Bloodaxe Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 There's an interesting (if confusing) [url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=727086"]thread over on TB[/url] revolving around an apparently fake Ritter 7-string sold by Guitar Center (caution, it's 33 pages & rising), which threw up this link: [url="http://www.musicincmag.com/News/2010/101214/101214_martin.html"]http://www.musicincmag.com/News/2010/10121...214_martin.html[/url] Now that's scary. I knew about the 'TradeTang' model (where you can get a job lot of [i]any[/i] design for next to no money), but the Trademark Variant is astounding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Foxen Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 That is a bit balatant, but stuff like this means quality has to speak for itself, rather than letting a brand label speak for it. Which is a win for the discerning consumer, issue being most consumers aren't discerning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris2112 Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Sounds like karma to me! But forged instrument trading is nothing new. Just look at the Music Ground fiasco! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I've been in the same room as a well-known British luthier while he worked on making a very convincing fake late-50s Strat that a music shop owner that he was in cahoots with was intending to sell as genuine. And no, I'm not naming names. Just saying, you don't just get counterfeiters in China. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris2112 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 It sounds like John Turner has really been made a mug of here. The topwood on the "fake" is better than the wood on his bass! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Chris2112' post='1083813' date='Jan 10 2011, 01:50 AM']It sounds like John Turner has really been made a mug of here. The topwood on the "fake" is better than the wood on his bass![/quote] I've read the whole thread... seriously, Jens Ritter needs to give whomever made that bass a job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris2112 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Russ' post='1083814' date='Jan 10 2011, 12:52 AM']I've read the whole thread... seriously, Jens Ritter needs to give whomever made that bass a job. [/quote] Yep, I've just finished reading it. It is quite the convincing fake, certainly from looking at it I'd think it was a real Ritter! And given that it looks better than John Turner's, maybe his is the fake! As has been the case for a while now, players are getting on top of the fact that dodgy instruments are being made left, right and centre. Without naming any names, there is one guitar shop in the UK that was selling Eddie Van Halen "Frankenstrat" style knock offs. At the lower end, they were obvious Chinese Cheapos with nothing on the headstock. The shop owner was willing to get you a "custom order" from his unnamed builder which would be a dead likeness for a Charvel EVH and could even have a serial number matched from Charvel records. If you were prepared to pay top coin he could get you a Frankstrat which would appear as though it had came from the Charvel custom shop, with the paint scheme applied using masking tape to replicate Eddie's original homemade guitar. Like I say, this wasn't Beijing, Seoul or Los Angeles, this was sunny old England! Whoever did these builds must have been good because I'd seen some of the repair work people got through the shop and it was of a very high quality. In the end, I never saw one of these fakes in the flesh and I'm not sure what has happened to the shop or the luthier now, but it still makes you wonder! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Ritter aren't the only ones being faked. I see that Ibanez have a Counterfeit Warning on their homepage... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='icastle' post='1083822' date='Jan 10 2011, 02:23 AM']Ritter aren't the only ones being faked. I see that Ibanez have a Counterfeit Warning on their homepage...[/quote] If you look at a Chinese wholesale goods website like [url="http://www.tradetang.com"]http://www.tradetang.com[/url] , you'll find all sorts of counterfeit instruments. The most popular styles to rip off seem to be Musicmen, Rickys and yep, Ibanezes. Beware though, you'll see a huge amount of stuff on a site like that - gets very tempting to consider starting an imported instruments business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris2112 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='icastle' post='1083822' date='Jan 10 2011, 01:23 AM']Ritter aren't the only ones being faked. I see that Ibanez have a Counterfeit Warning on their homepage...[/quote] Ibanez fakes have been big news for about 5 years now, maybe more. There is a big market for older Ibanez, particularly the "shred boom" era models of the late 80's and early 90's. Things like Steve Vai signature Jem and Universe guitars and the Joe Satriani Signature models with the exotic paintjobs were commanding high prices (they still continue to appreciate too) along with other models from the era. I think it was initially revealed when a Chinese Ebay seller was offloading a number of the paint swirl Universe and Jem models. Now, these are fairly rare anyway and to have such a number was a giveaway. It's really only Ibanezrules.com and the Jem site that get decent numbers of second hand paint swirl models coming through. A couple of people spotted them and it was pretty obvious they were dodgy fakes. However, a few had worked their way around the world and iffy Ibanez guitars were beginning to appear in America. Ibanez were made aware of it and have been warning about dodgy Ibanez guitars ever since. In fact, at one point they had a buyers guide up with the advice of "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is". These things were being made on a large scale, there must have been a