bass line question

[Blademan_98]

Hi
Having read the thread about nuggets of wisdom and the subsequent discussion on Major thirds, I have a question.

The only walking base lines I know go R, 3rd, 5th, 6th, b7th etc.

Using the third over a major chord. (Major chords being made up of R, 3rd, 5th)

I then read in a self help book that if you omit the third / flat third you can use a pattern in either major or minor key.

All makes sense........

My question is, how does a walking bass line go without the third?

Sorry if this is a silly question but I am still learning!

Thanks
Blademan

[ras52]

[quote name='Blademan_98' post='1086777' date='Jan 12 2011, 03:07 PM']My question is, how does a walking bass line go without the third?[/quote]
It hops.

[Blademan_98]

[quote name='ras52' post='1086798' date='Jan 12 2011, 03:31 PM']It hops. [/quote]

My thoughts exactly

[Doddy]

The thing to remember is that the third is the defining note as to whether the chord is major
or minor,so in a simple walking line like that it is essential to outline the changes-especially if
their is no other chordal instrument playing,such as under a solo.

This is where understanding arpeggios and chord tones is important rather than learning a pattern
that may work over a bunch of different changes.

[Blademan_98]

Thanks for that.

I think the difference between a musician and me is that I may be able to learn to play a tune but I don't think I will ever really understand it

[essexbasscat]

[quote name='Doddy' post='1086868' date='Jan 12 2011, 04:21 PM']The thing to remember is that the third is the defining note as to whether the chord is major
or minor,so in a simple walking line like that it is essential to outline the changes-especially if
their is no other chordal instrument playing,such as under a solo.

This is where understanding arpeggios and chord tones is important rather than learning a pattern
that may work over a bunch of different changes.[/quote]


A nice explanation

[Bilbo]

The question itself indicates a conceptual misunderstanding on what defeines a walking bass line.

In common parlance, a walking bass line is essentially straight crotchets that move around the chord changes of a tune. Whilst there is plenty of room for ornamentation, if it strays too far from straight crotchets, it ceases to be a walking line and becomes something else (whcih can be equally beautiful but probably less 'grounded').

Walking lines can include pretty much any note if it is arrived at and passed through in a logical way although there are some common practices that are less extreme than others. The random use of notes in a scale will not work well as it would be like a sentence that has no beginning middle or end. It not would work just (listen to Moondance for an example of this - random notes with no internal logic). As Doddy says, the use if the third defines the chord type although the absence of that third can create a lovely open feel harmonically (Coltrane did this in several of his compositions - using sus4 chords instead of majors). The line R, 3rd, 5th, 6th, b7th mentioned by Blademan is a cliched rock and roll bass line and, although it is perfectly correct, it would be considered uninspired in a jazz tune and generally avoided.

In order to work walking bass lines credibly, you really do need to understand harmony as regurgitating cliches would be transparent to anyone who knows what they are talking about and would undermine the overarching ensemble sound. Playing a modal piece will allow a player to stay with one scale for long periods (which can be deeply challenging in its own right) but most be-bop or standards walking lines require the player to interpret the chord sequences as a series of key changes that require changes of scales at leaset every few bars but sometimes as many as 4 times a bar.

Walking bass lines - a moment to learn and a lifetime to master.

For those who are interested, I have posted the dots for several straight walking lines on here. Housed From Edward by Milt Hinton, Hesitation by Ron Carter, Joy SPring by John Patitucci and Play The Blues and Go by Ben Wolfe. I receommend the Milt Hinton chart for first time walkers.

[lowdown]

[quote name='Blademan_98' post='1086777' date='Jan 12 2011, 03:07 PM']I then read in a self help book that if you omit the third / flat third you can use a pattern in either major or minor key.[/quote]

It can/does work outside of Rock & Roll.
But take on board what Bilbo and Doddy said.





Garry

[xilddx]

[quote name='Blademan_98' post='1086777' date='Jan 12 2011, 03:07 PM']Hi
Having read the thread about nuggets of wisdom and the subsequent discussion on Major thirds, I have a question.

The only walking base lines I know go R, 3rd, 5th, 6th, b7th etc.

Using the third over a major chord. (Major chords being made up of R, 3rd, 5th)

[b]I then read in a self help book that if you omit the third / flat third you can use a pattern in either major or minor key.[/b]

All makes sense........

My question is, how does a walking bass line go without the third?

Sorry if this is a silly question but I am still learning!

Thanks
Blademan[/quote]
You could just play the tonic and octave and it would be usable in either major or minor too, it would sound dull as sh*te though, reduced to disco octave bass. What book is that in? sounds a bit crap to me. Why limit the music to a soulless mathematical getting away with it strategy?

