Lysdexia Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Hi Guys, I'll cut a long story short here - in December last year I sold what I believed to be a genuine Gibson Les Paul. The buyer has now come back to me and is claiming the serial is a fake. Before I refund his money and take back possession of the guitar I'd like to check as best I can that he is at least, in turn, being honest with me. The serial number in question is as follow: 80645481 Is there anyway to learn conclusively if this is indeed the genuine article or a fake as he claims? In the email I received, he goes on to list a number issues with the guitar suggesting that the serial number is far being the only thing fake about it. Any information about the number and other things to watch for would be very helpful indeed. Not least because I sent the guitar to the guy in London and he has now returned to Argentina - I'm assuming he would like me to refund his money to a bank in Argentina and then he will ship the guitar to me. Should I use an escrow service? Jings - my head is done in! Many thanks - Andy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raggy Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I guess the first thing to try is contact Gibson support perhaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Lysdexia' post='1089235' date='Jan 14 2011, 12:44 PM']Hi Guys, I'll cut a long story short here - in December last year I sold what I believed to be a genuine Gibson Les Paul. The buyer has now come back to me and is claiming the serial is a fake. Before I refund his money and take back possession of the guitar I'd like to check as best I can that he is at least, in turn, being honest with me. The serial number in question is as follow: 80645481[/quote] According to an online checker, that serial number indicates that it belongs to a guitar made at the Kalamazoo Plant on March 5th, 1985. What are the other items he claims are fake? My gut reaction is that refunding money to Argentina will result in the loss of your money [b]and[/b] the guitar. Edited January 14, 2011 by icastle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon1964 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='icastle' post='1089244' date='Jan 14 2011, 12:50 PM']According to an online checker, that serial number indicates that it belongs to a guitar made at the Kalamazoo Plant on March 5th, 1985.[/quote] agreed - link here: [url="http://www.guitardaterproject.org/gibson.aspx"]http://www.guitardaterproject.org/gibson.aspx[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysdexia Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='icastle' post='1089244' date='Jan 14 2011, 12:50 PM']According to an online checker, that serial number indicates that it belongs to a guitar made at the Kalamazoo Plant on March 5th, 1985.[/quote] Aye, thanks for that - I just found that info at guitar dater. I'm thinking the guy has received bad advice or is trying to scam me. Not least because I bought, played and enjoyed the guitar myself with no suspicions at all. I'm no expert, but have been playing since the 70's and had no concerns at all about the authenticity of the guitar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='Lysdexia' post='1089248' date='Jan 14 2011, 12:54 PM']Aye, thanks for that - I just found that info at guitar dater. I'm thinking the guy has received bad advice or is trying to scam me. Not least because I bought, played and enjoyed the guitar myself with no suspicions at all. I'm no expert, but have been playing since the 70's and had no concerns at all about the authenticity of the guitar.[/quote] I'm of the mind that refunding the money will result in loss of the money [b]and [/b]the guitar as the buyer has moved to t'other side of the world and it's unlikely that you'll be able to track him down. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it does sound like a scam in the making... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomEndian Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='simon1964' post='1089246' date='Jan 14 2011, 12:53 PM']agreed - link here: [url="http://www.guitardaterproject.org/gibson.aspx"]http://www.guitardaterproject.org/gibson.aspx[/url][/quote] The trouble is that you can enter any old 8-digit number and it'll interpret the numbers according to the Gibson rules. For example, I just gave it 12345678... [quote]Your guitar was made at the Nashville Plant, TN, USA August 22nd, [b]2015[/b] Production Number: 378[/quote] You could make a fake Gibson, use that site to figure out what serial number you'd need to make it look a certain age, and then whack that number on the headstock. It's certainly no guarantee that the serial number itself isn't fake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysdexia Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='icastle' post='1089252' date='Jan 14 2011, 12:58 PM']I'm of the mind that refunding the money will result in loss of the money [b]and [/b]the guitar as the buyer has moved to t'other side of the world and it's unlikely that you'll be able to track him down. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it does sound like a scam in the making...[/quote] Hi again - doesn't sound harsh at all, I've been scammed before and I'm not about to be suckered again if I can help it. Any and all advice that will make sure I don't get done on most welcome! Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Heeley Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 What evidence does he cite that he thinks the ser/no is not authentic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='Lysdexia' post='1089256' date='Jan 14 2011, 01:00 PM']Hi again - doesn't sound harsh at all, I've been scammed before and I'm not about to be suckered again if I can help it. Any and all advice that will make sure I don't get done on most welcome![/quote] What were the other reasons he gave that makes him suspect it's a fake? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Agreed with icastle, sounds like it could be dodgy however he could also be right. Has he actually offered any proof that it isn't real? I mean like confirmation from Gibson etc. Until then it's all speculation anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon1964 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) [quote name='BottomEndian' post='1089255' date='Jan 14 2011, 12:59 PM']You could make a fake Gibson, use that site to figure out what serial number you'd need to make it look a certain age, and then whack that number on the headstock. It's certainly no guarantee that the serial number itself isn't fake.