Bi-amping

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='MoJ' post='13733' date='Jun 7 2007, 01:45 PM']I had channel one on the crossover marked as low, then channel one on the power amp as low, and the appropriate speakon connection on the cab (if it were th O15) labelled? Would make things clearer. Just a thought
Thanks for all your advice though Bill, most helpful!
Andy[/quote]All well and good provided you never muck it up, and if you don't you're a better man than I. Better to use a system that can't be hooked up wrong even if you try.

[MoJ]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='13819' date='Jun 7 2007, 08:37 PM']All well and good provided you never muck it up, and if you don't you're a better man than I. Better to use a system that can't be hooked up wrong even if you try.[/quote]

Tis true!
Well, Im going to see if I can make-shift a semi bi-amped set-up (low bass one cab and fll range another) at rehearsal tomorrow. Hopefully that will give me even a vague idea if Im going to like the sound.
Thaks guys!
Andy

[MoJ]

[quote name='The Funk' post='12443' date='Jun 5 2007, 01:08 PM']This is similar to what I do.

My Aguilar DB680 preamp has a built-in crossover. I use the low crossover out for real low end to my 1 x 15 and I run the 2 x 10 full range. Sounds awesome like this.[/quote]

Looks like [url="http://www.fender.com/products/search.php?partno=2147000000"]this[/url] may well have the same possibility too, as it has an in-built crosover and also a full range out on it too.
Just looked at the price of an DB680 and ouch, thats a bit too steep. Not that I know the price of the TBP-1 yet, but IM looking..
Andy

[The Funk]

Don't buy the DB680 new in the UK. Secondhand on the US ebay is far more reasonable, even after you've paid for delivery and the extra 22.5% in tax.

Also, I wouldn't fork out the money for one if all you're after is trying out different bi-amping options. Lovely preamp though.

[alexclaber]

I've decided to build my own active crossover, following these plans:

[url="http://sound.westhost.com/project09.htm"]http://sound.westhost.com/project09.htm[/url]

But there's tons of cheap and active rackmount ones - Rane make some fine examples - that you could use between preamp and power amp.

Alex

[The Funk]

Exactly. And with a dedicated active crossover you may get dual benefits of saving money and getting more control over your sound.

[MoJ]

[quote name='The Funk' post='14067' date='Jun 8 2007, 10:51 AM']Don't buy the DB680 new in the UK. Secondhand on the US ebay is far more reasonable, even after you've paid for delivery and the extra 22.5% in tax.

Also, I wouldn't fork out the money for one if all you're after is trying out different bi-amping options. Lovely preamp though.[/quote]

Well,I checked out [url="http://www.basstasters.com/"]this site[/url] as quoted in another thread in the Amps and Cabs section, and I appreciate that the samples they have are dependant on knowing the EQ settings they have used, I found the Aguilar didnt seem to have the extra brighness Im looking forward. That again is also dependant on the bass's used but there were others that I prefered. Particularly the Mesa Walkabout (bright and warm ) and the Warwick Quadruplet (a little darker but still bright enough). The TBP-1 just sounded muddy to me. Sadly the Mesa, if I could find anywhere selling them, is more than likely out of my budget. If I could find a Trace Elliot V-Type Id be made!
Thanks for the info though Funk

[quote name='alexclaber' post='14080' date='Jun 8 2007, 11:15 AM']I've decided to build my own active crossover, following these plans:

[url="http://sound.westhost.com/project09.htm"]http://sound.westhost.com/project09.htm[/url]

But there's tons of cheap and active rackmount ones - Rane make some fine examples - that you could use between preamp and power amp.

Alex[/quote]

Cheers. I had a brief look at that and being as Im not too bright electronics wise, I think Im better off buying one. I should be able to get a Peavey one from work cheap enough though. Cant see anything wrong with those but Ill have to see if I can try one first.
Let me know how you get on with your set-up when your finished though Alex. Wouldnt mind hearing how you get on and what you're opinions on the end result are.

[quote name='The Funk' post='14084' date='Jun 8 2007, 11:18 AM']Exactly. And with a dedicated active crossover you may get dual benefits of saving money and getting more control over your sound.[/quote]

Indeed!