factory producing them. I remember seeing a fake Jem7V at a shop in Newcastle. It was very hokey and obviously fake from a mile away (as it's £200 price tag suggested) with some very iffy electronics, a woeful knock off tremolo and some incredibly poor inlay and fretwork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Russ' post='1083830' date='Jan 10 2011, 01:30 AM']If you look at a Chinese wholesale goods website like [url="http://www.tradetang.com"]http://www.tradetang.com[/url] , you'll find all sorts of counterfeit instruments. The most popular styles to rip off seem to be Musicmen, Rickys and yep, Ibanezes. Beware though, you'll see a huge amount of stuff on a site like that - gets very tempting to consider starting an imported instruments business. [/quote] I particularly like the description of a Ric on there:- [i]I am dedicated to bring joy, safe and top products for you. All the products I offer in my store come with fashion style, superior but cheaper price all the time[/i] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris2112 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 The daft thing is, on a relatively simple bass like a Ric or a Stingray (which seem to be the most copied) I doubt there is much to separate them, especially if you can get a fretjob and setup done when you buy them in. I'm not surprised people are making money off this. It's also funny that Musicman and Rickenbacker are the most copied, saying as they are the ones who are so desperate to protect their designs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Chris2112' post='1083831' date='Jan 10 2011, 02:30 AM']Ibanez fakes have been big news for about 5 years now, maybe more. There is a big market for older Ibanez, particularly the "shred boom" era models of the late 80's and early 90's. Things like Steve Vai signature Jem and Universe guitars and the Joe Satriani Signature models with the exotic paintjobs were commanding high prices (they still continue to appreciate too) along with other models from the era. I think it was initially revealed when a Chinese Ebay seller was offloading a number of the paint swirl Universe and Jem models. Now, these are fairly rare anyway and to have such a number was a giveaway. It's really only Ibanezrules.com and the Jem site that get decent numbers of second hand paint swirl models coming through. A couple of people spotted them and it was pretty obvious they were dodgy fakes. However, a few had worked their way around the world and iffy Ibanez guitars were beginning to appear in America. Ibanez were made aware of it and have been warning about dodgy Ibanez guitars ever since. In fact, at one point they had a buyers guide up with the advice of "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is". These things were being made on a large scale, there must have been a factory producing them. I remember seeing a fake Jem7V at a shop in Newcastle. It was very hokey and obviously fake from a mile away (as it's £200 price tag suggested) with some very iffy electronics, a woeful knock off tremolo and some incredibly poor inlay and fretwork.[/quote] There's actually some rather nice looking Jem and Universe ripoffs available from that Tradetang site - here's a nice Jem7V ripoff.... [url="http://www.tradetang.com/for-sale/Free-shipping-new-seven-strings-electric-guitar-for-sale-electric-guitar-/137320-2203578.html"]http://www.tradetang.com/for-sale/Free-shi...20-2203578.html[/url] I'm wondering if there's a market for stuff like John Turner's fake Ritter, for those of us who own custom basses - we could get cheaper versions made to take out and gig with, leaving the valuable original instruments at home! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris2112 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Russ' post='1083840' date='Jan 10 2011, 01:42 AM']There's actually some rather nice looking Jem and Universe ripoffs available from that Tradetang site - here's a nice Jem7V ripoff.... [url="http://www.tradetang.com/for-sale/Free-shipping-new-seven-strings-electric-guitar-for-sale-electric-guitar-/137320-2203578.html"]http://www.tradetang.com/for-sale/Free-shi...20-2203578.html[/url][/quote] This is the sort of thing I had seen, with the cheap, dull looking hardware and so forth. I recall seeing an Ibanez Joe Satriani model with the "Fred" finish which looked particularly poor but this counterfeiting has come a long way if the Ritter thread is anything to go by! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Chris2112' post='1083839' date='Jan 10 2011, 01:41 AM']The daft thing is, on a relatively simple bass like a Ric or a Stingray (which seem to be the most copied) I doubt there is much to separate them, especially if you can get a fretjob and setup done when you buy them in. I'm not surprised people are making money off this. It's also funny that Musicman and Rickenbacker are the most copied, saying as they are the ones who are so desperate to protect their designs![/quote] Not sure how Ric and Musicman can protect their designs in China - I get the distinct impression that any legal papers sent over there just get shredded and used as packaging for more guitars... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomKent Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) My luthier is well known for having the ability to make an exact replica of any guitar you want, down to dust on the inside. Only the original company can tell the difference, and in one case I was told they couldn't see any difference (think this was Fender too). He, however, never sells them for the original price. He does it really cheaply, but I guess some people sell them on as originals aha. Edited January 10, 2011 by TomKent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iconic Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 OLP anybody? [url="http://www.tradetang.com/for-sale/-Special-Sale-Genuine-OLP-M2-TRD-Electric-Bass-6-color-Sunset/114116-2114923.html"]http://www.tradetang.com/for-sale/-Special...16-2114923.html[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomKent Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='iconic' post='1083927' date='Jan 10 2011, 09:13 AM']OLP anybody? [url="http://www.tradetang.com/for-sale/-Special-Sale-Genuine-OLP-M2-TRD-Electric-Bass-6-color-Sunset/114116-2114923.html"]http://www.tradetang.com/for-sale/-Special...16-2114923.html[/url][/quote] Is that site legit in any way shape or form? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iconic Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='TomKent' post='1083932' date='Jan 10 2011, 09:20 AM']Is that site legit in any way shape or form?[/quote] I think so, see, it even says so [b]Special Sale Genuine OLP M2-TRD Electric Bass 6-color - Sunset[/b] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomKent Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='iconic' post='1083935' date='Jan 10 2011, 09:26 AM']I think so, see, it even says so [b]Special Sale Genuine OLP M2-TRD Electric Bass 6-color - Sunset[/b][/quote] Bah. I bought my first iPhone off a.. non.. legit.. site. Couldn't really tell the difference, but the 1G was a bit poop if I'm being honest looks wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrtcat Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='Mr. Foxen' post='1083784' date='Jan 9 2011, 11:47 PM']That is a bit balatant, but stuff like this means quality has to speak for itself, rather than letting a brand label speak for it. Which is a win for the discerning consumer, issue being most consumers aren't discerning.[/quote] +1 IMO there's a few too many big names who's products vary hugely in quality of finish and components from one instrument to the next but command a very high price. I have no objection to paying the right price for quality but if small independents can produce instruments of seemingly equal, if not higher, quality for less and still turn a profit then there's something quite wrong. I think that this type of activity is the kick in the arse some of the big brands need. However I'm sure most will opt to spend their time and money chasing the counterfeiters rather than raising the bar a bit. I have a p-bass that is put together from odds and ends (squire body, unknown neck, fender neck plate, fake fender headstock transfer)) with some sd p'ups which has been dressed up to look like a vintage 70's original and following a thorough setup from a respected luthier it plays and sounds infinitely better than my brother in laws USA vintage 62 and only cost £200 all in. Why therefore do we pay so much for the real deal?? Of course it's because we trust the brand but should we really trust them when they rip us off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevB Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Not a member on TB so rarely even look at the site but this was an interesting thread and I think I read most of it. All the usual posturings of recognised forum types, the 'nudge nudge I'm on the inside' expert types to the die hard 'fighting for justice' vigilante types and even whiffs of conspiracy and big dollops of 'it's us little guys against the big corporate machine' mentality. Fascinating. 45 pages of the stuff and it's still not sorted, it's possible that the true facts might never come out which would be a shame as there are still unanswered questions, the main one being is it really a true fake at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris2112 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='KevB' post='1084267' date='Jan 10 2011, 02:39 PM']Not a member on TB so rarely even look at the site but this was an interesting thread and I think I read most of it. All the usual posturings of recognised forum types, the 'nudge nudge I'm on the inside' expert types to the die hard 'fighting for justice' vigilante types and even whiffs of conspiracy and big dollops of 'it's us little guys against the big corporate machine' mentality. Fascinating. 45 pages of the stuff and it's still not sorted, it's possible that the true facts might never come out which would be a shame as there are still unanswered questions, the main one being is it really a true fake at all?[/quote] Yes, the thread is standard TB fare. The "inside types" remain cryptic, the vigilante martyr types reamin over the top in their "I will fight to the death to see justice done" stance and John Turner looks like a mug because of the whole sorry situation. At the moment, it's all a bit strange because Jens Ritter doesn't seem to have stated either way that the bass is real or fake. For all we know, JT could be holding the fake as the other bass looks better than his if I'm honest! If it's a mistake in the serial numbering of basses I wouldn't be surprised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 [quote name='KevB' post='1084267' date='Jan 10 2011, 03:39 PM']Not a member on TB so rarely even look at the site but this was an interesting thread and I think I read most of it. All the usual posturings of recognised forum types, the 'nudge nudge I'm on the inside' expert types to the die hard 'fighting for justice' vigilante types and even whiffs of conspiracy and big dollops of 'it's us little guys against the big corporate machine' mentality. Fascinating. 45 pages of the stuff and it's still not sorted, it's possible that the true facts might never come out which would be a shame as there are still unanswered questions, the main one being is it really a true fake at all?[/quote] I think they're waiting on the final word from Jens Ritter - he's gone over to NAMM and apparently they haven't been able to get hold of him yet for a proper comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris2112 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Quite frankly, I'm surprised there isn't a bigger market for fake boutique basses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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