[/quote] I took the original post to mean that the buyer was saying this was not a genuine Gibson serial number, which in fact it is. Whether its applied to a genuine Gibson might be another matter, but its not a fake serial number. Edited January 14, 2011 by simon1964 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neepheid Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) Tell him to prove it, take you to court or poke it. Don't send any refund unless you get the guitar back first. Oh, and if he gets arsey, make some kind of reference to the Falkland Islands, always a crowd pleaser. That last piece of advice might have been a joke. Edited January 14, 2011 by neepheid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorick Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Point him to the serial number websites, ask for a list of other reasons for it being a fake, then ask to supply you with a written appraisal from a Gibson expert/Gibson themselves of the guitar in question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverBlackman Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 There are many fakes around, my dad worked in a shop where they had a fake epiphone, the only give away was that the "h" was in the wrong place on the headstock. Still apparently Gibson were very helpful in dealing with the issue and sent plenty of photo's of what to look out for on the fake models Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='neepheid' post='1089265' date='Jan 14 2011, 01:05 PM']Oh, and if he gets arsey, make some kind of reference to the Falkland Islands, always a crowd pleaser.[/quote] You don't post on a US Jeep forum by any chance do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icastle Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='simon1964' post='1089264' date='Jan 14 2011, 01:05 PM']I took the original post to mean that the buyer was saying this was not a genuine Gibson serial number, which in fact it is. Whether its applied to a genuine Gibson might be another matter, but its not a fake serial number.[/quote] Yep - that's why I was careful about how I worded my response and asked what else the buyer claims is wrong... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottomEndian Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='simon1964' post='1089264' date='Jan 14 2011, 01:05 PM']I took the original post to mean that the buyer was saying this was not a genuine Gibson serial number, which in fact it is.[/quote] Do we actually know this though? As I said, the Guitar Dater website will respond to any old number. Just because it dishes up information doesn't necessarily mean that it's a genuine number (after all, I'm pretty sure the Gibson with s/n 12345678 hasn't yet been made ). The only people who'll be able to confirm anything will be Gibson themselves... and only if they've kept proper records. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerley Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 The process for a return is that he returns the guitar to you and then you give the refund. When you suggest that you may never hear from him again! If he sends it back then guess it isn't a very good scam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neepheid Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='Johnston' post='1089299' date='Jan 14 2011, 01:25 PM']Isn't there something about Gibsons being really hard to date by the serial number. Something about them not actually going in any sort of sequential order?? Or is that only the real vintage stuff? Besides that if I went to another country and bought a high end instrument I would be pretty keen to check the authenticity of it before leaving the country and going home half way across the globe.[/quote] The current, sane system began in late 1977. There was a brief attempt at sanity from 1975-77, before then there's not a lot of rhyme and reason to it, serial numbers can mean a few things and you need something like pot codes or body/neck date stamps to make sense of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) [quote name='kerley' post='1089284' date='Jan 14 2011, 01:16 PM']The process for a return is that he returns the guitar to you and then you give the refund. When you suggest that you may never hear from him again! If he sends it back then guess it isn't a very good scam.[/quote] Thats the way its done and don't let anything persuade you otherwise. I don't know if it was via ebay/paypal but if it was and he complains to paypal and they have your credit card number or bank account, they may well just take the money from it if they arbitrarily decide against you. So watch out. Edited January 14, 2011 by daz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon1964 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='BottomEndian' post='1089282' date='Jan 14 2011, 01:15 PM']Do we actually know this though? As I said, the Guitar Dater website will respond to any old number. Just because it dishes up information doesn't necessarily mean that it's a genuine number (after all, I'm pretty sure the Gibson with s/n 12345678 hasn't yet been made ). The only people who'll be able to confirm anything will be Gibson themselves... and only if they've kept proper records.[/quote] Yes, I take your point. But I assume the buyer is saying that this is not a serial number which Gibson would apply to one of their guitars. At least we know it is a combination of numbers which is consistent with a Gibson! I guess you can never be 100% certain a serial number is genuine, but the fact that the number is "right" for the model is some reassurance. I agree its never going to be definitive though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor J Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Have you got pictures of the guitar in question, plus can you provide what he suggests what makes it a fake? Even fakes usually have serial numbers, so it's no evidence one way or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
essexbasscat Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Watch out for Escrow as well. A friend of mine looked into this. I can't remember the details, but the terms horrified me at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_skezz Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 [quote name='BottomEndian' post='1089255' date='Jan 14 2011, 12:59 PM']The trouble is that you can enter any old 8-digit number and it'll interpret the numbers according to the Gibson rules. For example, I just gave it 12345678...[/quote] Is it sad that I've spent the last ten minutes seeing how far into the future I can go with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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