Well,tonight I tried a make shift semi bi-amped set up. There is an old Peavey bas head lying around at the reheasal room, so I had that being fed off the line out of my Trace head which was going full range into my 4 x 10 and the highs and mids cut completely from the Peavey, and boosting from 80 hz to 340 hz, which was going into the 1 x 15.
One of the guitarists, who has too much bass in his sound I think anyway (and is my main reason for tring this out) said that the bottom end was a little woolly (ie no definition) but I have to admit, I was rather impressed overall.
I felt I had more control over the balance of the highs and lows of my sound and also found I could run the EQ on my Trace head alot flatter. In fact, apart from boosting around 1 kHz and 2 kHz and the pre-shape on, it was flat.
Otherwise, I felt the bottom end was a lot bigger (and I actually felt the bottom end tonight, for once!) and considering I was running with less steam due to the load ptesented to each head being less (one 8 ohm cab per head) the Trace's output volume control remained in the same place as per 4 ohms, instead of having to increase it. The Peavey head is less watts than my Trace, and that wasnt even running near half way on the volume.

All in all, Im definitley feeling this is the way forward for me. I know its a half-arsed way of doing it but it gave me the control I was after and near enough a decent sound to give a good idea of what to do. Chuffed as a chocolate frog!

What I may do is build things up bit by bit. Buy a crossover and small(ish) power amp and run the line out from my Trace into the crossover and then power amp and do as I did tonight and have that feed one cab while my Trace does the full range bit. Then try buidling a/some BFM cabs and go full bi-amp, or at the very least continue full range and low pass but with a nice small preamp and rackmount the lot after selling everything I have now.

Sorry for the long post guys. Once again, thanks for everybodies input, especially for those that sugeested this full range and low pass idea. Just had to share my findings.
Andy

[Alien]

If you want a mono crossover, you could do a lot worse than the Rolls SX21

[url="http://www.smartsounddirect.com/content/ProductDetails.asp?ProductID=SSD1137"]http://www.smartsounddirect.com/content/Pr...oductID=SSD1137[/url]

Small, sounds good, and well built.

Andy

[MoJ]

[quote name='Alien' post='14460' date='Jun 9 2007, 01:10 AM']If you want a mono crossover, you could do a lot worse than the Rolls SX21

[url="http://www.smartsounddirect.com/content/ProductDetails.asp?ProductID=SSD1137"]http://www.smartsounddirect.com/content/Pr...oductID=SSD1137[/url]

Small, sounds good, and well built.

Andy[/quote]

Thanks Andy,
I had been wondering if such a thing were available,but as yet hadnt really looked in to it. That Rolls crossover looks a good price, and size. Might need it rackmonutable though if I follw the whole seperates idea through.
Thanks though.


[quote name='BeLow' post='14504' date='Jun 9 2007, 08:06 AM']Why would you bi-amp?


I did wonder whether you were looking at bi-amping because there is the facility to do it using the pre-amp you were looking at - in the past I have been tempted to look at bi-amping, but more for the reason that the facility exists rather than because it is something that I really felt I needed.[/quote]

Well,its now become a little of both really. When I first heard and understood what the procedure was, it was something that interested me from the start. After last night and going for an albeit crude attempt at full range and low pass, it seems like it is something Id like to persue.
I appreciate your input though. As Ive said before, that is why I set up this thread. I wanted to get as man different views on bi-amping as I could.
While I dont have the manpower that Entwistle would have had, Im still waying up the option of Bill's designs for a Titan 39 sub, and Omni 10.5 for for the top. I think this has a lot of flexibility to it as, as I understand it the O10.5 is designed essentially as a ful range cab meaning I can run it on its own for small gigs if I need to, or fully bi-amped for larger gigs or have the O10.5 full range and crossover (filter out?) a portion of my low end to the T39.
I also realise that I wouldnt neccessarily need so much in the watts department now.
This partial bi-amp idea has really got me so far.

So,to summarise, its a case of wanting to know what it would sound like, and also I believe a need (see my previos post from last night about one of the guitarists in the band having too much bass in his sound, despite assking him to reduce it!).
Besides all this, Im great at procrastination. I may not follow this up at all!!

Thanks
Andy

Edited June 9, 2007 by MoJ

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='BeLow' post='14504' date='Jun 9 2007, 08:06 AM']I have to admit to not having followed every twist of this thread so I apologise if I missed anything and have repeated it.

Why would you bi-amp?[/quote]

I alluded to this earlier on in the thread. I've tried it and didn't like but that is my opinion... fine.

