Ernie Ball Musicman Gamechanger now a reality

[jimmyb625]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1094878' date='Jan 19 2011, 10:27 AM']Everyone in those videos has. Your statement is a bit confusing as it has a ? on the end.

Why do so many musicians think businessmen would never do things to them that all the other businessmen do?[/quote]

Yeah, I just wanted to make sure I'd understood what you'd said.

Is that why the same people said the same thing at NAMM?

I might have mis-interpreted you here, but to my mind, it sounds like you are saying that the opinions of all of these artists can be bought.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='jimmyb625' post='1094862' date='Jan 19 2011, 02:10 AM']Series 1&2, series 2&1, parallel, coil 1, coil 2 with combinations of each coil forward and reverse phase.[/quote]
Some of those are imaginary Unless you can hear which way electricity flows through a coil. The first 2 are like saying 3+2 is different than 2+3. That's not to say that some can't hear it

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='jimmyb625' post='1094888' date='Jan 19 2011, 02:32 AM']Is that why the same people said the same thing at NAMM?

I might have mis-interpreted you here, but to my mind, it sounds like you are saying that the opinions of all of these artists can be bought.[/quote]
I've been to NAMM from 1984 to 2006, yes, they can all be bought. Surprisingly cheap too. My first job at NAMM was telling people how cool some strings were. Never actually tried any though. You don't actually buy their opinions, you just get them to say stuff that sells product.

Wooten sells magic cables. Can't sell out any more than that. And I'm happy he makes his music pay.

[jimmyb625]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1094891' date='Jan 19 2011, 10:33 AM']Some of those are imaginary Unless you can hear which way electricity flows through a coil. The first 2 are like saying 3+2 is different than 2+3. That's not to say that some can't hear it [/quote]

Yes, some people have said that they can tell a difference, you saw that in the video.

[Vibrating G String]

Really, is there anything that some expert salesman can't hear?

[Marlat]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1095044' date='Jan 19 2011, 12:42 PM']Really, is there anything that some expert salesman can't hear?[/quote]

Their integrity flying out the window?

Edited January 19, 2011 by Mark Latimour

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1094742' date='Jan 19 2011, 03:50 AM']For the history buffs, Vigier introduced the Nautilus System in 1982 which was a programmable micro computer controlled memory system for the settings.[/quote]
A slimmed-down version of which continued in the Arpege until the introduction of the Series IV instruments, IIRC.

Gamechanger? If it changes it TOO much, it won't be bass playing anymore. And if it isn't bass playing, I doubt I'll be interested.
Thanks, but no thanks.

[LawrenceH]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1094895' date='Jan 19 2011, 10:42 AM']Wooten sells magic cables. Can't sell out any more than that. And I'm happy he makes his music pay.[/quote]

A very fair point - the kind of product that needs endorsements like no other because there's nothing concrete that they can actually claim.

I've also been a bit puzzled by the claim about the series order affecting the sound, I can't see how it would since all the electrical values would just be additive in the total circuit, maybe I've missed something a bit more subtle to do with buffers in the circuitry for each coil...but on the face of it this doesn't make sense.

[jimmyb625]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1095044' date='Jan 19 2011, 12:42 PM']Really, is there anything that some expert salesman can't hear?[/quote]

Well, it wasn't a salesman, it was one of those musicians with no integrity...

The good thing though, is that with the GC you can program two presets, eg 1&2 in preset position 1 and then 2&1 in preset 2. It should be a pretty straightforward test to measure the signal produced at each preset position.

I've no idea whether there will be a difference or not, but I'd like to see the results.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='LawrenceH' post='1095533' date='Jan 19 2011, 11:27 AM']A very fair point - the kind of product that needs endorsements like no other because there's nothing concrete that they can actually claim.

I've also been a bit puzzled by the claim about the series order affecting the sound, I can't see how it would since all the electrical values would just be additive in the total circuit, maybe I've missed something a bit more subtle to do with buffers in the circuitry for each coil...but on the face of it this doesn't make sense.[/quote]
It doesn't make sense because it's total bull. Once you have a fanboy that invested in your company you can sell them anything. And they will. And like all the great EBMM "innovations" you'll be able to get this one off eBay in 4 months accompanied by stories like "wife says it's gotta go".

