Bass Lessons

[Bilbo]

As some will know, I have recently taken up the double bass and the issue of lessons has reared its ugly head. I am a staunch advocate of getting lessons and see the value of a teacher for increasing the efficiency of your learning. Trouble is, its too expensive (£25, £ 30 or even £50 an hour for an expert teacher).

This is not a criticism of the cost of lessons, they compare with other professional 'tradespeople'; its just a reflection of what I see as a class divide in the education of musicians. If you are fortunate enoough to have wealthy parents or to be wealthy yourself, you can get a teacher easily enough. If, however, like me, you can't afford it, what do you do. I can afford a lesson for £30 or so; maybe two a year but I certainly could not justify spending £120 a month on weekly lessons that would define a classical musician or even £30 a month (some months would be ok, others not). One intermittent lesson has value but what could we achieve if it was every week? It feels like music tuition is for the middle classes and not for everyone. This is not a poor me thread, however.

In my jazz research, I have come across a number of US based initiatives to provide free musical education to young players (Jazzmobile is only one of the most famous - top professionals like Jimmy Heath teaching kids to play etc). My socialist values lead me to want to offer free tuition to anyone who can't afford it. I am, however, concerned that, a, I do not take business away from people who are trying to make a living and, b, I do not want to be taken advantage of by people who can afford it but want a freebee (I don't teach students for money, BTW). I have thought about 'leisure learning' through a local college ( a 'music theory for rock musicians' course or 'bass players for beginners etc')but they also charge fees that, IMO, disadvantaged kids could in no way afford (£60 a term).

What do people think? Can anyone see a way to make this happen without compromising anyone, including me? I am seeking serious thoughts on this, guys, and want to know what people think; teachers and students alike.

[endorka]

I'd like to give a fuller answer to this, but am in a bit of a rush, so, with brevity;

1) A problem I see is that there is an unfortunate *tendency* for people not to value things they are given for free. It is not uncommon, for example, for the number of "no shows" amongst free/low paying clients to be greater than those paying the full price. They are also frequently very "high maintainance". This applies across the board, not just to music tuition.

2) I disagree that £25 is too much. Sure, maybe every week for some, but with personal determination it is still possible to learn with one lesson per month. When I studied music at university, I think we had about 18 lessons per year.

Most people I have encountered throughout my life are quite happy to spend £25 or more per week on non-essential items such as alcohol or cigarettes. I would re-phrase the question more or less as this: if someone is not prepared to spend £25 per month to learn an instrument, perhaps a deeper examination of their motivation is in order.

Caveat: I do understand that some peopler are genuinely unable to afford music lessons for their kids. I think this is unfortunate, and support the supply of "free" music lessons in school for those in this position. However, I would definitely draw a distinction between this and people who do have the income, but just choose to spend it on other things.

Jennifer

[Cat Burrito]

I had Sunday lunch with my retired parents today and Dad was telling me about an African School where the kids paid fees. It was 25p a week unless the family couldn't afford it, in which case it was free! A lovely story, I thought.

In terms of the free lessons here in the UK, I wonder if there is an alternative for lower income people. I think free lessons would really put a few professional tutors out and I agree with Endorka about people not always valuing things that are not free.

It's difficult in this current climate (my wife & I have had one of many belt tightening chats just prior to me coming online). I think you would be better off offering discount lessons or pay for 3 get 4 type deals. Or the alternative is present lessons to a different audience like linking in with the local Youth Offending Teams or Inclusion Units in schools, rather than presenting lessons in the traditional sense. I'm just thinking outloud here and certainly don't present such a suggestion as a finished thought.

[jakenewmanbass]

I would posit that most musicians of a sufficient standard to have anything real to offer on a sustainable basis (I mean that in a long term sense, we can all pass on bits and bobs) are going to be leaning towards the pro end of the pool. This means that unless they have a really good gig that they are not particularly well paid in relative terms. Despite being at least as socialist as you Rob, I have to feed my kids and therefore have to charge a figure that will mean that that is a realistic proposition. As it goes I have kept my prices at 25 an hour despite people of similar standing to myself charging up to 40/50 quid partly because teaching is not my main income, so despite having quite a lot of enquiries from basschatters teaching as a weekly scenario is not something I particularly encourage. I get hugely positive feedback from the people I teach (even though that mystifies me slightly) but still I regard myself as a player rather than teacher, even though I enjoy lighting peoples' musical fires immensely.
As for a community based music project and free lessons etc.... great idea.... but the teachers should be [i]valued[/i] as professionals, in this market economy the only way to ensure that is that they are [i]paid[/i] as professionals.
Lets not undervalue music and it's social importance from within our ranks so the only answer is for the society to recognise the same value and reserve some tax pounds for music education.... it's the only way, else it's only the wealthy that will get their hands on the quality tuition.

