Have you dabbled with MIDI?

[Kiwi]

For those of you who I've not managed to ear bash yet, I've been having on going issues with Pro Tools M Powered and my Delta 1010 sound card. Not necessarily blaming the products for my problems but after dealing with a set of compatibility and installation issues, I've now been told that the Delta doesn't have its own MIDI synthesis chip so I have to hook Pro Tools up to either a soft synth or external hardware.

But thats not the point of this post - I've snagged myself an ex-demo Yamaha CS6R sound module for making trancey type noises and I was wondering how many others on the forum regularly work with MIDI?

I know already that TheBrokenDoor does for his live performances, are there any others who use it either for performing or recording?

[paul, the]

My dad bought a POD for his guitar.


After hours online and reading through manuals, I've concluded that the fabled MIDI is some sort of cult philosophy or jah of mystic religion. I'm confident the MIDI will kill us all.

[wizbat]

I think your main problem lies in the name on one of the boxes of the kit you have... digideswotnot used it, Headache usually follows, good luck with their customer support!

[wizbat]

[quote name='paul, the' post='12136' date='Jun 4 2007, 10:47 PM']My dad bought a POD for his guitar.
After hours online and reading through manuals, I've concluded that the fabled MIDI is some sort of cult philosophy or jah of mystic religion. I'm confident the MIDI will kill us all.[/quote]


The RS 232 chip is gonna kill ya!!!! ( the chip wot duz MIDI)

[Kiwi]

[quote name='wizbat' post='12140' date='Jun 4 2007, 10:52 PM']I think your main problem lies in the name on one of the boxes of the kit you have... digideswotnot used it, Headache usually follows, good luck with their customer support![/quote]
Well their customer support has been OK, but there's only so much information that can be put in email or on the DUC forum. I need someone experienced to have a poke around and tell me if its the PC or my understanding which is the problem! Honestly, if its not one issue, its another with this set up! I used Steinberg Cubase VST before this and it all worked fine.

[Dood]

Hi Steve! I have never really dabbled with external MIDI gear, except for my Korg X3 workstation. Bit knackered now, but has a whole host of Dream Theater type sounds on. (Indeed, Derek Sherinian used to play one, way back)

My only other 'MIDI' stuff has all been in the 'virtual' world, using VST instruments to make my noises. Never really got a hold of working with them, but they have been a lot easier to get hold of than their hardware equivalents.

I have messed about with BFD for drums, Halion and Sampletank for synth noises and used amplitube and Ampeg SVX for guitar and bass noises respectively. They all have MIDI functionality in one way or another.


The only other MIDI I do is between my foot controller and my effects unit.

[slaphappygarry]

I use alot of midi but Pro tools has its own FREE soft synth here steve:

[url="http://digidesign.com/index.cfm?navid=115&langid=100&itemid=4784"]http://digidesign.com/index.cfm?navid=115&...amp;itemid=4784[/url]

Its pretty decent too. May be the answer to all your prayers. Its one of these additional bits of software they ship with all their new PTS versions but its here for all the folk who bought an older version.

G

[Kiwi]

Noone on the DUC forum bothered telling me about this. That's good isn't it?

Did they charge you £6 for sending a CD without a box?

[slaphappygarry]

You can just download it from the website man, no cd, no hassle.

Simple as pie.

Give 'us a shout in future eh

G

[DanOwens]

For anyone wanting more info, here's the PMs I sent to Steve:

Hi Steve.

Re: sounds, if you know of any midi synths (Korg MS series, novation K station etc), you'll know that the quality of sound from the box is amazing. As long as you know about synthesis you can make pretty much any sound you want (patching an envelope generator to the filter cutoff via the modulation matrix will create a filter sweep).

The Axon's onboard GM card is pretty sh#te and I defo recommend getting a synth too!!

DaN

Hi Steve.

