Troubles of a determined induvidual

[agoulding]

Right, very recently I visited my father who hasn't really taken an interest in my bass playing exploits. Infact, he saw me play for the first time EVER literally weeks ago, and I've been playing for nearly 8 years.
I don't see my father much and tbf, he was shocked and also very impressed. He said to me i was "wasted" doing what i am doing (I am a simple store operative at marks and spencer) which is fair enough. I don't doubt my playing abilities, I know for a fact i can make something of them. He said it himself, he even said i was more talented than Ellie (wtf?!).
Now, I look up to this guy, even though he has never had a big input in my life. He has never encouraged me to do anything, never acknowleged me for anything i have done, but i look up to him because he has been there and done it. He's a great guitar player and has been playing longer than i have been on this planet. So it's only natural that I still listen to him, right (point aside he is my dad, but i see him as much as rick waller sees salad)?

My point is, upon seeing me play, he said i could get very far with my playing and I should pursue it as a career. This really, really inspired me and I am currently working on material. Something struck me though, I didn't really like what he said, he said my music lacked feel. So Im asking you guys, what is feel? surely if you have written something and it means something to you, that is feel, and that is all that matters right? do others need to see the meaning or purpose behind your music?? sure, some people may be able to se it/hear it, but youre the only one that knows deep inside what its all about?

Aaaaaand one mooooreee thing. Have you ever experienced anything that has really given you the drive and inspiration to "go for it"? and what inspires you more than anything??

[bubinga5]

[quote name='agoulding' post='1081759' date='Jan 8 2011, 02:37 AM']Right, very recently I visited my father who hasn't really taken an interest in my bass playing exploits. Infact, he saw me play for the first time EVER literally weeks ago, and I've been playing for nearly 8 years.
I don't see my father much and tbf, he was shocked and also very impressed. He said to me i was "wasted" doing what i am doing (I am a simple store operative at marks and spencer) which is fair enough. I don't doubt my playing abilities, I know for a fact i can make something of them. He said it himself, he even said i was more talented than Ellie (wtf?!).
Now, I look up to this guy, even though he has never had a big input in my life. He has never encouraged me to do anything, never acknowleged me for anything i have done, but i look up to him because he has been there and done it. He's a great guitar player and has been playing longer than i have been on this planet. So it's only natural that I still listen to him, right (point aside he is my dad, but i see him as much as rick waller sees salad)?

My point is, upon seeing me play, he said i could get very far with my playing and I should pursue it as a career. This really, really inspired me and I am currently working on material. Something struck me though, I didn't really like what he said, he said my music lacked feel. So Im asking you guys, what is feel? surely if you have written something and it means something to you, that is feel, and that is all that matters right? do others need to see the meaning or purpose behind your music?? sure, some people may be able to se it/hear it, but youre the only one that knows deep inside what its all about?

Aaaaaand one mooooreee thing. Have you ever experienced anything that has really given you the drive and inspiration to "go for it"? and what inspires you more than anything??[/quote]Well for a start off. its great ur dad is encouraging you to take the bass further.. im thinking not many parents do...You gotta do what your passion tells you to IMO...

anyway, yes mate, what you have written is' having feel'...but its maybe different from what your dad is suggesting...i could be wrong?, but he may be saying a physical feel with the instrument...im no expert, i can only relay what i erm...feel...or dont...

I think feel comes from a bit of playing.. listening,, a bit more playing... some people get a good feel from a certain type of music,

without wanting to sound cheesy, feel comes from your soul.. or.. the connection from your ears, to your brain, to your fingers..then back and back again.. its what you really want to play for me.. lots of guys can get feel from any music..

i really believe if you really love music in any capacity...you have got feel... because it will eventually come out in your playing...

i always thought of Paul Turner to be a player with no character...fantastic player, but no Zender.. Zender had groove and feel..

for me its your interpretation of your personality...its why i love Meshell Ndegeocello so much..lots of players i love have got personality..i just happen to like hers...

just like a certain type of speak, slang, or walk, or the way you hold your self....feel is in everything...... your feel is you.. the more you play bass and listen to stuff... the more the music you have experienced the more it will come out in your playing...

there are guys/girls who will give you a way better explanation on here.....im waffling..

