I think Good Times set a new high in altruistic, self-indulgent, bullshit, mollycoddled, you know... mother-my-dark-instinct disco music. I thought it was a piece of pimply sh*t from the worst kind of city ghetto, probably populated by winos, junkies and just general all-round f***-ups. Im up for Bilbo hosting a chat show Edited January 11, 2011 by lojo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doddy Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='lojo' post='1085719' date='Jan 11 2011, 05:07 PM']I am only starting to learn the dots, but I can already see that the books of dots I have don't give you more than the basics and you have to listen for the fills and frills anyhow (just like tab )[/quote] You need to look at some more detailed scores where everything is written out. [quote name='lojo' post='1085719' date='Jan 11 2011, 05:07 PM']Do readers approach learning simple enough covers different to us peasants ?[/quote] Of course they do-You listen and you learn. Possibly the only difference being that if you have to learn a lot of tunes in a short period the reader can jot down the basic notes/rhythms etc. if necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='LawrenceH' post='1085754' date='Jan 11 2011, 05:24 PM']By the way and in the politest possible way I think your analysis of the line misses the point entirely. My wife (many years of ballet/jazz/modern/fusion dancing) thinks it's a brilliant line justifying that with a totally different set of criteria related to how the rhythmic interplay between instruments creates contrast, space and emphasis for moving the body. In contrast she has no time for things like Coltrane because that element of jazz has been subsumed! It's much easier to do analyses based on harmony/scales but quite often they're just not relevant.[/quote] You are not seriously suggesting that Coltrane and Chic have a different target audience, are you? God forbid . My dig a Good Times is simply a wry dig at the deification of certain bands/certain songs and lines as 'the best' or as 'definitive etc when it is so, err, unremarkable. I know perfectly well that Good Times will fill a dance floor and A Love Supreme would clear it but, if you want to fill a dance floor I recommend I Will Survive, Summer Loving, Come On Eileen or any one of 1,000,000 songs. All you need is a backbeat and familiarity. Good Times is perfectly adequate for the purpose described but 'the greatest'? Hard for me to see why that over any one of 100 other disco hits. (Actually, my Brazillian band always turns heads when we do a bossa version of 'How Deep Is Your Love' by the Bee Gees - they're disco, aren't they?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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