However, more importantly you are effectively going down the route that Dood has studied which is a PA system for bass! Does your present or near future requirements necessitate this kind of set-up? If not, for the kind of money you will end up spending you could build some of BFM's cabs (for a modular rig) and get a top quality full range head.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='14556' date='Jun 9 2007, 11:16 AM']I alluded to this earlier on in the thread. I've tried it and didn't like but that is my opinion... fine.

However, more importantly you are effectively going down the route that Dood has studied which is a PA system for bass! Does your present or near future requirements necessitate this kind of set-up? If not, for the kind of money you will end up spending you could build some of BFM's cabs (for a modular rig) and get a top quality full range head.[/quote]

I don't think your opinion on biamping is actually very relevant because although you've tried it a number of times you've never tried it with cabs that are designed for it! Furthermore I don't think Dood has really studied the PA system for bass thing - he's thought about it and gone with standard bass cabs again...

I think the idea of an Omni 10.5 and Titan 39 is an excellent one. For quieter rehearsals or gigs with full PA support the Omni 10.5 should be loud enough as a fullrange cab, whilst you can add the Titan 39 and run the rig biamped with a ~150Hz crossover point for louder situations or where you're providing all the bottom. Do this with a rack preamp, crossover and power amp, and buy used and you should be able to assemble an awesome rig for very little money. I gather Thumper (who now resides on finnbass) has a similar rig in progress.

Although I can understand people thinking that a 'top quality full range bass head' will give a better sound, both live and recorded, they really are designed down to a price and weight and both rack preamps and power amps tend to perform significantly better on noise, distortion, clarity and real world power.

The really great thing about biamping, particularly when you have a low crossover point (as in an Omni 15 or even more so an Omni 10.5 plus Titan 39) is that you maintain a constant crossover point and slope regardless of power compression (which changes the voice coil impedance and thus the crossover characteristics with a passive crossover) AND when you run out of power in the lows (which always happens first) you just get compression and distortion on them (which to most ears sound likes punchier bass) and the midrange and treble remains clean and clear.

Alex

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='14673' date='Jun 9 2007, 04:08 PM']I don't think your opinion on biamping is actually very relevant because although you've tried it a number of times you've never tried it with cabs that are designed for it! Furthermore I don't think Dood has really studied the PA system for bass thing - he's thought about it and gone with standard bass cabs again...


Alex[/quote]

My view on bi-amping is as relevant as anyone else who has run an amp that has bi-amp capability and cabs that are readily available on the market today.

I do fully accept your point that it [b]will[/b] be different with a custom pre/power dedicated cab(s) set-up. I still however have reservations about the benefits of such a rig for the majority of gigging bassists! If you are using decent PA support then you need to feed a full range signal to that and then it is dependent upon the PA as to how good the bi/tri-amp facility is. So you are left with your rig acting as a monitor in which case best hope that the stage or area you set-up on is of sufficient area to get the benefit. If the bi-amp rig you run is to be the FOH sound that is to be heard by the public then I hope the rest of the bands equipment is up to the standard that yours is!

I'm not trying to argue anyone out of trying bi-amping just because it didn't do it for me, far from it. I'm simply pointing out that a full range signal into one or 2 way cabs is absolutely fine for many of us; there may well be newbie bassists who read this thread and think that they have to start worrying about the benefits and pitfalls of bi-amping, when really they should be spending more time studying song craft or their instruments potential.

For a sector of the bass playing fraternity the issue of sound reinforcement is a valid and important issue and I 'know' that manufacturers are giving us short shrift with equipment, so long may we discuss how to achieve the holy grail of tone, maybe then good practise will creep into the equipment that we buy off the shop floor.

[MoJ]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='14673' date='Jun 9 2007, 04:08 PM']I think the idea of an Omni 10.5 and Titan 39 is an excellent one. For quieter rehearsals or gigs with full PA support the Omni 10.5 should be loud enough as a fullrange cab, whilst you can add the Titan 39 and run the rig biamped with a ~150Hz crossover point for louder situations or where you're providing all the bottom. Do this with a rack preamp, crossover and power amp, and buy used and you should be able to assemble an awesome rig for very little money. I gather Thumper (who now resides on finnbass) has a similar rig in progress.