Edited January 8, 2011 by bubinga5

[Lozz196]

"Feel" is very difficult to describe, but the easiest way I can try and put it into words is listen to either David Gilmour or Slash play a lead guitar solo.

And then listen to a local band playing their songs, and wait for the guitarist to do the solo.

Most guitarists will play the solos perfectly, but many don`t capture the feel behind them.

I`ve always found music like Metallica to be without feel. Technically perfect, really tight, but somehow "sterile" in the sound. Almost too perfect, but lacking emotion.

[Norm]

I'm in agreement with Lozz196, a lot of stuff can be technically excellent but to me after half the song, when the "wow, he/she's got some chops" has gone, sound really dull & lifeless. Its a hard one feel, as it can come & go. Depends on lots of factors, who you are playing with, what you are playing, etc etc. Was your dads comment about your playing or your songs?
Cheers,
Norm

[bassbloke]

The whole 'feel' argument often smacks of hypocrisy to me. The album and single charts are full of dance, rock, indie or pop by numbers songs with zero individuality and, IMHO, zero feel. What I do see though, is plenty of artists that use every interview opportunity to sell their latest release as something that took loads of blood, sweat and tears, thereby implying that it has bags of emotion and, by association, feel.

[agoulding]

cheers for the replies so far!!

I played him some of my material, and he suggested i needed to play it with more "feel". I just don't understand. The first person i thought of when it came to feel was dave gilmour actually! To me, my songs are great and im proud of what i have achieved. Ive worked extremely hard to obtain the skills i have and it was rather unsettling to hear the things he said!

[endorka]

I've been thinking about this recently, and having just read "Zen and the art of Motorcycle Maintainance" I would suggest that "feel" is roughly akin to Pirsig's definition of "quality".

I agree that "feel" comes from the connection between mind/soul/heart and your ability to express that through your instrument. How to achieve this? By listening to those that have it. By observing people's responses to your music. By playing with other musicians, it becomes obvious when the music "flows" and the quality is pervasive. Note when things work and when they don't, and adjust accordingly.

In my experience, the devil is in the details, and the level of detail always increases the deeper you get, just like a fractal image. But as you get deeper, the quality increases.

Jennifer

[Balcro]

A sort of distant , tough-love sort of guy your Dad. Guitar player, hmmm? Bass player ?

Well, I'd start with your favourite songs and remind yourself why you like them? When did you first hear them,
what were the surroundings/social situation at the time, was there something inspirational in the songs?
Was there something in the song(s) that made laugh, cry, jump up and down with joy.

Now go away and play them. Then play them with a twist. Emphasise certain notes and not others.
Drop in some notes played behind the beat; bend some notes. All the little frills you already know.
Make the bass line your own. When you feel comfortable with YOUR lines, go and get a lesson or two
from a basschatter and get to work on "expression". No need to tell your Dad about the lessons.

What drives this video?

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGuEagHDL9M"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGuEagHDL9M[/url]

Is it the song, is it the iconic American 40 year-old restored loudspeaker, is it the patriotic fist pumping, is it the facial expressions? Sure, it's a performance. But hell no, it's all of these and more.

Go for it. Good luck.

Balcro.

PS. Play it loud!

Edited January 8, 2011 by Balcro

[dlloyd]

[quote name='agoulding' post='1081759' date='Jan 8 2011, 02:37 AM']Something struck me though, I didn't really like what he said, he said my music lacked feel. So Im asking you guys, what is feel? surely if you have written something and it means something to you, that is feel, and that is all that matters right?