This series order tone change can be sold like so much other crap. Just claim the cool kids can hear it, the wannabes will always follow. And I say that as someone who makes up these lies to sell things. One great thing about selling people BS is once they accept it very few will ever change their minds no matter how well it's proven BS. The power of the ego is immensely profitable.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='jimmyb625' post='1095679' date='Jan 19 2011, 01:16 PM']Well, it wasn't a salesman, it was one of those musicians with no integrity...

The good thing though, is that with the GC you can program two presets, eg 1&2 in preset position 1 and then 2&1 in preset 2. It should be a pretty straightforward test to measure the signal produced at each preset position.

I've no idea whether there will be a difference or not, but I'd like to see the results.[/quote]
No need, it's already covered by basic science. What's the difference in 3+2 or 2+3? Hint: the difference is subtle but 3+2 gives a more solid 5 as it's building on a larger foundation and the 3 can support the 2 much better than the other way around leading to a more musical and round 5.

More complex science has also shown that anyone who believes there will be a difference will hear it when given the visual cue. It's similar to the counting horses in a way.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='jimmyb625' post='1095679' date='Jan 19 2011, 01:16 PM']Well, it wasn't a salesman, it was one of those musicians with no integrity...[/quote]
As opposed to those with?

This forum is filled with pages of people claiming how lame guitards and drummers are, they don't become Mother Theresa as soon as you like their playing. Or I should say shouldn't, as they often do.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1095855' date='Jan 20 2011, 12:31 AM']This series order tone change can be sold like so much other crap. Just claim the cool kids can hear it, the wannabes will always follow. And I say that as someone who makes up these lies to sell things. One great thing about selling people BS is once they accept it very few will ever change their minds no matter how well it's proven BS. The power of the ego is immensely profitable.[/quote]

Like Alleva headstocks releaving dead spots! I still don't buy it but maybe if I owned one I would "hear it" ?

[dlloyd]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1095864' date='Jan 20 2011, 12:41 AM']No need, it's already covered by basic science. What's the difference in 3+2 or 2+3? Hint: the difference is subtle but 3+2 gives a more solid 5 as it's building on a larger foundation and the 3 can support the 2 much better than the other way around leading to a more musical and round 5.

More complex science has also shown that anyone who believes there will be a difference will hear it when given the visual cue. It's similar to the counting horses in a way.[/quote]

I don't really have time to watch these videos, but I'm genuinely interested in what's upset you here.

What exactly was said about the comparison between the two?

What claims were EBMM making about the comparison between the two things (i.e. 1,2 in series as opposed to 2,1 in series)? Did they say you can or should be able to tell the difference between the two?

[Chris2112]

If anyone has the power and the position to make this idea work, it's EBMM. After all, they can get the big names behind it. I'm still not convinced though, that all this "tone changing" capability is needed. I love the flexibility of the ACG preamp, but that is a million miles away from this remote, computer powered stuff that EBMM and Gibson are looking at. I like Musicman basses because they're simple and sound good straight off the rack!

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='1095870' date='Jan 19 2011, 04:45 PM']Like Alleva headstocks releaving dead spots! I still don't buy it but maybe if I owned one I would "hear it" ?[/quote]
Sadowsky also claimed his slightly thicker headstock removed deadspots. The problem is going by the claim of what it fixes and how it doesn't make sense as it would cause deadspots in some necks that didn't have them as before.

So much of this gear magic, like hearing the direction of electricity, are obviously flawed just by the logic. It's like how people want the old vintage tone from the 1960's that they heard on records as a kid that is caused by the wood aging for 40 years.

At some point you just want to smack people on the head and tell them to go to school, but first may I interest you in a brass plate for your headstock or some free range copper wiring for your bass?

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='1095873' date='Jan 19 2011, 04:51 PM']I don't really have time to watch these videos, but I'm genuinely interested in what's upset you here.

What exactly was said about the comparison between the two?

What claims were EBMM making about the comparison between the two things (i.e. 1,2 in series as opposed to 2,1 in series)? Did they say you can or should be able to tell the difference between the two?[/quote]
Yeah, they did. We also have a claim of 16 tonal variations with just 2 coils but that just may be hyperbolic inertia in the populace acting as a multiplier.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1095878' date='Jan 20 2011, 12:57 AM']Yeah, they did. We also have a claim of 16 tonal variations with just 2 coils but that just may be hyperbolic inertia in the populace acting as a multiplier.[/quote]

What [i]exactly[/i] did they say?