Alex[/quote]

Thats what Im thinking with regards to the O15/O10.5 + T39 debate.
At least there is flexibility with the two seperate cabs, and should I find after a while that I dont like the bi-amping sound, I can revert to full range O10.5 and send a low signal to the T39, or just build another O10.5 (or O10 and have the O10.5 as a home practice cab) and go full range period!

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='14710' date='Jun 9 2007, 05:42 PM']My view on bi-amping is as relevant as anyone else who has run an amp that has bi-amp capability and cabs that are readily available on the market today.

I do fully accept your point that it [b]will[/b] be different with a custom pre/power dedicated cab(s) set-up. I still however have reservations about the benefits of such a rig for the majority of gigging bassists! If you are using decent PA support then you need to feed a full range signal to that and then it is dependent upon the PA as to how good the bi/tri-amp facility is. So you are left with your rig acting as a monitor in which case best hope that the stage or area you set-up on is of sufficient area to get the benefit. If the bi-amp rig you run is to be the FOH sound that is to be heard by the public then I hope the rest of the bands equipment is up to the standard that yours is!

I'm not trying to argue anyone out of trying bi-amping just because it didn't do it for me, far from it. I'm simply pointing out that a full range signal into one or 2 way cabs is absolutely fine for many of us; there may well be newbie bassists who read this thread and think that they have to start worrying about the benefits and pitfalls of bi-amping, when really they should be spending more time studying song craft or their instruments potential.

For a sector of the bass playing fraternity the issue of sound reinforcement is a valid and important issue and I 'know' that manufacturers are giving us short shrift with equipment, so long may we discuss how to achieve the holy grail of tone, maybe then good practise will creep into the equipment that we buy off the shop floor.

[/quote]

Two things, why do we all take a backline with us to gigs, even with 'decent' PA, with the exception to some, like Ped who use amp modeling and in-ear monitors?And although Ive not done too many gigs, Ive found that even the larger venues with supposedly decent PA, the wedge monitors just never give me what I like to hear of my sound. Some all Ive heard is the top end of my sound and completely overpowered the guitars, and some give me the low end and very weakly. This is probably more to do with the sound techs than anything, but why should I rely on them? Maybe its just my inexperience of being able to tell them what I want to hear but if I have a sound that I can rely on at gigs, that compliments the rest of the band, then I should use it and not have to rely on others interpretations.
Sorry, I know that comes across as confrontational but thats how I see it.

With regards to focusing less on sound and more on songs and instruments yes, this is still the backbone of why we ALL do this (I would imagine), new starter or old hand. However, when you have difficulty in hearing what you have written or how your instrument sounds, would like to hear it better, then these things need to be discussed. Hopefully as a byproduct then those with years of playin ahead can gleam something intelligable from it too.,As well as, as you point out Warwickhunt, maybe manufacturers will do too!

Relevancy of opinion aside, out of interest what do you guys play, music wise? I guess while we're at it instrument wise and what kind of sound are you wanting to achieve?
Just may give me some angle as to your opinions on this long debated matter
And that goes for everyone too, not just Alex or Warwick..
Thanks
Andy

[alexclaber]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='14710' date='Jun 9 2007, 05:42 PM']My view on bi-amping is as relevant as anyone else who has run an amp that has bi-amp capability and cabs that are readily available on the market today.[/quote]

In which case it remains irrelevant as we're not talking about readily available cabs!

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='14710' date='Jun 9 2007, 05:42 PM']I do fully accept your point that it [b]will[/b] be different with a custom pre/power dedicated cab(s) set-up.[/quote]

Well that's a start.

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='14710' date='Jun 9 2007, 05:42 PM']I still however have reservations about the benefits of such a rig for the majority of gigging bassists![/quote]

This is a specific question for a specific requirement, not something that has to be all things to all people.

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='14710' date='Jun 9 2007, 05:42 PM']If you are using decent PA support then you need to feed a full range signal to that and then it is dependent upon the PA as to how good the bi/tri-amp facility is.[/quote]

I'm sorry but what are you wittering on about?

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='14710' date='Jun 9 2007, 05:42 PM']So you are left with your rig acting as a monitor in which case best hope that the stage or area you set-up on is of sufficient area to get the benefit.[/quote]

And does this not hold true for any powerful rig? The rig I'm suggesting is of similar size and power to your Tech 610. Whether it is biamped or not is immaterial.