Walking basslines are a true test of your theory and spot compositional and listening skills, your musicality and intuition. They scare the hell out of me because I don't know what I'm doing, but I enjoy doing it Magic can happen by accident too. Because I am a rank amateur at walking, I approach them fairly chromatically, I have a few target notes in my head for each chord, and I approach those target notes as interestingly as possible bearing in mind the very limited thinking time. I play one or two stinkers, but the flip side is that I get some thrills too. God knows what Bilbo will say to this.

[Bilbo]

If you work on the principle that there are 12 notes available and 7 in most scales, you have a better than 50/50 chance of hitting a 'right' note even by accident. Silddx's ear probably improves that to an 80% chance of not being technically 'wrong' but, I have to say, having been doing this for 30 years, it will eventually feel like a shallow victory. Of course good things can happen by accident; monkeys, typewriters and Shakespeare come to mind. But, if you want to do this right, you need to know your intentions and how YOUR lines relate to the rest of the ensemble. If you are plonking around randomly, it will only ever be 'nearly but not quite'.

[Blademan_98]

I think I need to get some lessons from a real person!

The book in question was Bass for Dummies!

I will post the question of bass tuition in the relevant place and see if anyone around Buckinghamshire does lessons.

All I want to be able to do is play something interesting at my local jam without it being Root / 5th plodding!

When I try some twiddling around in a key it just sounds like a guitarist trying to play bass (which is what I am).

Thanks for all your replies

[xilddx]

[quote name='Blademan_98' post='1090004' date='Jan 14 2011, 11:37 PM']I think I need to get some lessons from a real person!

[b]The book in question was Bass for Dummies![/b]

I will post the question of bass tuition in the relevant place and see if anyone around Buckinghamshire does lessons.

All I want to be able to do is play something interesting at my local jam without it being Root / 5th plodding!

When I try some twiddling around in a key it just sounds like a guitarist trying to play bass (which is what I am).

Thanks for all your replies [/quote]
I have it, it is dire.

Try the Bass Builders series of books, There is one called Building Walking Bass Lines IIRC. The two Bass Builders books I have are superb, a lot of thought has gone into the teaching method. I would suggest perhaps going through the book then getting a few lessons as you will get much more value from those lessons as your questions will be much more focused on any problems you are having, rather than "Where the hell do I start?".

[xilddx]

[quote name='Bilbo' post='1089804' date='Jan 14 2011, 08:21 PM']If you work on the principle that there are 12 notes available and 7 in most scales, you have a better than 50/50 chance of hitting a 'right' note even by accident. Silddx's ear probably improves that to an 80% chance of not being technically 'wrong' but, I have to say, having been doing this for 30 years, it will eventually feel like a shallow victory. Of course good things can happen by accident; monkeys, typewriters and Shakespeare come to mind. But, if you want to do this right, you need to know your intentions and how YOUR lines relate to the rest of the ensemble. If you are plonking around randomly, it will only ever be 'nearly but not quite'.[/quote]
I agree it's a shallow victory, but it's still exciting. Then again, I play pop and dance music, so I suppose technically everything I do is a shallow victory compared to Jazz and Classical. BUT, and it's a big BUT, if I and the band, and the audience, find it exciting, the victory is real to me.

[SteveK]

And once you've got a basic handle on chord tones and diatonic scales and modes, the next step ( ) would be to incorporate chromaticism into your walking bass lines. Chromatic approach notes can really make a bass line flow and swing, and opens up near endless possibilities.

[xilddx]

[quote name='SteveK' post='1090579' date='Jan 15 2011, 04:11 PM']And once you've got a basic handle on chord tones and diatonic scales and modes, the next step ( ) would be to incorporate chromaticism into your walking bass lines. Chromatic approach notes can really make a bass line flow and swing, and opens up near endless possibilities.[/quote]
Steve's totally right IMO. If you can get to a point where you can understand, and more importantly HEAR, the basic scales and the chords built on them you are well on the way. Then you'll want to understand chromatic approach notes, it will be a great step to you truly expressing yourself.

Really, it's all about educating your ears and deciding what pleases you and what doesn't. The better educated your ears are, the more likely you are to make musical choices that excite you and the people you're playing with. Listen to loads of decent Jazz with walking bass and you should soon start to picture the tension and release in your mind.

[Blademan_98]

Thanks once again for all this info.

You soon start to realise, no matter what you know or think you know, there is so much to learn.

I have read a few threads about various Jazz artists to listen to.

I have also put a tutor wanted post in that section.

Cheers
Brian

[xilddx]

[quote name='Blademan_98' post='1090619' date='Jan 15 2011, 04:47 PM']Thanks once again for all this info.

You soon start to realise, no matter what you know or think you know, there is so much to learn.

I have read a few threads about various Jazz artists to listen to.

I have also put a tutor wanted post in that section.

Cheers
Brian[/quote]
That's the beauty of stuff like music. The more you learn the more you find there is to learn. It can get overwhelming and make you feel like a know-nothing at times.