Soundguys That Want To Di My Guitar But Not My Amp

[digitalmetal]

Hi,
At every gig ive ever done the sound guy has wanted to DI my bass guitar directly and feed my amp a parallel of the DI box to get my sound to the PA system.
Ive always gone along with what they wanted in order to not cause a fuss and presumed they know best etc.
Ive never really thought too much about it until my last gig when i could hear the PA quite prominently and noted that it was not anything like "my sound" that i had carefully crafted using the controls on my bass amp.
In fact i thought it sounded awful and nothing like i wanted myself or my band to sound like.
I have a quite nice amp, an Ampreg SVT-5 Pro that has transformer balanced DI outputs on the back and id like to ask your opinions on me insisting that the DI comes from my amp in future?
Now i understand the sound guys motives for simplicity and consistency on his part but if the sound he is putting out to the crowd is nothing like the sound i want (after all punters are coming to hear my band not his interpretation of how my band should sound).

Any thoughts ?

If it helps at all for my sound i EQ to taste removing any high end popping/twang and add a little gain drive to warm and thicken things up - i play Metal FWIW.

Thanks!

[woodster]

He's also covering his backside in case your amp fails....

Most soundmen don't know you or your equipment, whether you look after it or not so he's guarding agaist every eventuality.

[charic]

I would say you should be able to do it your way. The last time I was at a gig and the sound engineer was dire was at a mates gig. When they weren't looking I quickly tweaked the mics and swapped out the sm57 on the guitar cab to use the DI (line6 amp, great DI) and all of a sudden people were complimenting the sound.

Ofcourse the best method really is to say "would you mind if we tried this instead?". If he says no at this point he's unreasonable and you SHOULD kick up a fuss. Demand the guitarists do the same

[geoffbyrne]

Get an MXR-80+, set up your sound as close as possible on that & get them to DI out of that, plus it feeds your amp too.

G.

Edited January 25, 2011 by geoffbyrne

[cheddatom]

I always got the soundman to mic my amp(s) in addition to his DI straight from the bass. I would politely ask that he just use the DI for the low end, and most of them seemed to oblige.

[Toasted]

There's one sure-fire way to make sure your bass fader stays at 0 all night.

[slobluesine]

i NEVER let them take the feed direct from my Bass, had lots of battles

a lot of small clubs seem to employ so called sound people these days, i make them take a feed from my amp and turn it off whenever i get a chance

they rarely even realise

[jakenewmanbass]

I guess I've been mostly fortunate with sound engineers. The good ones will come and listen to your sound and then replicate. If they don't then you need to apply a bit of pressure.

[Doctor J]

The sound engineer shouldn't be viewed as an enemy, he's there to make your band sound as good as possible. There's nothing extra in it for him for you to sound sh*t either.

Did you talk to him, tell him about your tone, about the sound your band is going for or just say nothing, watch him set up in his own way and then complain that he didn't mind read and get the tone in your head via telepathy?

When you enter the venue, seek out the engineer, shake his hand and offer to buy him a beer. If you have a stage plan, even better, you'll make his and your evenings so much easier. You'll be amazed how receptive an engineer can be if you engage with him and if he thinks your band knows what they're doing. If he's the regular house engineer he'll know what works and what doesn't work in that particular room. Between the two of you, you can come to an understanding which benefits you both. It's so very easy.

If you just ignore him, it's no wonder that he'll just assume you're another crap band and take as many of the variables (bizarre amp settings you may have - who knows?) out of the equasion. Fighting the work the engineer is trying to do by changing volume levels on stage, moving mics, etc is unbelievably stupid and counterproductive. It's astonishing how many musicians don't reaslise that. Talk to the guy.

[digitalmetal]

Thanks everyone for the rapid responses, i get the general feeling i should do what my gut was telling me and insist on my sound be the one that is heard by the crowd and insist that my amp is DI'd not just the guitar.
I dont Feel i should have to but extra gear like DI pedals to double up when i know my sound is how i want it from my amp.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Doctor J' post='1101932' date='Jan 25 2011, 11:46 AM']When you enter the venue, seek out the engineer, shake his hand and offer to buy him a beer [b]after the gig.[/b][/quote]

You don't know the engineer can take his beer.

The best thing to do though, is hire Joe 'Golden Ears' Garcia to be your sound engineer.

[Doddy]

Even taking a line from the amp is no guarantee of getting the sound you want. Club soundmen will still often put all of the bass through the subs and EQ it so that it's all low and undefined.