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='14710' date='Jun 9 2007, 05:42 PM']If the bi-amp rig you run is to be the FOH sound that is to be heard by the public then I hope the rest of the bands equipment is up to the standard that yours is![/quote]

Since when did one member of the band having good equipment mean that everyone else's less nice equipment sounds bad?! What has this to do with biamping anyway?

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='14710' date='Jun 9 2007, 05:42 PM']I'm not trying to argue anyone out of trying bi-amping just because it didn't do it for me, far from it. I'm simply pointing out that a full range signal into one or 2 way cabs is absolutely fine for many of us;[/quote]

I'd have thought many of your previous rigs would have been fine for many of us - why did you change?

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='14710' date='Jun 9 2007, 05:42 PM']there may well be newbie bassists who read this thread and think that they have to start worrying about the benefits and pitfalls of bi-amping, when really they should be spending more time studying song craft or their instruments potential.[/quote]

Or there maybe newbie bassists thinking they need really expensive gear and wasting time researching that...

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='14710' date='Jun 9 2007, 05:42 PM']For a sector of the bass playing fraternity the issue of sound reinforcement is a valid and important issue and I 'know' that manufacturers are giving us short shrift with equipment, so long may we discuss how to achieve the holy grail of tone, maybe then good practise will creep into the equipment that we buy off the shop floor.[/quote]

I totally agree.

Alex

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='14866' date='Jun 10 2007, 12:20 AM']In which case it remains irrelevant as we're not talking about readily available cabs!
Well that's a start.
This is a specific question for a specific requirement, not something that has to be all things to all people.
I'm sorry but what are you wittering on about?
And does this not hold true for any powerful rig? The rig I'm suggesting is of similar size and power to your Tech 610. Whether it is biamped or not is immaterial.



Since when did one member of the band having good equipment mean that everyone else's less nice equipment sounds bad?! What has this to do with biamping anyway?
I'd have thought many of your previous rigs would have been fine for many of us - why did you change?



Or there maybe newbie bassists thinking they need really expensive gear and wasting time researching that...
I totally agree.

Alex[/quote]
I'm so glad you [b]totally[/b] agree!

[alexclaber]

[quote name='MoJ' post='14752' date='Jun 9 2007, 07:19 PM']Thats what Im thinking with regards to the O15/O10.5 + T39 debate.
At least there is flexibility with the two seperate cabs, and should I find after a while that I dont like the bi-amping sound...[/quote]

Just one thing, quickly. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE BIAMPING SOUND.

Alex

[MoJ]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='14869' date='Jun 10 2007, 12:26 AM']Just one thing, quickly. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE BIAMPING SOUND.

Alex[/quote]

Ok, well if I dont like how a bi-amped system sounds?? No need to shout Alex...
Maybe if I said that id I dont like what bi-amping does or that I dont notice a difference? Either way, BFM cabs allow me a few options.

I think this heat is messing with people's rational thought process's. Ive had a few people at work be really crabby and I dont really need it when they're the 10th person Ive served like that, and Im stuck in what feels like an oven!
After reading the last few posts I really didnt aim for this to become a personal attack thread. If you's guys have got a beef with each other, please don't extend that to me Alex.
Its far too hot (well it is in my pokey little flat) to be arguing online. There is a difference of opinion and lets leave it at that, no?
I do appreciate and regard what you say Alex, as Ive read quite a number of your posts since the Bassworld days and you seem well informed (if that isnt putting it too mildly), but you start to invalidate them by saying that other people's opinions don't count.

Thanks
Andy

Edited June 10, 2007 by MoJ

[warwickhunt]

Don't worry about it Andy, I don't feel like I'm attacking anyone or being attacked.

I have a view on the subject which is based on my attempts at improving the sound that I get through the process known as bi-amping; using manufacturers dedicated bi-amp equipped amps and with pre/power set-ups (H&K Fortress & Peavey DPC amp makes for quite a portable set-up). Alex has a view based upon his work with bi-amping, which due to his perseverance suits 'his' musical style (both genre and playing style). Neither of us can be wrong because it is a matter of taste. You may as well ask, which is better Fender or Warwick, 10"/12"/15" drivers, Eminence or B&C, Carlsberg or Fosters, Tuna or Pepperoni!

Of course I could be wrong about this and there might be a definitive answer... who gives a sh*t?