*snip*

He's a great guitar player and has been playing longer than i have been on this planet. So it's only natural that I still listen to him, right (point aside he is my dad, but i see him as much as rick waller sees salad)?[/quote]

I know a lot of people who've been playing longer than you've been alive and who have zero concept of feel.

It may be that he just doesn't like your style of music.

[HMX]

[quote name='bassbloke' post='1081929' date='Jan 8 2011, 11:23 AM']The whole 'feel' argument often smacks of hypocrisy to me. The album and single charts are full of dance, rock, indie or pop by numbers songs with zero individuality and, IMHO, zero feel. What I do see though, is plenty of artists that use every interview opportunity to sell their latest release as something that took loads of blood, sweat and tears, thereby implying that it has bags of emotion and, by association, feel.[/quote]
Agreed. To me, feel = substance, but it is so hard to put into words on a forum.

[clauster]

Feel free to disregard this. I'm interpreting what your dad meat through your reporting of his words on an internet forum

I'd say that if he was impressed by your playing, he can't think it's devoid of feel. More that, from his perspective it could benefit from more feel. Putting more feel into your playing could mean another listener hears your playing as being self-indulgent (perhaps).

[Norm]

+1 to the "play it loud". Play it like you mean it, you wrote it, make it belong to you. Practice until it becomes automatic & effortless.

Also, to your other point of what inspires? Anybody who gets up & does their stuff inspires me, as a mate of mine (guitarist, i don't hold it against him!) says "its too easy not to do it" so take the harder road, keep doing it, keep learning, trust your gut instincts (they're usually right).
All the best,
Norm.

[oldslapper]

You could write a song about this recent experience with your dad.......you are already feeling emotions about this.
We communicate feel, which is our interpretation of an emotion, through our playing/writing?

My daughter and i have just been listening to Bond theme tunes in the car for the last 2 hours and dissecting them.
Huge difference in the feel of each song as the artist interpret the songs.

Bassey/Jones/Gladys Knight/KD Laing all communicated emotion as they interpreted the songs.

AHA, Duran Duran, Madonna, no emotion or feel, just cold whining indulgence.

I don't know what your dad really meant, only he does, but perhaps you could ask him more and tap into this new connection with him.

I am talking out of my a@#e as usual, so take no notice.

[icastle]

[quote name='agoulding' post='1081759' date='Jan 8 2011, 02:37 AM']Right, very recently I visited my father who hasn't really taken an interest in my bass playing exploits. Infact, he saw me play for the first time EVER literally weeks ago, and I've been playing for nearly 8 years.
I don't see my father much and tbf, he was shocked and also very impressed. He said to me i was "wasted" doing what i am doing (I am a simple store operative at marks and spencer) which is fair enough. I don't doubt my playing abilities, I know for a fact i can make something of them. He said it himself, he even said i was more talented than Ellie (wtf?!).
Now, I look up to this guy, even though he has never had a big input in my life. He has never encouraged me to do anything, never acknowleged me for anything i have done, but i look up to him because he has been there and done it. He's a great guitar player and has been playing longer than i have been on this planet. So it's only natural that I still listen to him, right (point aside he is my dad, but i see him as much as rick waller sees salad)?

My point is, upon seeing me play, he said i could get very far with my playing and I should pursue it as a career. This really, really inspired me and I am currently working on material. Something struck me though, I didn't really like what he said, he said my music lacked feel. So Im asking you guys, what is feel? surely if you have written something and it means something to you, that is feel, and that is all that matters right? do others need to see the meaning or purpose behind your music?? sure, some people may be able to se it/hear it, but youre the only one that knows deep inside what its all about?

Aaaaaand one mooooreee thing. Have you ever experienced anything that has really given you the drive and inspiration to "go for it"? and what inspires you more than anything??[/quote]

Trying to describe 'feel' using written words is a little bit like trying to describe an aroma, but here goes...

