51m0n Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Really you want something like an Avalon DI into a big (BIG) power amp into a Barefaced BigOne, but you better be ready for the depth of low end that would chuck out. You cant have it both ways though, you either want flat or punchy (ie not flat). The OP suggest not flat but punchy.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merton Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='JTUK' post='1084300' date='Jan 10 2011, 02:56 PM']'Nearly true'... what the **** is that supposed to mean when you pile a doom gig into it.[/quote] Nearly true flat, as in getting a truly flat response is physically impossible [quote]If they do what you want them to do and you think they are a good deal, then fine.[/quote] Aye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) [quote name='JTUK' post='1084300' date='Jan 10 2011, 02:56 PM']'Nearly true'... what the **** is that supposed to mean when you pile a doom gig into it. If they do what you want them to do and you think they are a good deal, then fine.[/quote] I honestly don't understand your problem with me - why are you resorting to ridicule? And what has 'doom' got to do with it?! The OP asked for flat, clean, neutral and lightweight. Pretty much the opposite of 'doom'. Flat isn't subjective, it's trivially measurable. The only realistic way to achieve something close to flat and clean across the whole audio spectrum at high volume is with multiple limited-bandwidth drivers using crossovers, either well-designed passive or active multi-amping. Most designs out there for bass are two-way, which means that the mids have to be covered by a tweeter extending lower than it would like and a woofer extending well up into the cone break-up region. That is never going to give anything like a flat response, a minimum three-way design is arguably essential (most medium-high powered PAs use at least 4-way). For instance, the Markbass and SWR use Le Son tweeters with a recommended crossover frequency of 7-8k and which bottom out at around 5k - way higher than where the 'flat' region of the (very good) B&C and Eminence drivers extend to (~3-4k). Plus the crossovers used are typically naff. The Tecamp combos, for example, despite listing for a grand and up, utilise a single high-pass capacitor - nothing else! And it's the same cap for both the 10" and 12" combos despite the Sica drivers employed giving different mid-range cut-offs, no way is it optimal in both applications. Other manu's such as Eden do at least employ two-way designs but I've not seen any where they use anything other than the cheapest components that'll do the job. Lastly, in terms of drivers, the Eminence Kappalite woofers and Beyma mid-range that I think are used in the Barefaced designs aren't the 'best' drivers out there...but show me a commercial lightweight (ie neo) bass cab that uses better. Edited January 10, 2011 by LawrenceH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='LawrenceH' post='1084544' date='Jan 10 2011, 05:51 PM']I honestly don't understand your problem with me - why are you resorting to ridicule?[/quote] I don't have a problem with you at all. I have more of a problem with any suggestion for cabs getting the same repsonse...and suggestion. Most of which isn't qualified. You do tend to qualify your responses though so I don't accuse you of being in that group. It is more the one line suggestions of use this, or use that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conan Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='JTUK' post='1084633' date='Jan 10 2011, 07:01 PM']I have more of a problem with any suggestion for cabs getting the same repsonse...and suggestion. Most of which isn't qualified.It is more the one line suggestions of use this, or use that.[/quote] Sometimes, to be fair, those type of responses are given by people who are trying to help but maybe lack the technical knowledge of other forum members. If someone has used a particular piece of equipment (or seen/heard it used) in a particular situation and knows it to be suitable for what the OP is asking - then I'm not sure it's strictly necessary to try to justify that suggestion with a load of techno-speak. I for one wouldn't understand it anyway! The original post managed to be both vague and specific at the same time, which makes it difficult to be helpful in a meaningful way. Some of the suggestions made are therefore of a speculative nature to try to draw a bit more information from the OP. I think. It's certainly not worth falling out with people over! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenochrome Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='51m0n' post='1084374' date='Jan 10 2011, 03:44 PM']...You cant have it both ways though, you either want flat or punchy (ie not flat). The OP suggest not flat but punchy....[/quote] Exactly what I thought. A 'flat' response [i]might[/i] sound a bit boomy, depending on the room etc, which is something that wasn't asked for in the OP. Having plenty of headroom seems like a good idea but again 'warm' was asked for which isn't the same as clean. If a sound that doesn't have obvious distortion was meant, then that's probably a good idea for a function band, with plenty of juice to cover transients and any gigs when more volume is required (eg outdoors). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMT3781 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 +1 for the S/H berg cabs at bass direct. Purely because if you don't i will go and buy them, and make a lot of people very cross with me in the process Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Is there a wah of getting a response chart cheaply, from your PC or something, using some live level output from your amp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan670844 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='Adrenochrome' post='1085163' date='Jan 11 2011, 09:10 AM']Exactly what I thought. A 'flat' response [i]might[/i] sound a bit boomy, depending on the room etc, which is something that wasn't asked for in the OP. Having plenty of headroom seems like a good idea but again 'warm' was asked for which isn't the same as clean. If a sound that doesn't have obvious distortion was meant, then that's probably a good idea for a function band, with plenty of juice to cover transients and any gigs when more volume is required (eg outdoors).[/quote] +1 on that you need some method of Q ing out a room i.e. cut bass, cut mids, whatever you need. Maybe he should look a 'making a bass amp' I.e Mic preamp/ DI whatever with a good amount of neutral gain, decent graphic and a decent power amp like a QSC crown etc. But the power amp is going to cost the best side of a grand................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1085471' date='Jan 11 2011, 01:35 PM']Is there a wah of getting a response chart cheaply, from your PC or something, using some live level output from your amp?[/quote] You could use RTA software to generate noise/sweep tones etc that you could play through the amp and re-record after calibrating against your soundcard I/Os. A quick google reveals several programs that claim to be free, I've only ever used Adobe Audition for this type of thing though and for live PA tend to use dedicated hardware. Obviously if you want to get into measuring the cab contribution then you need a calibrated measurement mic and (more difficult) a suitable space to do the tests in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 The problem we all have is that we don't really have a great vocabulary for describing sounds. To me flat means that the output is the same across the frequency range but to another it could mean 'neutral sounding'. I doubt very much whether the output of the guitar is flat in a technical sense of equal output across the frequency range especially as the inductance of the coil kicks in at higher frequencies.with reinforcement from floors walls and ceilings The bottom end won't be flat in a real room either. A truly flat speaker would sound rather boomy in most rooms. The best way to hear what your bass really sounds like 'flat' is to plug it straight into a mixing desk and out to a decent pair of headphones and the next best is to listen to it DI'd. If this is the sound you like then why not go for a couple of lightweight active PA speakers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 [quote name='Phil Starr' post='1085940' date='Jan 11 2011, 07:25 PM']If this is the sound you like then why not go for a couple of lightweight active PA speakers?[/quote] PA speakers tend to not go very low, because for PA purposes you have a sub to cover that when it becomes necessary. Plus your vocalist will assume he can use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonunders Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I have a Mark Bass LMIII and bareface compact. Flippin good combination IMO. and extreemly light weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soliloquy Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 For uncoloured cabs you really won't find anything to beat Acme Sound. Having owned pretty much every cab from Epifani to Trace to Aguilar to Eden to Markbass to EA to Bergantino and Accugroove, I've stuck with the Acme's. They go deeper than any other cab, they're not hyped and overpriced like Bergantino, and they REALLY are very, very uncoloured. They're also superbly well made. Partner it with an EA or Markbass head. I know you said you didn't want Markbass, but the LM2/3 does scope as being very 'flat'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigjohn Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 [quote name='Soliloquy' post='1087025' date='Jan 12 2011, 06:44 PM']For uncoloured cabs you really won't find anything to beat Acme Sound. Having owned pretty much every cab from Epifani to Trace to Aguilar to Eden to Markbass to EA to Bergantino and Accugroove, I've stuck with the Acme's. They go deeper than any other cab, they're not hyped and overpriced like Bergantino, and they REALLY are very, very uncoloured. They're also superbly well made. Partner it with an EA or Markbass head. I know you said you didn't want Markbass, but the LM2/3 does scope as being very 'flat'.[/quote] Yep. I used to have Acmes. I bought them off Alex Clabber. Too neutral for me though. I like a bit of mid hump in my cabs, easier on my amps! Some Low B2s, a decent power amp (probably 500W+ per channel to make up for the inefficiency of the Acmes) is where I'd start if I were the OP. Some sort of compresssor / gate / limiter to cut frequencies that don't work in the room - esp with such full range cabs, then find a suitable pre amp that sounds nice with the bass used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soliloquy Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 A lot of replies here mention Bergs, they're very far from being 'flat', at least to my ears anyway. The Berg IP powered cabs are programmed to sound flat, but they aren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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