[digitalmetal]

[quote name='Doctor J' post='1101932' date='Jan 25 2011, 11:46 AM']The sound engineer shouldn't be viewed as an enemy, he's there to make your band sound as good as possible. There's nothing extra in it for him for you to sound sh*t either.[/quote]

some ive come across frankly couldnt care less, maybe they dont like to music or whatever, i dont know,

[quote name='Doctor J' post='1101932' date='Jan 25 2011, 11:46 AM']Did you talk to him, tell him about your tone, about the sound your band is going for or just say nothing, watch him set up in his own way and then complain that he didn't mind read and get the tone in your head via telepathy?[/quote]

I usually am the one who has to speak to the sound guy on the bands behalf so yes i usually do seek them out and introduce myself,
And as far as telepathy goes, he should be able to hear my sound when i play, no guessing necessary


[quote name='Doctor J' post='1101932' date='Jan 25 2011, 11:46 AM']When you enter the venue, seek out the engineer, shake his hand and offer to buy him a beer. If you have a stage plan, even better, you'll make his and your evenings so much easier. You'll be amazed how receptive an engineer can be if you engage with him and if he thinks your band knows what they're doing. If he's the regular house engineer he'll know what works and what doesn't work in that particular room. Between the two of you, you can come to an understanding which benefits you both. It's so very easy.

If you just ignore him, it's no wonder that he'll just assume you're another crap band and take as many of the variables (bizarre amp settings you may have - who knows?) out of the equasion. Fighting the work the engineer is trying to do by changing volume levels on stage, moving mics, etc is unbelievably stupid and counterproductive. It's astonishing how many musicians don't reaslise that. Talk to the guy.[/quote]

i understand what you say but, it is, at the end of the day the guys job to amplify the bands sound no matter how bizzare it might be (it shouldnt matter if we are playing conch shells and whacking sticks together) and present it to the crowd, he really should come and find out about us and our sound if he cares at all about what he is doing.

[Doctor J]

[quote name='digitalmetal' post='1101953' date='Jan 25 2011, 12:05 PM']he really should come and find out about us and our sound if he cares at all about what he is doing.[/quote]

There's your problem.

[digitalmetal]

[quote name='Doctor J' post='1101958' date='Jan 25 2011, 12:08 PM']There's your problem.[/quote]


its not a problem because like i said i[b] DO[/b] go seek them out and explain what we want to them, but ive only ever come across a handful of soundguys who act like they are even remotely interested in what i have to say.

[Doctor J]

[quote name='digitalmetal' post='1101966' date='Jan 25 2011, 12:14 PM']its not a problem because like i said i[b] DO[/b] go seek them out and explain what we want to them, but ive only ever come across a handful of soundguys who act like they are even remotely interested in what i have to say.[/quote]

Fair enough. The guy last night, what did he say about what he did to your sound?

Edited January 25, 2011 by Doctor J

[Lozz196]

Another thing to think of is how any sound will be through the house pa speakers.

"Your sound" is your amp through your speakers. If you change your speakers, from a 4x10 to a 1x15, the dynamics of the sound will change quite a lot, so the sound coming out of pa speakers will be quite different to that out of dedicated bass speakers.

The last gig I did through a house pa was also through an amp that was hired for the day long event, an Aguilar set-up. All throughout the day, the bass had sounded great with every band, each using different basses. Yet when I plugged into it I thought it sounded weedy and uninspiring, however, as I knew it sounded great out front, I was happy to go with it.

The bass is probably one of the most difficult to get exactly right through a pa, and, unfortunate though it may be, is also probably the sound that most people in the audience don`t either know, or care about. Unless the bass has effects, or gain, in which case DI-ing the amp is necessary, usually a sound engineer will get a good sound that fits whatever way they do it.

[artisan]

stick to your guns mate,the sound eng's job is as you say "to amplify your sound" period.
if he thinks tweeking it a tad may improove that sound then he should discuss it with you first,but ultimately it is your sound so the final say is yours.
some engineers are just lazy bastards & take the easy option,but unfortunaley for them i'm big enough + agressive enough (only when needs be) to put my point accross effectively .
however i do find most to be receptive to good constructive input & very good at their job,but i'd never buy one a pint.