The Axon is pretty good at handling the lower notes. Timing-wise it's not bob-on but its pretty close, defo close enough for live work. There are some problems with the system that are unforseeable and VERY annoying. I did a gig on Thursday night and my reoccuring problem of 'double triggering' crept up again. This is when the note sounds when the 'note on' message is played but doesn't sustain; it also plays a staccato note when the 'note off' message is sent. VERY ANNOYING!!!!!

It's absolutely fine with chords because each string has it's own pickup (I use the roland GK3b).

In summary, it's not perfect, but I can't get sine waves that low with a bass guitar so I put up with it!!!

DaN

[Kiwi]

Dan

Whats involved in installing a MIDI pickup on a bass? How do you go from taking out of the box to making noises? Do you have any opinions on how the Roland, Axon and Yamaha systems compare to one another?

[BigRedX]

I've been working with MIDI devices since they became available in 1983.

My last band used a massively complicated live MIDI setup that included automated patch changing for the guitar and bass amps/FX, drum modules, two racks of synths/samplers and automated FOH mixing for all the drums and sequenced sounds, all driven from the MIDI file player part of an Akai S2000.

My playing style is way too messy to bee able to use a conventional guitar or bass with a MIDI pickup, but for studio work I've had some success with using a Yamaha EZEG as a way of inputting guitar-style MIDI data into the sequencer. If you're after synthy sounds from your bass I've found it much easier to use MIDI controlled effects on a normal bass output, but to get the best out of them it may involve working with sequencers which might be a non-starrter live.

As for ProTools - in my experience you only get predictable results and useful tech support if you're using DigiDesign hardware (nowadays that means ProTool HD) otherwise you get the usual passing of the buck between the hardware and software manufacturers.

[dr.funk]

I have had a go at using a pitch to midi converter on ableton live. Quite difficult to get it to trigger properly though.. I imagine if you got piezo saddles and split the output for each string (or used the roland system..) you could improve it alot.

I'm currently saving for some midi gear myself to try with the band based around Live as the controller.

[DanOwens]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='12413' date='Jun 5 2007, 12:11 PM']Whats involved in installing a MIDI pickup on a bass? How do you go from taking out of the box to making noises? Do you have any opinions on how the Roland, Axon and Yamaha systems compare to one another?[/quote]

Hey Steve,

It's such a very detailed process, not to mention that every piece of equipment used is different, that its difficult to describe how one goes about it all. One thing I would recommend is 'MIDI for the Professional' by Lehrman and Tully ([url="http://www.amazon.com/Midi-Professional-Paul-D-Lehrman/dp/0825613744"]Amazon Link Here[/url]). It'll help you get up to scratch on CCs and the like (if you need it, and I did despite using midi for a good few years).

As far as pickup installation goes, it's really a question of whether you want to drill into the bass and be able to adjust pickup height or just use double-sided sticky tape. Personally, if I was to buy another midi system it's HAVE to include the Hipshot Ghost system and lose the hulking bit of plastic that hangs of the bass.

Unfortunately I have had only second-hand experience of the various midi systems on the market. "Roland is good to a point, no-one uses Yamaha and Axon is the best" are generally the opinions I recieve (to be very blunt about it).

DaN

[Kiwi]

That [url="http://www.graphtech.com/downloads/ghost/ghost_brochure.pdf"]hipshot ghost[/url] system looks the biz. It even works with the Axon controller!

Would you prefer to use a fretted or fretless bass as a MIDI controller?

[BigRedX]

The fretted/fretless thing came up on a similar thread back in BW days.

MIDI was original designed to allow keyboard synths to communicate with each other. Therefore the "note" bytes are set to western style semi-tone steps. This makes sense on a fretted bass where the frets are trying to do the same thing. In a default setting, string bends and finger vibrato are dealt with using pitch bend information on top of the note information. In order to track the notes on a fretless bass the pitch to MIDI conversion first has to work out which note you're closest to and the apply the correct amount of pich bend information on top of that to match the actual note being produced. More work for the processor and slightly more lag on the MIDI conversion.

It's no surprise that the until the Axon system came out the most successful bass to MIDI systems used instruments with modified necks so that fretting info as well as actual pitch was used to determine MIDI note info.