Feel is about locking into the rhythm of what's going on around you, it's about painting in fine detail with sound.
Feel is about knowing what you and your instrument are capable of together and knowing which notes need to be left unplayed.
Feel is about instinct, understanding and acceptance of the image and emotion that the tune is trying to convey to the audience.

'Drive and inspiration' varies massively from one person to the next.
For me it's acknowledging to myself that I've done a good job, the 'icing on the cake' comes from other people acknowledging that I've done a good job - even though I find it a toe curling experience...

As for your Dad, has it occured to you that being a somewhat 'distant' parent possibly made his recognition of your musical abilities worth 100x more than one of your mates saying "that's good"?
I'm in no way judging your Dad (I come from an extremely disparate family) but I'm guessing it must have been a hard thing for him to say having not been hugely supportive in the past.

[agoulding]

i love some of these posts, they have struck a chord with me, thanks guys i really appreciate it. I dont write music with expereinces in mind, i just poop music. Some of it is pretty rubbish, some of it is great (in my opinion). many people have suggested writing from personal experiences but i dont know how to translate that into music, my songs just come naturally from me and alot of it is inspired from artists i regard as great players, such as larry graham and stanley clarke. I'd like my music to be like a comic book, animated and abstract but i want it to, tell a story in a way.

apologies for the sh*te grammar.

[LiamPodmore]

To me feel is putting emotion into what your playing. As mentioned above, people like Slash really feel the music, put their heart and soul into it, etc...

Liam

[LukeFRC]

i think it's great that he's showing an interest. Why not ask him to show you what he means, playing guitar that long im sure he would have something you could learn from

[Apex]

Don't be downhearted! You might like to ask him whether he meant that the music lacked feel or whether he thought it was your playing.

I'm a very average (or worse!) bass player, and often in practice or when I'm nervous I'm focussed on the notes, the fingering, listening to the rest of the band and making sure my timing is right. In short doing my best to be good technically and support the rest. In a gig, which is going well, people up dancing - then the music just seems to flow and I start to do things with the beat and some of the runs that just doesn't come in a studio. I've listened to recordings of myself and the only word I have for the difference is 'feel'. Really good guys can turn it on at will.

If it's the music he's talking about that's much more subjective and thank God we don't all like the same thing. I guess there are few of us that don't engage almost instantly with a pumping beat and bass groove, or soaring melodies, whether they come from a choir and orchestra or a wailing Les Paul at the hands of the Mr Top Hat!

[TimR]

Feel is essentially [b]how[/b] you play the notes.

Some people have good natural feel, others have to work at it.

An extreme example-
Imagine Steven Hawkins reading versus Stephen Fry.
Then imagine Steven Fry reading poetry and imagine him reading Harry Potter.

You're probably playing all the right notes in all the right places, but some notes should be long and some short, some have more emphasis than others. You are probably doing this already but the length you play a particular long note and the way I would play it will be different. That's your feel vs my feel.

There is also advanced stuff like playing ahead, on and behind the beat, laying back, pushing etc

Music isn't just about what notes you play and when its about [b]how[/b] you play them.

[Brookesy13]

[quote name='TimR' post='1082740' date='Jan 8 2011, 11:25 PM']Music isn't just about what notes you play and when its about [b]how[/b] you play them.[/quote]

Just what I was going to say.

My analogy is that B.B King can put more "feel" into one note then a metal band can put into a whole song.

This is just my way of thinking about it.

[Prime_BASS]

[quote name='Brookesy13' post='1082823' date='Jan 9 2011, 12:26 AM']Just what I was going to say.

My analogy is that B.B King can put more "feel" into one note then a metal band can put into a whole song.

This is just my way of thinking about it.[/quote]

IMO feel is as subjective as anything else.

Your dad probably doesnt "feel" it, but have you tried playing to anyone else. They might feel it ten fold... maybe.

Brookesy's comment is perfect. He doesnt feel metal music, where as a hardcore metal fan probably does.