[MoJ]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='14957' date='Jun 10 2007, 10:06 AM']Don't worry about it Andy, I don't feel like I'm attacking anyone or being attacked.

I have a view on the subject which is based on my attempts at improving the sound that I get through the process known as bi-amping; using manufacturers dedicated bi-amp equipped amps and with pre/power set-ups (H&K Fortress & Peavey DPC amp makes for quite a portable set-up). Alex has a view based upon his work with bi-amping, which due to his perseverance suits 'his' musical style (both genre and playing style). Neither of us can be wrong because it is a matter of taste. You may as well ask, which is better Fender or Warwick, 10"/12"/15" drivers, Eminence or B&C, Carlsberg or Fosters, Tuna or Pepperoni!

Of course I could be wrong about this and there might be a definitive answer... who gives a sh*t?

[/quote]

Quite! There isn't a definitve answer, and as I said in the initial post, I was really just interested to know if anyone here bi-amps and if so, how they go about it, and what equipment they use. Opinions are also greatly welcomed, so long as there is a reason behind that opinion. So I kinda give sh*t.

Anyhoo, lets get off this who's roght and who's wrong debate and get back to the matter in hand.
Thank you both for your posts. All is duely noted.
Now that Dave Hall has mentioned [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=1390"]this[/url], Im all the more keen know. I love Dave's overdrive pedals and a preamp like this could just be my thing
Thanks
Andy

Oh, and how dare you make me choose between tuna and pepperoni? Both just as tastey IMO...

Edited June 10, 2007 by MoJ

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='MoJ' post='14976' date='Jun 10 2007, 10:57 AM']Oh, and how dare you make me choose between tuna and pepperoni? Both just as tastey IMO... [/quote]

Now this is one subject where I must put my foot down Andy.

Fresh tuna cooked so that it is still pink in the middle I love, tinned tuna in a sarnie with fresh pepper is fine BUT sorry, if we are talking pizza there is no debate 'tuna is wrong'!

[MoJ]

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='14985' date='Jun 10 2007, 11:16 AM']Now this is one subject where I must put my foot down Andy.

Fresh tuna cooked so that it is still pink in the middle I love, tinned tuna in a sarnie with fresh pepper is fine BUT sorry, if we are talking pizza there is no debate 'tuna is wrong'!

[/quote]

I wouldnt say on pizza its wrong, but then Id eat both on they're own to be honest!
did you ever think of a tuna/pepperoni feast? I only just have but hmm....

Hahahaaaa

Andy

[alexclaber]

Check out this website, there is a lot of good reading here:

[url="http://sound.westhost.com/articles.htm"]http://sound.westhost.com/articles.htm[/url]

---------

My personal bugbear is the habit I repeatedly encounter of people trying something, hearing a qualitative result and thus deciding that X always equals Y without ever questioning why that might be. It is repeated all over the place in such quotes as:

"You can't slap on a P-bass"
"Fifteen inch speakers sound slow"
"The bigger the speaker the lower it goes"
"Rear ported cabs don't work properly without a wall behind them"
"You have to play behind the beat on reggae"
"Less is always more"
"You have to cut your mids when slapping"
"Picks are for guitarists only"
"Deep lows cause boom problems"
"Slap equals funk"

etc, etc...

WH, instead of saying you see no point to biamping because it didn't work for you in the past, consider what the frequency response plot of your rig would have been when run fullrange and run biamped. Also consider how the power handling changed when biamping. If the rig was the typical 10" for the top and 15" or 18" for the bottom, you biamping would cause the loss of a midrange hump where both cabs are working together (which gets you heard and sounds fat) and also reduce the power handling and max LF SPL as the 10"s are no longer contributing to the bottom. Bad idea.

MoJ, I'm not attacking you I'm just asking you to consider this less simplistically. Sound reproduction, like music, is not a tidy affair - you cannot just say fullrange is good, biamping is bad, just as you cannot say diatonic harmony is good, dissonance is bad.

There is a ton of information out there - when you want to know something google it, use wikipedia, ask questions on forums, but more importantly make an effort to understand WHY.

And FWIW, I do not biamp and never have. I am intending to biamp with my next rig but only because that is what will work best for those particular speakers. Each case is different.

Alex

[Rich]

Alex, this is all very well, but you've missed the [i]really[/i] important question.