[jimmyb625]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1095864' date='Jan 20 2011, 12:41 AM']No need, it's already covered by basic science. What's the difference in 3+2 or 2+3? Hint: the difference is subtle but 3+2 gives a more solid 5 as it's building on a larger foundation and the 3 can support the 2 much better than the other way around leading to a more musical and round 5.

More complex science has also shown that anyone who believes there will be a difference will hear it when given the visual cue. It's similar to the counting horses in a way.[/quote]

I never really was much good with science.

I couldn't work out if light was a wave, or particles.

Anyway, like I said, it will be good to do a comparison on one. It should be pretty straightforward to look at the waveforms of the two, you could use something along the lines of an ebow to generate the note, removing any possible picking variation.

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='1095885' date='Jan 19 2011, 05:09 PM']What [i]exactly[/i] did they say?[/quote]
That's from an earlier post in this thread

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='jimmyb625' post='1095886' date='Jan 19 2011, 05:13 PM']I never really was much good with science.

I couldn't work out if light was a wave, or particles.

Anyway, like I said, it will be good to do a comparison on one. It should be pretty straightforward to look at the waveforms of the two, you could use something along the lines of an ebow to generate the note, removing any possible picking variation.[/quote]
No, any playing and or listening test done by EBMM or a fanboy is as valid as a psychic telling you about their successes. I've made the claim 3+2 is better than 2+3 and explained why. It makes sense. No one has proved me wrong.

Adding an ebow is a waste of time, simply measure the resistance and capacitance of the coils and show a predictable and repeatable change based on the order of the coils. Then try to explain how changing the order of 2 identical coils changes the sound. Then place $40 in an envelope and address it to...

I need to change my math example to make it more applicable, 3+3 is better than 3+3.

[Vibrating G String]

Anyone familiar with Lee Sklar's infamous "producer switch"? It's similar but instead of tricking us it tricks them. Haha!

[jimmyb625]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1095889' date='Jan 20 2011, 01:19 AM']That's from an earlier post in this thread [/quote]

Yes, I gave the combinations based on how I believe the switching options have been calculated.

Based on 2 coils, I said there were 16, which included 1&2, 2&1, 1//2 and 1 and 2 separately.

This was done in response to another poster wondering on the variations that could be obtained from a P-Bass. The decision to split the coil into two was mine, based on the assumption that it's possible to do it, regardless of how it sounds.

If you check the vids on the EBMM site, Steve Morse has said that there is a tonal difference (doesn't count though) and on the main forum there is a post from Pete DuBaldo saying that he tested the different series combinations and he heard a difference (also probably doesn't count, as he's a 'fanboy').

I'd just like to see a test of it.

[jimmyb625]

[quote name='Vibrating G String' post='1095891' date='Jan 20 2011, 01:28 AM']No, any playing and or listening test done by EBMM or a fanboy is as valid as a psychic telling you about their successes. I've made the claim 3+2 is better than 2+3 and explained why. It makes sense. No one has proved me wrong.

Adding an ebow is a waste of time, simply measure the resistance and capacitance of the coils and show a predictable and repeatable change based on the order of the coils. Then try to explain how changing the order of 2 identical coils changes the sound. Then place $40 in an envelope and address it to...

I need to change my math example to make it more applicable, 3+3 is better than 3+3.
[/quote]

Are you referring to me here?

[Vibrating G String]

[quote name='jimmyb625' post='1095893' date='Jan 19 2011, 05:32 PM']Yes, I gave the combinations based on how I believe the switching options have been calculated.

Based on 2 coils, I said there were 16, which included 1&2, 2&1, 1//2 and 1 and 2 separately.

This was done in response to another poster wondering on the variations that could be obtained from a P-Bass. The decision to split the coil into two was mine, based on the assumption that it's possible to do it, regardless of how it sounds.

If you check the vids on the EBMM site, Steve Morse has said that there is a tonal difference (doesn't count though) and on the main forum there is a post from Pete DuBaldo saying that he tested the different series combinations and he heard a difference (also probably doesn't count, as he's a 'fanboy').

I'd just like to see a test of it.[/quote]
So your asking me to tell me what you said? I don't understand the point of that. And you're telling me about tests done in the way you'd do it but you say you haven't seen any and want to see some done?

At this point I'd say buy one and enjoy all the different tones