dougie Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 [quote name='Ou7shined' post='1120897' date='Feb 9 2011, 03:42 AM']I'm trying to cope with a bereavement here so would rather not be involved in this right now but seeing as I won't get any sleep tonight.... We seem to have got off on the wrong foot here. Would you like to point out where I've tried to change anyone's opinion please? You have clearly misunderstood my intentions... which I suppose could account for your "bollox" to me comment. My purpose for posting in the thread is merely to offer some balance to wary modders that may be passing through who could be mislead by opinion outweighing fact. I don't think I need the ethos of customising explained to me but thanks for your take on it. You say that the mod doesn't matter as long as the modder is happy. Ok but I personally believe that a mod has more merit if it actually changes something... and not in some placebo effect way. A point I'd like to make is that the word "upgrade" was used when describing swapping out the loom. Upgrade implies improvement. Well if someone can hear the difference between one piece of wire or pot to another then I guess that it's an upgrade. Sadly I can't make such a claim as I only have human ears. A loom swap may include a different value capacitor - changing this single component (which retails for a few pence and takes about 30 seconds to desolder the old one and put the new one in) will account for a slight change in tonal characteristics but it would be a mighty big step to suggest that the aural difference would be akin to changing the pickups (unless of course you were changing the pickups for pretty much identical ones..... or overstating a product on someone's behalf) and so would be pointless swapping out the whole loom for. I am not going to comment on specific harness as they are not the subject of this thread. I do think that ready made looms are fantastic for saving 10 minutes (maybe 5 minutes in the case of a P bass ) knocking up your own one when doing a project from scratch. But if modding is your thing then why not actually do it yourself... and the P circuit is probably the best place to start. For my latest project I designed and built [url="http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d67/ou7shined/Lofa%20bass/wiring-diagram.jpg"]this passive circuit[/url]. Barring one very specialist component the entire loom cost maybe a tenner to put together using the very best (subjective point) components. Ok it took a while to do but it is a very complicated circuit. P circuits are (short of wiring a pup directly to the jack) the simplest circuit known to bass players and I'm fully on the side of encouraging modders to build their own. After all where's the satisfaction in bolting off the shelf gear into your bass and calling it your own mod?[/quote] Firstly sorry to hear of your loss,never easy,secondly the"bollox"certainly isnt aimed at you,maybe came across wrong but i meant in general,in any area of modding,as earlier examples ie pc,bike,car etc somethimes people havnt got the resources for one off parts etc and best they can do is get of the shelf items,in other area i do modding and this often has me using lathes,welder etc making my own stuff,as far as bass or any guitar based stuff is concerned i admit i dont know much,wiring i can do,painting i do as we have a high tech spray shop at work and have turned a couple of nice bass bodies out,i take my hat off to you with the circuitry as last total rewire i done was a schecter that the guts had been torn out and i had a box with 4 pots,1 switch and a hacked up s/dunc bit of circuit board,got pissed off trying and it ended up a 2 vol and 1 tone passive setup with the rest redundant....in saying that im tempted to have another shot at it cos i hate giving up...i think yer m8 here isnt so much taking the huff but more mucking around saying hes not gonna be wound up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul h Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Ou7shined' post='1120898' date='Feb 9 2011, 03:46 AM']I still have no idea why you are being like this. [/quote] Rather ironically I just typed a long reply and accidentally deleted it! I am sorry to hear of your bereavement and you have my sympathy. Always tough times. Back to the matter in hand. First off, joining a conversation and commenting on someone else's opinion using the phrase "Meanwhile, back in the real world." Is just plain rude. Can you give me one real life example where you would get away with talking to someone you barely know like that? I know we have both been on this forum forever but we have hardly interacted in any way at all until you decided to imply that my opinions were a fantasy based upon someone else's thoughts. EDITED Next look at what you insist are the facts, that swapping a wiring loom has no positive effect. So to do that, let's look at some other facts.... In this thread the information I have given is as follows: I bought a Jim Deacon bass, I decided to upgrade the wiring loom, I noticed a difference and I will now considered doing the same mod to other cheap basses I have or might buy. Now let's look