Do you, or do you not, like tuna on your pizza?

[MoJ]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='15020' date='Jun 10 2007, 12:54 PM']Check out this website, there is a lot of good reading here:

[url="http://sound.westhost.com/articles.htm"]http://sound.westhost.com/articles.htm[/url]

---------

My personal bugbear is the habit I repeatedly encounter of people trying something, hearing a qualitative result and thus deciding that X always equals Y without ever questioning why that might be. It is repeated all over the place in such quotes as:

"You can't slap on a P-bass"
"Fifteen inch speakers sound slow"
"The bigger the speaker the lower it goes"
"Rear ported cabs don't work properly without a wall behind them"
"You have to play behind the beat on reggae"
"Less is always more"
"You have to cut your mids when slapping"
"Picks are for guitarists only"
"Deep lows cause boom problems"
"Slap equals funk"

etc, etc...

WH, instead of saying you see no point to biamping because it didn't work for you in the past, consider what the frequency response plot of your rig would have been when run fullrange and run biamped. Also consider how the power handling changed when biamping. If the rig was the typical 10" for the top and 15" or 18" for the bottom, you biamping would cause the loss of a midrange hump where both cabs are working together (which gets you heard and sounds fat) and also reduce the power handling and max LF SPL as the 10"s are no longer contributing to the bottom. Bad idea.

MoJ, I'm not attacking you I'm just asking you to consider this less simplistically. Sound reproduction, like music, is not a tidy affair - you cannot just say fullrange is good, biamping is bad, just as you cannot say diatonic harmony is good, dissonance is bad.

There is a ton of information out there - when you want to know something google it, use wikipedia, ask questions on forums, but more importantly make an effort to understand WHY.

And FWIW, I do not biamp and never have. I am intending to biamp with my next rig but only because that is what will work best for those particular speakers. Each case is different.

Alex[/quote]

Cool, glad we cleared that up. Thanks.
I agree that there are many things dicussed on this forum that are not (but will be) quantifiable with a simple statement, but it would have been easier had you pointed this out to begin with.
I shouldve had said "...if dont like the outcome of bi-amping...".
By all accounts though, you think that bi-amping will not "sound" any different than full range, other than more control over that sound? This may be over simplifying too and what Im not saying is that I would be dissapointed if this would be the case, as Im looking to have more control over my sound.

Im going to google bi-amping and maybe try wikipedia (with a pinch of salt), but that was why I started here. I know that there are some people far knowledable and with more expeirence than myself so seemed the like the best way to start. Iwill though, do more research into this subject, and take a look at the link you posted as I would like to have a better understanding of bi-amping.

Oh, and can I correct you? Dissonance gooooooood!

Thanks
Andy

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='15020' date='Jun 10 2007, 12:54 PM']WH, instead of saying you see no point to biamping because it didn't work for you in the past, consider what the frequency response plot of your rig would have been when run fullrange and run biamped. Also consider how the power handling changed when biamping. If the rig was the typical 10" for the top and 15" or 18" for the bottom, you biamping would cause the loss of a midrange hump where both cabs are working together (which gets you heard and sounds fat) and also reduce the power handling and max LF SPL as the 10"s are no longer contributing to the bottom. Bad idea.

Alex[/quote]

I think you may have misunderstood me Alex.

I [b]can[/b] see the point of bi-amping, I've not disputed there is a point to it! My first attempts at bi-amping 20 years ago with a GK 800rb did indeed involve 10's & 15's. I tried it 10 years after that with a pre/power rig with only 10's and 'again' a few years back with Hartke cabs (strangely that sounded better with the lows going to the 10's and the highs to the 15). I know it would be more efficient and [b]if[/b] using cabs specifically designed/made for the job, then it may well make an audible improvement to the sound. I also now understand why I didn't like the sound of the bi-amp rigs that I ran, the crossover point is where the vital frequencies are heard and I was no doubt losing some of the midrange punch whilst getting reduced SPL.

What I was trying to point out was the (pathetic) attempts that I made at bi-amping didn't produce an improvement in tone, it may have been more efficient etc but it didn't sound better. If you guys can achieve (via your x-overs and custom design cabs) what I didn't get with my attempts then I'd love to hear about it, or better still hear it in person. I get the feeling that we actually agree that the application of a bi-amp rig for your average gigging musician using gear readily available from the shop floor is not good!