If you think of music as telling a story, some people will understand it and some people just dont.
Same way I dont understand Dubstep.

[tauzero]

[quote name='agoulding' post='1081759' date='Jan 8 2011, 02:37 AM']My point is, upon seeing me play, he said i could get very far with my playing and I should pursue it as a career. This really, really inspired me and I am currently working on material. Something struck me though, I didn't really like what he said, he said my music lacked feel. So Im asking you guys, what is feel? surely if you have written something and it means something to you, that is feel, and that is all that matters right? do others need to see the meaning or purpose behind your music?? sure, some people may be able to se it/hear it, but youre the only one that knows deep inside what its all about?

Aaaaaand one mooooreee thing. Have you ever experienced anything that has really given you the drive and inspiration to "go for it"? and what inspires you more than anything??[/quote]
What was the context? Were you playing with a band or with sequenced instruments/drum machine? It's not necessarily about your playing but about the gestalt of the song.

My dad first saw me perform a few months ago, and that's after I'd been playing about 35 years, so consider yourself favoured!

[xilddx]

[quote name='agoulding' post='1082349' date='Jan 8 2011, 05:45 PM']i love some of these posts, they have struck a chord with me, thanks guys i really appreciate it. I dont write music with expereinces in mind, i just poop music. Some of it is pretty rubbish, some of it is great (in my opinion). many people have suggested writing from personal experiences but i dont know how to translate that into music, my songs just come naturally from me and alot of it is inspired from artists i regard as great players, such as larry graham and stanley clarke. I'd like my music to be like a comic book, animated and abstract but i want it to, tell a story in a way.

apologies for the sh*te grammar.[/quote]
Alex, why don't you post up the song and we will decide if it lacks or has feel.

Feel is a deeply ambiguous property. What he possibly meant was HE didn't feel it.

I was playing fretless with my drum machine last night and got a riff going that gave me the shivers! I was so excited that I wanted the mrs to drop everything and come and listen. The amount of feel, subtle nuance and variation I was able to get into it surpassed most of my musical output ever in terms of feel. It was sick! I had a quick break for a ciggie and a swig of wine. Five minutes later I was back in my studio playing the riff again. I didn't feel the riff, nothing, empty. After about ten minutes I was back into it but not quite with the shivers I got the first time.

I think [i]feel [/i]is a circumstantial byproduct. On stage I would get the feel back with that riff, playing with a real drummer too, or having an audience in the studio. But it's different for everyone. I think it's down to personality. It's can be a very subtle difference between feel or no feel () Nothing gets me to play with more feel than having a vocalist to play to, or some form of soloist like a sax player. All that wonderful reharmonisation potential! But you have to play music that gets you off otherwise you are simulating feel, not really feeling it.

Sometime what I do when playing songs I've played for years is to concentrate on the snare instead of the hi-hat, or the backing vocal, or the keys. It can breathe new life into my lines as there are diffferent rhythmic and harmonic emphases that I haven't concentrated on before. I can get excited again.

</waffle>

[Randy_Marsh]

[quote]Alex, why don't you post up the song and we will decide if it lacks or has feel[/quote]

+1

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

Sounds like you're doin' fine . Getting 'feel' doesn't always come naturally and has to be worked at.
Trying not to be too flashy ,not doing too much slap and not playing 10,000 notes helps.

Relaxing also helps. When Iwas learning stuff years ago,(covers),I was mainly learning root notes.
I was fairly 'competent' I guess , learning in almost parrot fashion. The songs were learnt -but without feel.
I didn't play many bad gigs (my nervous enthusiasm heped).

However, I learnt in time , to take it easy ,play the whole scale of the song and relax.
I cut out the poor attempt at slapping, made more efffort with the plectrum and stopped stressing myself out about learning stuff.

I know that I'm far from being a great bass player , but I'm alot better than I was. It takes time.