at your comments... You feel that the word upgrade does not apply here. Well, replacing low quality components with higher quality components is the very definition of upgrade. It is quite simply what the word means. Whether the the original components work or not is irrelevant. At the very least you add longevity and reliability by improving component quality. The reason you feel the word doesn't apply is that you don't see what benefit a new harness will have. Did you hear the original one? Have you heard the new one? You contradict your self later by mentioning the capacitor. Do you know what was used on the original harness? Do you know what rating the new one is? EDITED So the original harness has low quality components and bad soldering. Even I can see that. Occasionally the jack socket cut out. The pots were a bit crackly and didn't turn very smoothly and switch cleaner didn't help. The pots actual operation was not very cool with all the action happening over the last quarter turn. And the bass had a lower output that I would expect. The new harness has great big chunky components held together with very neat, nice shiny solder. The jack socket is rock solid and doesn't cut out. The pots are really smooth and affect the sound through their full range of movement. The output is significantly improved. I perceive a fuller bottom end. I concede this may be just my perception. Or it could be connected to the improved output and might be something to do with capacitor? I don't really know. EDITED So now, tell me again that the quality of the loom has no affect on performance. NOTE: I have edited the bits where I got a bit angry. I don't like to be confrontational and try to avoid it. Edited February 9, 2011 by paul h Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 We are just talking about three pots, a jack socket and a few scraps of wire here right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raggy Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 [quote name='icastle' post='1121146' date='Feb 9 2011, 11:25 AM']We are just talking about three pots[/quote] On a P Bass? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 [quote name='Raggy' post='1121181' date='Feb 9 2011, 11:43 AM']On a P Bass? [/quote] I have never been known for my mathematical dexterity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neepheid Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 (edited) [quote name='paul h' post='1120137' date='Feb 8 2011, 02:38 PM']I'm a total convert. After fitting one of KiOgon's harnesses in my Jim Deacon [b]I think it's mod right up there with changing pickups[/b]. In fact I am thinking of going for a jazz style one for my Retrovibe.[/quote] I disagree with the section highlighted. Apart from the fact that there is no frame of reference with which to properly quantify the perceived improvement, in my humble opinion there is no way that any loom mod will have as as much impact as changing the pickup(s), assuming we're talking about sound quality and not functionality here. I made that assumption because the statement doesn't make it clear. In the case of non-functional looms and non-functional pickups then yes, they are of equal importance. Either way, I'll take your opinion as just that, an opinion and then disregard it because as stated above, I disagree with it and if I may be so bold I think it sounds like rabid, unsubstantiated fanboy talk. I'm not calling you a rabid fanboy, by the way. Edited February 9, 2011 by neepheid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul h Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 [quote name='neepheid' post='1121254' date='Feb 9 2011, 12:35 PM']I disagree with the section highlighted. Apart from the fact that there is no frame of reference with which to properly quantify the perceived improvement, in my humble opinion there is no way that any loom mod will have as as much impact as changing the pickup(s), assuming we're talking about sound quality and not functionality here. I made that assumption because the statement doesn't make it clear. In the case of non-functional looms and non-functional pickups then yes, they are of equal importance. Either way, I'll take your opinion as just that, an opinion and then disregard it because as stated above, I disagree with it and if I may be so bold I think it sounds like rabid, unsubstantiated fanboy talk. I'm not calling you a rabid fanboy, by the way.[/quote] For a start you admit your making assumptions which makes the rest of your argument invalid. Also I said in my opinion changing the loom is "up there" with changing the pickups. You are the one that has inferred that I am only talking about tone. If I had said "Changing the loom makes just as much tonal difference as changing the pickups." then maybe you would be right. I didn't. I am talking about worthwhile mods to a cheap bass. However it does make a noticeable difference. And lastly, seeing as getting a sound from a vibrating string to come out of an amplifier relies rather heavily on the bits in between denying that better quality wiring from different components won't make an audible difference seems a little strange. I had a P bass years ago with a badly installed EMG that distorted all the time. I had it reinstalled and it fixed the problem. Funny that. How a dry solder joint affected the tone. And people are forever banging on about orange drop capacitors, are they all mistaken too? Oh, and thanks for the unsubstantiated rabid fanboy comment. I found it to be a useful and informative addition to the argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metalmoore Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Hmmm, seems i should have searched the forum abit more to find out who done this. Never meant to start all of this... Sorry? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul h Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 [quote name='Metalmoore' post='1121319' date='Feb 9 2011, 01:11 PM']Hmmm, seems i should have searched the forum abit more to find out who done this. Never meant to start all of this... Sorry?[/quote] Don't apologise, it's nothing you have done. It's a Basschat phenomenon where a few trolls have decided to have a pop for no reason. In this one they have decided that electricity doesn't exist. In another thread they will deny wood has any effect. It's sad really but it does go on here a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawrenceH Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Changing pot values (eg 250k to 1meg) has a potential effect on tone, and obviously changing log to linear will alter how volume/tone changes across the range of the pot in question. Cap value also. Before getting stuck in to the argument about whether it's going to make a difference or not, you need to know what is being swapped for what! E.g. I've had basses where tone controls did nothing, were all or nothing, or had a smooth effect right across their range. Getting this last one is a worthwhile upgrade. Perhaps the cheap basses in question have had pots that were way out or poorly chosen cap values, etc. The wiring itself, though, it's such a short distance and signal levels are so low that changing this is hardly going to have any effect at all, I'd be amazed if anyone could hear it unless the wire that was being replaced was practically microscopic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougie Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 (edited) [quote name='LawrenceH' post='1121553' date='Feb 9 2011, 04:46 PM']Changing pot values (eg 250k to 1meg) has a potential effect on tone, and obviously changing log to linear will alter how volume/tone changes across the range of the pot in question. Cap value also. Before getting stuck in to the argument about whether it's going to make a difference or not, you need to know what is being swapped for what! E.g. I've had basses where tone controls did nothing, were all or nothing, or had a smooth effect right across their range. Getting this last one is a worthwhile upgrade. Perhaps the cheap basses in question have had pots that were way out or poorly chosen cap values, etc. The wiring itself, though, it's such a short distance and signal levels are so low that changing this is hardly going to have any effect at all, I'd be amazed if anyone could hear it unless the wire that was being replaced was practically microscopic.[/quote] Yea once again totally agree,but forgetting improvement in sound quality,if you buy a cheap item of any description and can improve it with a better quality item,anything......even a better quality set of screws holding the scratch plate on or better less flimsy output jack etc its still improving it surely?maybe only my opinion but anything that improves it can only be a plus,honestly you would piss yourself laughing if you seen my"other"bass the Marlin P bass,its been described from a 1979 Ford Capri with furry dice to a tarts handbag,the strings cost 50% of the price the missus payed for the bass that fateful Xmas ,lets not forget that our passion for bass ranges from guys like me(a hobby only,never gigged)to the other end of th scale playing for a profession but one thing we all have in common is having fun,seriously no reason here for guys falling out over a debate about a lump of wiring.....peace. Edited February 9, 2011 by dougie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Thank you for taking the time to reply. [quote name='paul h' post='1121061' date='Feb 9 2011, 10:21 AM']Rather ironically I just typed a long reply and accidentally deleted it! I am sorry to hear of your bereavement and you have my sympathy. Always tough times. Back to the matter in hand. First off, joining a conversation and commenting on someone else's opinion using the phrase "Meanwhile, back in the real world." Is just plain rude. Can you give me one real life example where you would get away with talking to someone you barely know like that? I know we have both been on this forum forever but we have hardly interacted in any way at all until you decided to imply that my opinions were a fantasy based upon someone else's thoughts.