[jakenewmanbass]

Quick addendum. In tough times I would encourage skill swapping as much as possible and I therefore would be more than happy to offer lessons to people who had something I needed in return.

[ironside1966]

The sad thing is what Jennifer says is true and I have had quite a lot of personal experiences that’s back her findings up, I did the sound for a jazz band as a favour for friend last month every thing went well but at the end of he night not one member of the band said thank you, I just don’t think they grasped that I was giving them the value of a days wage.
But where I disagree with Jennifer is that the some people do appreciate and know the value of such a generous gift, look at scholarships and how the have changed many peoples life’s

[ironside1966]

I think you a catching on to Cameron’s big society, get put on the dole and then do the job that you previously did on a volentery basis AKA if you don’t do it your dole will be stopped.

[endorka]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='1083504' date='Jan 9 2011, 07:47 PM']But where I disagree with Jennifer is that the some people do appreciate and know the value of such a generous gift, look at scholarships and how the have changed many peoples life’s[/quote]

You are of course correct, what I said was a sweeping generalisation that is not always the case.

I've really enjoyed all the replies to this thread.. I love the way most seemed to agree broadly with what I had to say, yet were able to put across their points in a far nicer way :-)

Jennifer

[Bilbo]

Its a tough one, isn't it? I get the 'they spend it on other things' argument but I also know that some of these 'other things' are necessary in different ways (we, as a society, have a complex relationship with smoking and alcohol, for instance). I also wanted to stress that I agree that the fees charged by teachers are generally legit in that £25 - £50 is a lot less than I would expect to pay a mechanic/plumber/solicitor/private tutor of any other subject etc but I also know that many people would try to fix their own car/do their own plumbing/apply got legal aid or just go without and watch their cars/homes etc fall apart slowly. I also agree that weekly lessons are not always necessary, particularly for adult learners. I also like Jake's skill swapping idea (any gardeners want bass lessons? ).

Keep the perspectives/ideas coming

[SMV]

+1 on the skill swapping. I've given bass lessons to a drummer and a double bass player, and now I can play their instruments too So I can recommend that to Bilbo, if you can find a willing Double Bassist that wants some bass guitar lessons...

The only way I've been able to make a decent income from teaching is to work in schools as a peripatetic instructor and get paid by the school.

I've found a lot of people balk when I ask for £25 or even £20 an hour for private tuition - As this irritating 'music should be free' culture grows, is this attitude spreading into the value of music tuition? I would love to teach for free because I love it so much, but gigs are pretty thin at the moment so it's my main income source, and I am very thankful that I can make a living out of doing it - but only because I work in schools. Hmm... doesn't help the adult learners much.

[SMV]

Also, thinking about what Burritobass said:

I'll just add that I get the most work from schools that offer subsidised lessons, and also with a local youth centre that offers significantly subsidised tuition with me - £2.50 for a weekly half hour lesson in a group of 3, which is surprisingly very popular and has been going for about a year now. The centre doesn't offer many slots at this price though!

[tarcher]

I look at the cost of lessons as just being a part of the expense of wanting to be a bit of a decent player at some point.
Buying a nice bass and amp was just the beginning as far as I was concerned.
Also if you spend hundreds on bass eequipment why not spend a bit more on some decent tuition,whats the point of having decent equipment and not be able to use it to your full potential.
Its all about challenging myself and enjoyment and the joy of having a good teacher to guide me.
We both get a buzz out of every improvement I make.
Hope this may make some sense.
By the way I don't do alchohol,drugs or smoke.

[Bilbo]

Me neither and I still can't afford £50 (plus travel) for a lesson

[baboom]

Skill swap is good idea - *if* you can make the pairing, something that using money as an exchange medium lets you skip over. But, hey ho, if anyone round here wants to learn electronics in return for things musical, fire away!

[Dood]

My findings so far about pricing my lessons is that if I do get any reticence over an hourly rate, it's in some part due to the 'customer' not getting actually what goes in to making up that rate. They seem blissfully unaware that like plumbers and electricians, we are (usually) self employed. In a 'normal 9-5' employees get all their sickness covered. Their holiday, perks and taxes mysteriously get worked out for them before what's left gets deposited in their bank accounts. When we break down *our* hourly rate and work out what would go out as taxes, expenses and our holiday and sickness allowances - we don't actually earn that much at £25 per hour.

The tendency to 'be nice' and drop our rates is fine if you have so many students chomping at the bit, but in these times where some are struggling, it's still important to put the correct value on what you do and not under sell - value who you are and what you offer. If you under sell, you're not covering your bills.
Remember, if you put your prices down, it's much harder to put them back up again.

This probably all means diddley-squat if you have no students though and you have to start somewhere!