Edited January 25, 2011 by artisan

[digitalmetal]

[quote name='Doctor J' post='1101972' date='Jan 25 2011, 12:20 PM']Fair enough. The guy last night, what did he say about what he did to your sound?[/quote]

The guy who did sound for us on our last gig, wasnt interested he just wanted us on and off the stage as fast as possible,


i know most of the time that the crowd dont even notice but it makes a massive difference to how you feel and how you play if you know the sound is somewhere near how you would like it.
It was making me wince every time i hit any higher strings it was sounding like i was a popping slapping funk player, so i rolled my high end tone right back on my bass' eq which went someway to improving it but trying to sort it mid gig is too late imo and we didnt get given a proper soundcheck because the soundguy started setting up too late, we had been there for a couple of hours waiting.

just another one to put down to experience i guess, but i dont want to sound like that ever again - hence my posting here.

[Doctor J]

The reason I ask is because generally, for Metal, this
[quote]i EQ to taste removing any high end popping/twang and add a little gain drive to warm and thicken things up[/quote]

often doesn't work in a live setting, especially if you've got guitarists who do a lot of low chugging riffwork and if your drummer is fond of double bass drumming - there can be a lot of instruments trying to fill the same low frequency space. I can quite easily see why an engineer might brighten up your bass tone in order for it to be heard, rather than disappear in a sea of low end mud.

I can't access any of your links in work, blocked, can't hear your stuff so could be a mile off.

[digitalmetal]

[quote name='artisan' post='1101985' date='Jan 25 2011, 12:28 PM']stick to your guns mate,the sound eng's job is as you say "to amplify your sound" period.
if he thinks tweeking it a tad may improove that sound then he should discuss it with you first,but ultimately it is your sound so the final say is yours.
some engineers are just lazy bastards & take the easy option,but unfortunaley for them i'm big enough + agressive enough (only when needs be) to put my point accross effectively .
however i do find most to be receptive to good constructive input & very good at their job,but i'd never buy one a pint.[/quote]


Thanks, very encouraging !

[bassbloke]

[quote name='geoffbyrne' post='1101886' date='Jan 25 2011, 11:19 AM']Get an MXR-80+, set up your sound as close as possible on that & get them to DI out of that, plus it feeds your amp too.

G.[/quote]

+ 1

Or something similar like a SANSAMP BAss DI

[dan670844]

[quote name='digitalmetal' post='1101870' date='Jan 25 2011, 11:10 AM']Hi,
At every gig ive ever done the sound guy has wanted to DI my bass guitar directly and feed my amp a parallel of the DI box to get my sound to the PA system.
Ive always gone along with what they wanted in order to not cause a fuss and presumed they know best etc.
Ive never really thought too much about it until my last gig when i could hear the PA quite prominently and noted that it was not anything like "my sound" that i had carefully crafted using the controls on my bass amp.
In fact i thought it sounded awful and nothing like i wanted myself or my band to sound like.
I have a quite nice amp, an Ampreg SVT-5 Pro that has transformer balanced DI outputs on the back and id like to ask your opinions on me insisting that the DI comes from my amp in future?
Now i understand the sound guys motives for simplicity and consistency on his part but if the sound he is putting out to the crowd is nothing like the sound i want (after all punters are coming to hear my band not his interpretation of how my band should sound).

Any thoughts ?

If it helps at all for my sound i EQ to taste removing any high end popping/twang and add a little gain drive to warm and thicken things up - i play Metal FWIW.

Thanks![/quote]

Alrighty, the sound guy needs a dry signal from you bass usually this is so he can eq the main sound properly to get the main mix right. But the sound guy should always also take a feed from your amp post eq or even a mic'ed cab to colour your sound then he can blend the two together. Then all is well, but most often for the sake of easyness this is overlooked! its a case of insisting that you want it done this way

Edited January 25, 2011 by dan670844

[digitalmetal]

[quote name='bassbloke' post='1101996' date='Jan 25 2011, 12:36 PM']+ 1

Or something similar like a SANSAMP BAss DI[/quote]


if i did that, what would be the point of me lugging a huge great big ampeg (that i can get just the sound im after) around with me?

[digitalmetal]

[quote name='dan670844' post='1101999' date='Jan 25 2011, 12:39 PM']Alrighty, the sound guy needs a dry signal from you bass usually this is so he can eq the main sound properly to get the main mix right. But the sound guy should always also take a feed from your amp post eq or even a mic'ed cab to colour your sound then he can blend the two together. Then all is well, but most often for the sake of easyness this is overlooked! its a case of insisting that you want it done this way[/quote]

Sounds like the right idea, thats exactly what i do when doing a studio mix, wasnt sure about pushing my studio techniques onto a live sound engineer as i know nothing about live sound.