[/quote] I wholeheartedly apologise for my comment and the light in which it has been taken. But I stand by MY intent which was far less sardonic than you thought. If you knew me better than you'd know I am practically incapable of being intentionally rude (it's just not in my nature). This is possibly a good example of where a smiley may have saved the day. [quote name='paul h' post='1121061' date='Feb 9 2011, 10:21 AM']Next look at what you insist are the facts, that swapping a wiring loom has no positive effect. So to do that, let's look at some other facts.... In this thread the information I have given is as follows: I bought a Jim Deacon bass, I decided to upgrade the wiring loom, I noticed a difference and I will now considered doing the same mod to other cheap basses I have or might buy. Now let's look at your comments... You feel that the word upgrade does not apply here. Well, replacing low quality components with higher quality components is the very definition of upgrade. It is quite simply what the word means. Whether the the original components work or not is irrelevant. At the very least you add longevity and reliability by improving component quality. The reason you feel the word doesn't apply is that you don't see what benefit a new harness will have. Did you hear the original one? Have you heard the new one?[/quote] There's absolutely nothing wrong in fixing something that is broke and I covered that earlier. It's probably best not to presume what I can and can't see regarding a P bass circuit. But as I stated earlier I have never been able the "hear" one. [quote name='paul h' post='1121061' date='Feb 9 2011, 10:21 AM']You contradict your self later by mentioning the capacitor. Do you know what was used on the original harness? Do you know what rating the new one is?[/quote] Where is the contradiction? A capacitor does not a loom make. A capacitor is only a component of a loom - and the only part of the equation that can change tonal characteristics. Notice I said "characterisitcs" and not the tone itself. Also I believe I only said it "may" include a different value capacitor then gave reasons why (in your defence) it might make a difference. I would not presume to tell you what you did and did not hear. [quote name='paul h' post='1121061' date='Feb 9 2011, 10:21 AM']So the original harness has low quality components and bad soldering. Even I can see that. Occasionally the jack socket cut out. The pots were a bit crackly and didn't turn very smoothly and switch cleaner didn't help. The pots actual operation was not very cool with all the action happening over the last quarter turn. And the bass had a lower output that I would expect.[/quote] If it's broke fix it. [quote name='paul h' post='1121061' date='Feb 9 2011, 10:21 AM']The new harness has great big chunky components held together with very neat, nice shiny solder. The jack socket is rock solid and doesn't cut out. The pots are really smooth and affect the sound through their full range of movement. The output is significantly improved. [b]I perceive a fuller bottom end I concede this may be just my perception..[/b] Or it could be connected to the improved output and might be something to do with capacitor? I don't really know.[/quote] I rest my case. Oh and I'd be interested on you thoughts how a passive circuit can boost output. (it's a wee speciality of mine) [quote name='paul h' post='1121061' date='Feb 9 2011, 10:21 AM']So now, tell me again that the quality of the loom has no affect on performance. ...[/quote] I do not believe it would change anything if it did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 [quote name='Metalmoore' post='1121319' date='Feb 9 2011, 01:11 PM']Hmmm, seems i should have searched the forum abit more to find out who done this. Never meant to start all of this... Sorry?[/quote] Dude this was absolutely nothing to do with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 [quote name='paul h' post='1121333' date='Feb 9 2011, 01:23 PM']Don't apologise, it's nothing you have done. It's a Basschat phenomenon where a few trolls have decided to have a pop for no reason. In this one they have decided that electricity doesn't exist. In another thread they will deny wood has any effect. It's sad really but it does go on here a lot.[/quote] Seriously? I'm a troll. What does go on here a lot which is even sadder is that opinion gets confused for fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 [quote name='LawrenceH' post='1121553' date='Feb 9 2011, 04:46 PM']Changing pot values (eg 250k to 1meg) has a potential effect on tone, and obviously changing log to linear will alter how volume/tone changes across the range of the pot in question. Cap value also. Before getting stuck in to the argument about whether it's going to make a difference or not, you need to know what is being swapped for what! E.g. I've had basses where tone controls did nothing, were all or nothing, or had a smooth effect right across their range. Getting this last one is a worthwhile upgrade. Perhaps the cheap basses in question have had pots that were way out or poorly chosen cap values, etc. The wiring itself, though, it's such a short distance and signal levels are so low that changing this is hardly going to have any effect at all, I'd be amazed if anyone could hear it unless the wire that was being replaced was practically microscopic.