In the end you're going to have to modify your playing technique to get the best out of a MIDI bass unless you're simply going to use it in the studio as a programming tool. IMO using a fretted bass will require less modification to your playing. However there's no denying that if you can make it work for you fretless will be more expressive.

[Kiwi]

Well the Yamaha CR6R arrived today and I've just spent the last hour flicking through all the patches, getting acquainted. There's some great sounds on there! Only I still haven't resolved my MIDI issue and you know what? I think the card is to blame because I've set everything to recieve/transmit on Channel 1 and I'm not getting any light on the MIDI out despite MIDI thru being selected.

I think thats what the problem is. Its likely that the installation didn't fully detect the card (again). The only way I've solved this problem in the past is by doing a complete rebuild with Windows, letting it detect the card during the installation process. I might see if I can do a repair or something though. I've got the OS backed up as an image on CD so I can reinstall it no problem.

[BOD2]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='13776' date='Jun 7 2007, 07:53 PM']Its likely that the installation didn't fully detect the card (again). The only way I've solved this problem in the past is by doing a complete rebuild with Windows, letting it detect the card during the installation process. I might see if I can do a repair or something though. I've got the OS backed up as an image on CD so I can reinstall it no problem.[/quote]


Can you not completely uninstall and remove the card then re-install just the card ? (you've probably tried this already).

I've used MIDI a little, but only to program a MIDI controller to talk to a Bass POD. I found it useful to have [url="http://www.midiox.com/"]MIDI-OX[/url] on my computer to help figure out what was going on.

Other than the that the only problem I had was that I had to add 1 to all the MIDI Program Change values listed in the manual to get things to work (they ran from 1 to 128 rather than 0 to 127).

[Kiwi]

Hey BOD2, looks like I don't need to rebuild Windows after all because I've finally sorted out all my problems.

I had a copy of Xpand arrive today in the post and I installed that into ProTools as well.

In 10 mins Slaphappygarry gave me a couple of pointers on MSN this evening - like where to set up the Inserts and I finally heard ProTools play MIDI!!!

[i](CUE: Crowds cheering, bands playing, fireworks etc. )[/i]

Then I figured out how to set up the Yamaha CS6R using an Instrument track, set the Yammie up to recieve on the right channel and had Xpand running on Channel 1, with the Yammie on Channel 2!! All routed through the Delta 1010 patch bay for audio. It's funny how sometimes it can be just one thing that is the key to unlocking everything else.

It all sounds awesome and more importantly, IT ALL WORKS PERFECTLY

[slaphappygarry]

at long last

Now, go use it

G

[Kiwi]

Yeah, and to get the thread back on track. I didn't start it because of my problems

I just wanted to see how many people have used MIDI. Its not normally something us down-to-earth bassists like to dabble in, is it?

[dr.funk]

Congratulations on getting it sorted..

Steve have a look at this, its a free pitch to midi vst (not sure if protools supports vst?) but it is great fun triggering synth sounds from the bass. Should track nicely on the high C I should think..[url="http://www.sonicspot.com/synodeia/synodeia.html"]Synodeia[/url]

I was fooling around with some audio triggered synths earlier in live, they are great fun and make you approach playing in a different way which is always a good thing I think..

[Kiwi]

Hey Chris, thanks for that! It might come in useful for triggering synth bass lines in a more realistic manner. I've already got a keyboard controller for the chordy bits.

[redroque]

bit late in the day but any way - i use a 2 x keyboard, 1 x module midi set up + vsti's in Cubase SX3 and external digitech/TC/lexicon fx units also controlled via midi (on/bypass/prog change/mod levels/decay/ delay tempo/feedback etc. It connects to the mac vis a MOTU MidiTimepiece AV - almost vintage these days but reliable!
max

[Kiwi]

[quote name='redroque' post='14735' date='Jun 9 2007, 06:38 PM']bit late in the day[/quote]

No way Max, not late at all. I was thinking it would be kind of nice to set up a discussion on using MIDI for all those were interested. Thats kind of why I was testing the water.