[/quote] Word up. Keep up the trolling with your facts and good science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul h Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 Sorry but this is just laughable so I think we will leave it there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 [quote name='dougie' post='1121575' date='Feb 9 2011, 05:08 PM']Yea once again totally agree,[b]but forgetting improvement in sound quality[/b]......[/quote] [quote name='dougie' post='1121575' date='Feb 9 2011, 05:08 PM'].... one thing we all have in common is having fun,seriously no reason here for guys falling out over a debate about a lump of wiring.....peace.[/quote] Amen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 [quote name='paul h' post='1121333' date='Feb 9 2011, 01:23 PM']Don't apologise, it's nothing you have done. It's a Basschat phenomenon where a few trolls have decided to have a pop for no reason. In this one they have decided that electricity doesn't exist. In another thread they will deny wood has any effect. It's sad really but it does go on here a lot.[/quote] One of the big strengths of BassChat is that people from diverse musical backgrounds, experience and interests can come here and talk openly and freely about various musical subjects. So, lots of different opinions from lots of different people with lots of different takes on the subject under discussion. Are you saying that anyone who has an opinion that is different to yours is a troll? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul h Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 [quote name='icastle' post='1121692' date='Feb 9 2011, 06:38 PM']One of the big strengths of BassChat is that people from diverse musical backgrounds, experience and interests can come here and talk openly and freely about various musical subjects. So, lots of different opinions from lots of different people with lots of different takes on the subject under discussion. Are you saying that anyone who has an opinion that is different to yours is a troll? [/quote] Nope. I'm saying people who use phrases like this are... "Meanwhile, back in the real world." "Unsubstantiated rabid fanboy." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul h Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 [quote name='Ou7shined' post='1121620' date='Feb 9 2011, 05:38 PM']Seriously? I'm a troll. What does go on here a lot which is even sadder is that opinion gets confused for fact.[/quote] Apart from your opinions...which apparently are fact? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 [quote name='paul h' post='1121716' date='Feb 9 2011, 06:53 PM']Nope. I'm saying people who use phrases like this are... "Meanwhile, back in the real world." "Unsubstantiated rabid fanboy."[/quote] [i]"Meanwhile, back in the real world." [/i] - he missed the smiley off the end, he stated that quite a bit back. [i]"Unsubstantiated rabid fanboy." [/i] - from a totally different poster to the first comment you took offense to. The very next sentence was [b]"I'm not calling you a rabid fanboy, by the way". [/b] IMHO you are taking offense where none was intended mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul h Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 [quote name='icastle' post='1121738' date='Feb 9 2011, 07:06 PM'][i]"Meanwhile, back in the real world." [/i] - he missed the smiley off the end, he stated that quite a bit back. [i]"Unsubstantiated rabid fanboy." [/i] - from a totally different poster to the first comment you took offense to. The very next sentence was [b]"I'm not calling you a rabid fanboy, by the way". [/b] IMHO you are taking offense where none was intended mate.[/quote] Oh that's right. He apologised about the smiley [i]after[/i] I made the trolling comment. I'm sorry my lack of time machine is distressing you. No he didn't say I was a rabid fanboy. He said I sound like one. That's ok then. That's not an insult is it? Sounding like rabid fanboy is positively a compliment. To be honest you sound like a complete tool. I am not saying you are one. You just sound like one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul h Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 That last bit was to make a point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 [quote name='paul h' post='1121747' date='Feb 9 2011, 07:13 PM']Oh that's right. He apologised about the smiley [i]after[/i] I made the trolling comment. I'm sorry my lack of time machine is distressing you. No he didn't say I was a rabid fanboy. He said I sound like one. That's ok then. That's not an insult is it? Sounding like rabid fanboy is positively a compliment. To be honest you sound like a complete tool. I am not saying you are one. You just sound like one. [/quote] Suit yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul h Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 [quote name='icastle' post='1121759' date='Feb 9 2011, 07:19 PM']Suit yourself.[/quote] I only said exactly what the other fella did that apparently wasn't cause for offence. Surely you're not offended by it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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